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Bruce S. de Lis
Guest
Well not Rating System is PERFECT, but I guess the system in place will have to do. Until someone can find a Perfect System....
Bruce S. de Lis said:
The rating system itself isn't the biggest problem - it's the application of the rating system. Like I [sort of] said in another post, the whole reason behind a handicap system is so that players at different skill levels can all compete together. However, they use the system here to segregate players. There really is no need for a statewide handicap system if the sole purpose is to segregate players. If that's all they want to do, it can be achieved with far less effort than what it takes to maintain a statewide handicap system with around 10,000 members.
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Bruce S. de Lis
Guest
Jimmy M. said:There really is no need for a statewide handicap system if the sole purpose is to segregate players.
If that's all they want to do, it can be achieved with far less effort than what it takes to maintain a statewide handicap system with around 10,000 members.
10,000 Member Paying How Much to BE PART of the System ?
No charge to be part of the system. But then again, the ratings system has taken hold so firmly here in Az that you can't play in a local tourney without being rated.
Well, you almost can't. The series of 9 events in the Arizona State All Around Championship are not rated.
Mike
Well, you almost can't. The series of 9 events in the Arizona State All Around Championship are not rated.
Mike
Bruce S. de Lis said:
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Bruce S. de Lis
Guest
AzHousePro said:
What you said is TRUE, as I call a couple of place that do Tournments, and they said No Rating CARD. NO PLAY....
Bruce S. de Lis said:
Out of those 10k+, about 1000 shoot pretty sporty and a good 200 (or more) are very dangerous. We also have a good deal of shortstops. Arizona has a very talented pool of pocket billiard players. IMO, we have about 10 to 20 world class players (like trainer and JimmyM). Even old timers like Cliff Thayer can be spotted.
You ought to get out to some of the local pool halls to watch our best players. It's a real pleasure...
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Bruce S. de Lis
Guest
Hooked said:
What is it when you said:
"We also have a good deal of shortstops."
Well, it ain't hard to get one. Wanna borrow mine?Bruce S. de Lis said:What you said is TRUE, as I call a couple of place that do Tournments, and they said No Rating CARD. NO PLAY....
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Bruce S. de Lis
Guest
Ted Harris said:
Ted thanks for the Offer, but I do not want to Borrow Your Card that say I am Ted Harris, and Rated an "11" on a 4-10 SCALE.
Bruce S. de Lis said:What you said is TRUE, as I call a couple of place that do Tournments, and they said No Rating CARD. NO PLAY....
You can play on Monday nights at Metro Sports. The only catch is you will have to play your first night as a 10 rated player. After the event you will get a rateing....(I know its stupid, but thats they way its done) ...It's only $7.00 to enter and first is usually about $110...
You won't be able to play in a "something" and under until your officially rated.
I also agree with the other poster that said there are many good players in Arizona...You just don't see them cause ther are no tournaments for them to play in...
BTW...A shortstop is as I understand a player that is well known in his/her area that if an out of towner beats he has pretty much killed his action, or if the out of towner loses...he does not have the dough to continue his action....thus the "shortstop" ....(unless the out of towner "dumps" to a shortstop to create action...and or attempts to get himself labled as a sucker...which could be a lucrative move...if the out of towner is good enough)
Hooked said:
I think you could probably cut that number in half...Of the 10,000 about half only are members so they could play one event and have never played again. Or come into town get a card so they can play an event while they are here and then leave town.
I think the biggest problem is that beacuse of the lack of opportunity to play against a real player, you end up fooling yourself into thinking your actually any good...(because you've learned to win in the "something" and under)...then when you finally get a chance to play in a open event you find yourself unprepared...
I almost think you might be better off not playing at all since your rarely going to find a weekly event that has run out players in it...As soon as you learn to run out....your kicked out....
This handicapp system almost forces you into the gambling world if you want to learn to play with some pressure on the line aganst a run out player...
The biggest problem I see with the ratings is that people don't want to get better to the point where they go up a rating. They just want to be the best ? rated player in town. If you are the best 8-rated player in town, then you are a favorite to cash in as many 8's and under events as you can find. If you are a medium 9-rated player, then you are no longer a favorite to play in the events you can play in. And the higher rated tourneys usually don't offer any additional prize money.
