Gold Crown 3 Problem

Bambu said:
Well, I measured the play area today. Just like you guys said, the play area is bigger than it should be(50 1/4 X 100 1/2). I know this probably wont get me very far, but I intend to take this up with Blatt. Like you guys said, they shouldnt have put k-66 rubber on a gc3(even if I requested it). It plays like crap next to any other regulation simonis table, but the k-55's should fix the problem. Thanks again guys. I never would have figured this out by myself!
I called my mechanic, and he suggested getting confirmation from another brunswick dealer, that the k-66 rails never should have been put on. I dont doubt you guys, especially since the play field is not regulation size. In any case, are any of you affiliated with any brunswick dealers? Or, does anyone know who I could call at brunswick? Their site gives very little info. Much thanks-

Bambu
Click to expand...
If your playing surface is as you described, you have more problems that just cushion rubber. If K66 was installed in place of the K55 cushions, it would only grow the playing surface by 1/8" of an inch wider and longer. Do me a favor, measure the distance between the nose of the cushion, and the finish laminate, the distance of the cloth on top of the cushions. If correct, it should be 2" with cloth on. K66 cushions would put it at 1 15/16"ths, if your measurement is right, the distance on your rails would be 1 3/4" across, if that's the case...someone has removed quit a bit of wood from the sub-rails behind the cushions, so let me know what's up.

Glen
 
realkingcobra said:
If your playing surface is as you described, you have more problems that just cushion rubber. If K66 was installed in place of the K55 cushions, it would only grow the playing surface by 1/8" of an inch wider and longer. Do me a favor, measure the distance between the nose of the cushion, and the finish laminate, the distance of the cloth on top of the cushions. If correct, it should be 2" with cloth on. K66 cushions would put it at 1 15/16"ths, if your measurement is right, the distance on your rails would be 1 3/4" across, if that's the case...someone has removed quit a bit of wood from the sub-rails behind the cushions, so let me know what's up.

Glen
Click to expand...

We still need the nose height.

If it is 1 7/16 then I wouldn't think the loss of table speed is due to incorrect cushions.
Isn't k66 on a bwick an Ernesto thing?
 
I'm trying to get better measurements, but its not easy with a regular tape measure. I expected higher, but the rail height looks like 1 7/16 ths. Measurement on cushions, top view- 1 15/16 ths. It seems that the cushion area where the ball actually hits, is 1/8th inch. I measured to the highest portion of the rail that the ball could hit. The cloth is tight, but the bounce is crap. I need to play some of the same shots on other tables by going an extra rail. My mechanic(who has changed the 860 cloth 4 times) acknowledges that the rubber is k-66. He still thinks thats fine to install on a gc3, so he suggests getting proof from brunswick before taking this to Blatt.
 
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Bambu said:
I'm trying to get better measurements, but its not easy with a regular tape measure. I expected higher, but the rail height looks like 1 7/16 ths. Measurement on cushions, top view- 1 15/16 ths. It seems that the cushion area where the ball actually hits, is 1/8th inch. I measured to the highest portion of the rail that the ball could hit. The cloth is tight, but the bounce is crap. I need to play some of the same shots on other tables by going an extra rail. My mechanic(who has changed the 860 cloth 4 times) acknowledges that the rubber is k-66. He still thinks thats fine to install on a gc3, so he suggests getting proof from brunswick before taking this to Blatt.
Click to expand...

Well as someone who has both sold and installed brunswick tables for ten years, I have never seen a unmodified gold crown with K66 cushions. it is the wrong profile and the table would have to be modified to make them work correctly. Now I have seen Intercontinental 66 cushions put on but they are the correct profile.
 
Bambu said:
I'm trying to get better measurements, but its not easy with a regular tape measure. I expected higher, but the rail height looks like 1 7/16 ths. Measurement on cushions, top view- 1 15/16 ths. It seems that the cushion area where the ball actually hits, is 1/8th inch. I measured to the highest portion of the rail that the ball could hit. The cloth is tight, but the bounce is crap. I need to play some of the same shots on other tables by going an extra rail. My mechanic(who has changed the 860 cloth 4 times) acknowledges that the rubber is k-66. He still thinks thats fine to install on a gc3, so he suggests getting proof from brunswick before taking this to Blatt.
Click to expand...
I think we were expecting to hear you say 1 1/2" or higher.
1 7/16" is the correct and preferred nose height.
Use a ruler instead of the tape measure and check all the rails.