Having your rating raised in Arizona is not a prize for playing well. Most people see it as a punishment for playing well. There are numerous examples of local players who have been raised and spent the next 2 months (until the next committee meeting) playing in events and not even trying so that they can go to the committee and ask to be lowered.
Mike
Having your rating raised in Arizona is not a prize for playing well. Most people see it as a punishment for playing well. There are numerous examples of local players who have been raised and spent the next 2 months (until the next committee meeting) playing in events and not even trying so that they can go to the committee and ask to be lowered.
Mike
Mike ...
You were right on when you said they just want to be
the best ? rated player. We have that problem here in
Kansas too. They like to stay where they feel comfortable
and not have to compete on a higher level. I kind of feel
that leagues have prepetuated this mindset also. They get
use to getting the 'spot' and have no desire to give it up,
even if they really should be higher in handicap.
Most places now try to handicap for participation in events,
and could care less about anything else. Sometimes even,
a player could have just as high or even higher like BCA
average than I do, but in one of their tournaments, I am
always rated higher than them .... which I don't think is fair.
(It's because I am an old money player, and the other onres
have not played money games like I have, so they rate me higher).
You were right on when you said they just want to be
the best ? rated player. We have that problem here in
Kansas too. They like to stay where they feel comfortable
and not have to compete on a higher level. I kind of feel
that leagues have prepetuated this mindset also. They get
use to getting the 'spot' and have no desire to give it up,
even if they really should be higher in handicap.
Most places now try to handicap for participation in events,
and could care less about anything else. Sometimes even,
a player could have just as high or even higher like BCA
average than I do, but in one of their tournaments, I am
always rated higher than them .... which I don't think is fair.
(It's because I am an old money player, and the other onres
have not played money games like I have, so they rate me higher).
B
Bruce S. de Lis
Guest
Well maybe some evening I will venture out, and try and get a Rating. Think i will be a Six or Seven at BEST
Why did the AZ ratings committee request for the ratings list to be removed?AzHousePro said:
BRKNRUNBRKNRUN said:
I wasn't upset about the rating for me -- it was right. My point was --- I hadn't asked to be rated and wasn't playing in any tournaments -- so who decided I needed to be rated without any input from me. And with that rating there was zero tournament play for me if I wanted to have a good game. So your other comment about forcing good players to gamble to get a good game is probably right on. Another thing it has done - and I have played in Phoenix pool rooms (bars) since the 50's - it has driven a lot of good local talent to California tournaments. I know one player who always wins who is seriously contemplating a permanent move for that reason alone. It is sad - I love the game and would love to play in Phoenix.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com
Ok, now I'll admit it was a pay off and corrupt. I was taking big bucks under the table to over rate people. The system is ok but it's how it is used. Most room and bar owners cater to league type and tournament players of a rating between 5 and 8. Tournaments for 8 and under are a dime a dozen. It’s when you’re raised to 9 and above is the kiss of death.
During the time I spent on the committee and talked to numerous players plus owned a bar/pool room, I heard a bunch of whining. Sure there were many cases of over and underrated players, no system is perfect. I tried to run higher rated tournaments, guess what? The lower rated players dropped out and whined about not being able to compete. Some higher rated players whined about giving up so much weight. Had to go back to lower ratings to have a good turn out. I mean we had to make money, you know? I sure won't go into all the details, there are many reasons.
I'd suspect though (as far as the committee) there are a number of people there that couldn't rate a donut much less a players ability. The only way I know to change things as they stand is convince room owners to try different formats. You the players have to support it or it will surely die. The whining will never stop but one day maybe there will be more higher rated tournaments and open events.
Rod
The system is ok but it's how it is used. Most room and bar owners cater to league type and tournament players of a rating between 5 and 8. Tournaments for 8 and under are a dime a dozen. It’s when you’re raised to 9 and above is the kiss of death. During the time I spent on the committee and talked to numerous players plus owned a bar/pool room, I heard a bunch of whining. Sure there were many cases of over and underrated players, no system is perfect. I tried to run higher rated tournaments, guess what? The lower rated players dropped out and whined about not being able to compete. Some higher rated players whined about giving up so much weight. Had to go back to lower ratings to have a good turn out. I mean we had to make money, you know? I sure won't go into all the details, there are many reasons.
I'd suspect though (as far as the committee) there are a number of people there that couldn't rate a donut much less a players ability. The only way I know to change things as they stand is convince room owners to try different formats. You the players have to support it or it will surely die. The whining will never stop but one day maybe there will be more higher rated tournaments and open events.