Assuming the rails are tight and were correctly modified to use k66 I'd shoot off the cuff and say that with correct cushion height, tight servicable cloth and a good ball set that you may just have a cheap set of cushions.
 
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Bambu said:
I'm trying to get better measurements, but its not easy with a regular tape measure. I expected higher, but the rail height looks like 1 7/16 ths. Measurement on cushions, top view- 1 15/16 ths. It seems that the cushion area where the ball actually hits, is 1/8th inch. I measured to the highest portion of the rail that the ball could hit. The cloth is tight, but the bounce is crap. I need to play some of the same shots on other tables by going an extra rail. My mechanic(who has changed the 860 cloth 4 times) acknowledges that the rubber is k-66. He still thinks thats fine to install on a gc3, so he suggests getting proof from brunswick before taking this to Blatt.
Click to expand...
Either Blatt don't know what they're doing, or your mechanic has no idea what he's talking about, the latter being my guess. I don't believe in any way shape or form, that Blatt would install K66 cushions on ANY Brunswick table, let alone a GC. From the point of the cushions, to the seam of the cushion where it's glued up to the sub-rail, if it measures 1 1/8", it's K66, if it measures 1 3/16", it's Brunswick Superspeed, if it measures 1 1/4" it's K55, the measurement will be just a little longer with cloth installed on the cushions. If you feel the top of the rail, you can feel where the seam is, you may even have a line right there through the cloth if the rail/cushions were not sanded together, but you can still tell. Measure that for me, and report that here.

Glen

PS. By the way, Artemis Intercontinental K66 (K55) profile, is 1 3/16" nose to back. Take some pictures of the side pockets looking down the length of the rails to the corner pockets, so I can see the profile of the cushions, post them here as well.
 
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Thanks for talking to me about the problem today, Glen. I am glad to have found such an expert as yourself, as well as the rest of this group. I took some pictures, but I'm not sure how clear they will look.

Here is the first, of the length of the table playing area. I used a piece of chalk in the middle of the tape. It wasnt perfectly straight, but about 100 1/2

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08067.jpg

And here is the short rail measurement, also nose to nose(about 50 3/8ths).

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08063.jpg

This is the rail height, just shy of 1.5 inches, though I found a couple of other spots that were slightly higher. I'm not sure if thats far enough down the rail as you need to be able to tell anything, but I can take more shots if anyone thinks it might help.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08065.jpg

This last shot shows the rubber measurement from an overhead perspective, 1 15/16ths.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08064.jpg

I had not mentioned this, but I also have one corner pocket that isnt very forgiving after about 6 mos. of cloth wear. After that period, the balls dont go down as cleanly as the other corners.
 
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Bambu said:
Thanks for talking to me about the problem today, Glen. I am glad to have found such an expert as yourself, as well as the rest of this group. I took some pictures, but I'm not sure how clear they will look.

Here is the first, of the length of the table playing area. I used a piece of chalk in the middle of the tape. It wasnt perfectly straight, but about 100 1/2

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08067.jpg

And here is the short rail measurement, also nose to nose(about 50 3/8ths).

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08063.jpg

This is the rail height, just shy of 1.5 inches, though I found a couple of other spots that were slightly higher. I'm not sure if thats far enough down the rail as you need to be able to tell anything, but I can take more shots if anyone thinks it might help.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08065.jpg

This last shot shows the rubber measurement from an overhead perspective, 1 15/16ths.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08064.jpg

I had not mentioned this, but I also have one corner pocket that isnt very forgiving after about 6 mos. of cloth wear. After that period, the balls dont go down as cleanly as the other corners.
Click to expand...
Measure all the cushions from nose to laminate, do they all read the same? Looks like your end rail is about 1 3/4" from nose to back in the picture.

Glen
 
Yes, thanks. All came to 1 15/16ths, but i didnt check in more than 3 or 4 places. I'm not sure what you mean by 1 3/4ths though. I must be missing something. Was the measurement in the pic done wrong?
 
Bambu said:
Yes, thanks. All came to 1 15/16ths, but i didnt check in more than 3 or 4 places. I'm not sure what you mean by 1 3/4ths though. I must be missing something. Was the measurement in the pic done wrong?
Click to expand...
RE: your first pic > http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08067.jpg
This pic showing the long measurement of 100 1/2 has the tape frame covering the point where the cloth meets the laminate.
Glen is making an approximation that the nose to laminate on that end rail is 1 3/4 . If the tape frame was extended a bit
more we could see the nose to laminate measurement for that rail.

Can you reshoot the nose height measurement so we can get a better look at the reading on the ruler.
With a hard squint it looks like 1 1/2

When the cushion nose is high it tends to reduce the ball bounce = slow table.
 
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Thanks dartman, but doesnt the other pic here show what youre looking for? (Top view rubber, 1 15/16ths.) That measurement appeared to be consistent throughout. I will try to get a better shot of the rail height. The height went up to 1 1/2 in a few spots, correct. I emailed brunswick, and they said you guys were right, gold crown 3's came with k-55. Too bad its too late to complain, I do feel ripped off.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08064.jpg

Here is a copy of my receipt, in case nobody believes blatt put k-66 on a GC 3.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/blattreciept.png

Dartman said:
RE: your first pic > http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08067.jpg
This pic showing the long measurement of 100 1/2 has the tape frame covering the point where the cloth meets the laminate.
Glen is making an approximation that the nose to laminate on that end rail is 1 3/4 . If the tape frame was extended a bit
more we could see the nose to laminate measurement for that rail.

Can you reshoot the nose height measurement so we can get a better look at the reading on the ruler.
With a hard squint it looks like 1 1/2

When the cushion nose is high it tends to reduce the ball bounce = slow table.
Click to expand...
 
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Bambu said:
Thanks dartman, but doesnt the other pic here show what youre looking for? (Top view rubber, 1 15/16ths.) That measurement appeared to be consistent throughout. I will try to get a better shot of the rail height.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08064.jpg

Here is a copy of my receipt, in case nobody believes blatt put k-66 on a GC 3.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/blattreciept.png
Click to expand...
I can't put my finger on it yet, but something else is wrong with your table. On a GC, the playing surface is measured from laminate to laminate, being 54" x 104" then subtract the cushion width at 2" each, which leaves 50" x 100"...K66 cushions will only change the inside playing surface by an 1/8" inch in size to 50 1/8"th x 100 1/8"th, but you're showing 100 1/2" long in the playing surface, so I'm trying to figure out where the extra 3/8" is missing. Do me a favor, measure the table from laminate to laminate, let me know what that reads. I'm wondering if the pocket castings are actually GC3's, as I've only seen Chrome on the Black Hi-tech, and Bronze on the Rosewood GC's...I don't know what it is, but something else is wrong, besides the cushions.

Glen
 
Bambu said:
Thanks dartman, but doesnt the other pic here show what youre looking for? (Top view rubber, 1 15/16ths.) That measurement appeared to be consistent throughout. I will try to get a better shot of the rail height. The height went up to 1 1/2 in a few spots, correct. I emailed brunswick, and they said you guys were right, gold crown 3's came with k-55. Too bad its too late to complain, I do feel ripped off.
Click to expand...
The other pic did show the nose to laminate measurement just fine.
You had a question about what RKC was asking so just thought I'd restate what he was asking a bit clearer.

Had to laugh when I saw your addy on the receipt being Elmhurst and I think you had said Blatt was your "local" dealer.
Seems like a long way to go even using the BQE.
 
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Dartman, Blatt is only 5 miles away from here(so I'm not sure what you mean).

Here is a better shot of the rail height:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08072.jpg


These are the shots of the laminate measurements, laminate to laminate. I used 2 pieces of chalk in the middle of the tape this time, and it looked a little straighter.
Footrail to headrail, laminate to laminate, right side 104 3/16ths:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08069.jpg

On the short side it comes to 54 1/16th, but probably closer to 54 1/32nd.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08071.jpg


In measuring from the opposite sides I saw some variance, but those shots didnt come out. I thought I saw maybe 1/8th of difference from side to side, but I will have to double check. Gotta go before the wife kills me. Peace!




Dartman said:
The other pic did show the nose to laminate measurement just fine.
You had a question about what RKC was asking so just thought I'd restate what he was asking a bit clearer.

Had to laugh when I saw your addy on the receipt being Elmhurst and I think you had said Blatt was your "local" dealer.
Seems like a long way to go even using the BQE.
Click to expand...
 
Bambu said:
Dartman, Blatt is only 5 miles away from here(so I'm not sure what you mean).

Here is a better shot of the rail height:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08072.jpg


These are the shots of the laminate measurements, laminate to laminate. I used 2 pieces of chalk in the middle of the tape this time, and it looked a little straighter.
Footrail to headrail, laminate to laminate, right side 104 3/16ths:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08069.jpg

On the short side it comes to 54 1/16th, but probably closer to 54 1/32nd.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08071.jpg


In measuring from the opposite sides I saw some variance, but those shots didnt come out. I thought I saw maybe 1/8th of difference from side to side, but I will have to double check. Gotta go before the wife kills me. Peace!
Click to expand...
Take some pictures of the pocket castings please, I'd like to see them.
 
Glen, do you mean an overhead shot of the pockets? One corner and one side? Sorry, but I'm not sure what angle you want, or measurements, if any.
 
Bambu said:
Glen, do you mean an overhead shot of the pockets? One corner and one side? Sorry, but I'm not sure what angle you want, or measurements, if any.
Click to expand...
What I'd like to see, is if the pocket castings are GC3's, which are slightly smaller than GC1's & 2's. That could explain why your playing surface is bigger that it's suppose to be. It would also mean you bought a scabbed together GC3. As far as the playability of the table goes, that's in the cushions, as in what kind of cushions were installed, and how the installation was done. I'm now questioning Blatt, for the job done on your table, as to why they would install K66 cushions on a GC in the first place, it's wrong, fact speaking, not my opinion, it would also be wrong to use GC1 or 2 pocket castings.

Glen
 
realkingcobra said:
What I'd like to see, is if the pocket castings are GC3's, which are slightly smaller than GC1's & 2's. That could explain why your playing surface is bigger that it's suppose to be. It would also mean you bought a scabbed together GC3. As far as the playability of the table goes, that's in the cushions, as in what kind of cushions were installed, and how the installation was done. I'm now questioning Blatt, for the job done on your table, as to why they would install K66 cushions on a GC in the first place, it's wrong, fact speaking, not my opinion, it would also be wrong to use GC1 or 2 pocket castings.

Glen
Click to expand...
The rails are not OEM
Per the OP - he paid for "new rails" and specified k66 cushions.
I'd speculate that Blatt fabricated a set of new rails that don't match perfectly to the table.
 
It does look like a scabbed table to me, but that was the whole reason I went to Blatt to begin with(so that wouldnt happen). The more I look, the more imperfections I find. Measuring the short way, laminate to laminate, I get at least a 1/16th variance from end to end. Couldnt find any variance when measuring the long way. Thanks again guys. Getting Blatt involved in any way, good will or not would be greatly appreciated.

Head rail- 54 1/8th

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08b007.jpg


Foot Rail-54 3/16ths

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08b008.jpg


And here is a corner pocket shot:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08b011.jpg


Side pocket:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08b015.jpg


Corner pocket, side view:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08b017.jpg


Table, front view:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08b020.jpg



Dartman said:
The rails are not OEM
Per the OP - he paid for "new rails" and specified k66 cushions.
I'd speculate that Blatt fabricated a set of new rails that don't match perfectly to the table.
Click to expand...
 
Bambu said:
It does look like a scabbed table to me, but that was the whole reason I went to Blatt to begin with(so that wouldnt happen). The more I look, the more imperfections I find. Measuring the short way, laminate to laminate, I get at least a 1/16th variance from end to end. Couldnt find any variance when measuring the long way. Thanks again guys. Getting Blatt involved in any way, good will or not would be greatly appreciated.

Head rail- 54 1/8th

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08b007.jpg


Foot Rail-54 3/16ths

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08b008.jpg


And here is a corner pocket shot:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08b011.jpg


Side pocket:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08b015.jpg


Corner pocket, side view:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08b017.jpg


Table, front view:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc34/NYCBambu/Dec08b020.jpg
Click to expand...
I still can't tell, but my guess is that the corner pockets have different openings because the rails are not set right on the corner castings, but that still don't explain why the playing surface is 100 1/2" long:confused:

Glen
 
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