Rod
But ...
I understand the participation thing, and making money, BUT it actually
undermines one of the main Purposes of Poolplayers everywhere, and that
is to get BETTER. Mediorce players come and go on a whim, true dedicated
Players that are good are LIFERS to the sport. They are the ones that show
up no matter what. THEY are also the ones that spectators like to watch
the most and that attract others to the sport. Who wants to watch someone
that is not SMART enough to improve their game and playing (do you enjoy
watching someone that takes 30-40 minutes to play 1 game of 8 ball ...no,
neither do I ... it's like going to the dentist.) People want to watch good Pool,
not bad Pool. Back in my youth (60'-70's), you didn't play someone until you
felt you were good enough to, and THAT was on you, not a handicap system.
Some might even go so far as to say, that handicapping is for SISSIES.
All these middle level players, that win handicap tournaments get fooled into
thinking they are better than they really are, because they never really play
anyone that is GOOD, and all the high level players that can not compete
in tournaments are more or less abandoned to be on their own. As they say,
you will never know how cold the water is until you stick a toe in...
Most handicap systems I have seen do not move players up in handicap
fast enough when they do improve. And you just end up with everyone
trying to 'sandbag' to stay where they are, because it is comfortable for
them, which IMO, takes away from the sport as much as it is adding
because of the handicapping, participation thing.
Plus you get so and so going around saying they beat one of the very
best players, failing to mention they were getting the breaks, and 5 and out.
You used to survive by your wits and how smart you were, now, the
seller of something is suppose to be 'accountable', or surviving by a
handicap system. It ends up punishing someone that was smart enough,
and worked hard enough to really get good at the sport.
Rod said:Ok, now I'll admit it was a pay off and corrupt. I was taking big bucks under the table to over rate people.
During the time I spent on the committee and talked to numerous players plus owned a bar/pool room, I heard a bunch of whining. Sure there were many cases of over and underrated players, no system is perfect. I tried to run higher rated tournaments, guess what? The lower rated players dropped out and whined about not being able to compete. Some higher rated players whined about giving up so much weight. Had to go back to lower ratings to have a good turn out. I mean we had to make money, you know? I sure won't go into all the details, there are many reasons.
I'd suspect though (as far as the committee) there are a number of people there that couldn't rate a donut much less a players ability. The only way I know to change things as they stand is convince room owners to try different formats. You the players have to support it or it will surely die. The whining will never stop but one day maybe there will be more higher rated tournaments and open events.
Rod
I understand the participation thing, and making money, BUT it actually
undermines one of the main Purposes of Poolplayers everywhere, and that
is to get BETTER. Mediorce players come and go on a whim, true dedicated
Players that are good are LIFERS to the sport. They are the ones that show
up no matter what. THEY are also the ones that spectators like to watch
the most and that attract others to the sport. Who wants to watch someone
that is not SMART enough to improve their game and playing (do you enjoy
watching someone that takes 30-40 minutes to play 1 game of 8 ball ...no,
neither do I ... it's like going to the dentist.) People want to watch good Pool,
not bad Pool. Back in my youth (60'-70's), you didn't play someone until you
felt you were good enough to, and THAT was on you, not a handicap system.
Some might even go so far as to say, that handicapping is for SISSIES.
All these middle level players, that win handicap tournaments get fooled into
thinking they are better than they really are, because they never really play
anyone that is GOOD, and all the high level players that can not compete
in tournaments are more or less abandoned to be on their own. As they say,
you will never know how cold the water is until you stick a toe in...
Most handicap systems I have seen do not move players up in handicap
fast enough when they do improve. And you just end up with everyone
trying to 'sandbag' to stay where they are, because it is comfortable for
them, which IMO, takes away from the sport as much as it is adding
because of the handicapping, participation thing.
Plus you get so and so going around saying they beat one of the very
best players, failing to mention they were getting the breaks, and 5 and out.
You used to survive by your wits and how smart you were, now, the
seller of something is suppose to be 'accountable', or surviving by a
handicap system. It ends up punishing someone that was smart enough,
and worked hard enough to really get good at the sport.
I think they were going through a period when some people were not showing up at meetings and they were afraid that those people were just taking the ratings from the site so they didn't feel they had to go.
That is just a guess though.
Mike
That is just a guess though.
Mike
Ted Harris said: