Got Arizona Billard News, but am CONFUSED.

[BRKNRUN]

BRKNRUN
I wasn't upset about the rating for me -- it was right. My point was --- I hadn't asked to be rated and wasn't playing in any tournaments -- so who decided I needed to be rated without any input from me. And with that rating there was zero tournament play for me if I wanted to have a good game. So your other comment about forcing good players to gamble to get a good game is probably right on. Another thing it has done - and I have played in Phoenix pool rooms (bars) since the 50's - it has driven a lot of good local talent to California tournaments. I know one player who always wins who is seriously contemplating a permanent move for that reason alone. It is sad - I love the game and would love to play in Phoenix.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com

I was not intending to harp on anyone in particular…(especially not you)…..what I say by some is 10’s (in general)…since there are no tournaments to for them to play in, they become bitter on the ratings system because now the major flaw in the system is affecting them directly….The bigger problem is that there are so many “something” and under rated players out there that are not affected by the flaw that don’t care enough to do anything about it….

If I could afford the cost of living and had a job lined up, I would move to California in a heartbeat. I have seen players from Phoenix move there rated no better than a 7 and when they come back a year later they are playing 10 speed. You either get better in California, or you quit. Same thing for Texas.

I remember when I first started playing. I went to Monday night open events that had names like Roger Griffis, Steve Knight, Louie Roberts, Danny Dileberto in the field. I saw pit matches at the Golden 8-ball with Steve Mizerak, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe….The only time you see names like that in this town any more is when they are rolling through town doing a exhibition….You can catch Scott Frost giving some sucker the 6-out on a bar box….but its been years since I’ve seen two big names match up in this town…

Since those days…All I have seen is a steady decline in the overall talent in this town…and (In my opinion) there are quite a few 10 rated players that if they played like they do today 13 years ago in this town they would be rated no higher than a 9…….but then again when do they really get a chance to play in the first place….

I personally wish they would do away with the system, open up the fields and go to ABC format. Unfortunately it would cost me about $300+ a month that I win playing in “something” and unders. I will never get raised though because I never seem to do any good in a open event…

 

[Rod]

I think they were going through a period when some people were not showing up at meetings and they were afraid that those people were just taking the ratings from the site so they didn't feel they had to go.

That is just a guess though.

Mike

I think that is a good guess Mike.

Rod

 

[Rod]

I understand the participation thing, and making money, BUT it actually
undermines one of the main Purposes of Poolplayers everywhere, and that
is to get BETTER. Mediorce players come and go on a whim, true dedicated
Players that are good are LIFERS to the sport. They are the ones that show
up no matter what. THEY are also the ones that spectators like to watch
the most and that attract others to the sport. Who wants to watch someone
that is not SMART enough to improve their game and playing (do you enjoy
watching someone that takes 30-40 minutes to play 1 game of 8 ball ...no,
neither do I ... it's like going to the dentist.) People want to watch good Pool,
not bad Pool. Back in my youth (60'-70's), you didn't play someone until you
felt you were good enough to, and THAT was on you, not a handicap system.
Some might even go so far as to say, that handicapping is for SISSIES.

All these middle level players, that win handicap tournaments get fooled into
thinking they are better than they really are, because they never really play
anyone that is GOOD, and all the high level players that can not compete
in tournaments are more or less abandoned to be on their own. As they say,
you will never know how cold the water is until you stick a toe in...

Most handicap systems I have seen do not move players up in handicap
fast enough when they do improve. And you just end up with everyone
trying to 'sandbag' to stay where they are, because it is comfortable for
them, which IMO, takes away from the sport as much as it is adding
because of the handicapping, participation thing.

Plus you get so and so going around saying they beat one of the very
best players, failing to mention they were getting the breaks, and 5 and out.
You used to survive by your wits and how smart you were, now, the
seller of something is suppose to be 'accountable', or surviving by a
handicap system. It ends up punishing someone that was smart enough,
and worked hard enough to really get good at the sport.

I understand and agree for the most part. However its being blamed on a system. Hell show me a system pool players don't try to beat. Call it sand bagging what ever you like but that happens with any system. Accustats IMO is the best system but who's gonna keep score?

Now lets take that system and say it is used here in Phoenix or in your part of the country, I use to live not that far away from your area years ago.

Ok the room owners decide to hold open tournaments, fine. The same thing can happen. Lower rated players whine, upper rated players do as well ( don't tell me they don't) (they all whine ). Now the room owner decides we'll just play a 300 to 500 rated tournament (as an example). Guess what, its still the same as the owners are doing now. Choosing a midlevel rating to draw the most players.

What I'm trying to say is it's not the system (although we know there are problems within). Its convincing room/bar owners to try something different. Some will many won't. So like any system, players use it and room owners do as well. If one thinks its a poor system, get together as a large group and try to change things. Either that or start your own.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending this system, I could care less now. I've played since early 60's. I know how to make a game then and now. Then you just played, sure once you got smart you started making better games. That wasn't by asking what your rated! LOL Now its that crap, what are you rated. Hell most of them don't even know how to make a game. What would they do without a sheet! ha ha ha I'm on the high side of this rating so I know what others are going through.

Rod

 

[Jimmy M.]

I understand and agree for the most part. However its being blamed on a system. Hell show me a system pool players don't try to beat. Call it sand bagging what ever you like but that happens with any system. Accustats IMO is the best system but who's gonna keep score?

Now lets take that system and say it is used here in Phoenix or in your part of the country, I use to live not that far away from your area years ago.

Ok the room owners decide to hold open tournaments, fine. The same thing can happen. Lower rated players whine, upper rated players do as well ( don't tell me they don't) (they all whine ). Now the room owner decides we'll just play a 300 to 500 rated tournament (as an example). Guess what, its still the same as the owners are doing now. Choosing a midlevel rating to draw the most players.

What I'm trying to say is it's not the system (although we know there are problems within). Its convincing room/bar owners to try something different. Some will many won't. So like any system, players use it and room owners do as well. If one thinks its a poor system, get together as a large group and try to change things. Either that or start your own.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending this system, I could care less now. I've played since early 60's. I know how to make a game then and now. Then you just played, sure once you got smart you started making better games. That wasn't by asking what your rated! LOL Now its that crap, what are you rated. Hell most of them don't even know how to make a game. What would they do without a sheet! ha ha ha I'm on the high side of this rating so I know what others are going through.

Rod

While I've never been bashful about giving my opinion on the accuracy of our rating system, I've always said the biggest problem was the application of the rating system - not the rating system itself. There is no solution - not one that's actually going to be put into practice - as far as I'm concerned. The only solution would be for every pool room in town to do away with "something and under" tournaments. I understand that is never going to happen, partly because a number of people don't see a problem, so I've accepted the fact that pool will always be as it is in this state - that is, if it doesn't get worse. I'll continue to play in the few good tournaments in Arizona that people happen to put on but, for the most part, I know I'll be going out of town whenever I want to play. I'm not saying that I blame room owners for wanting to make money. If I owned a pool room I'd want to make money with it. But I am saying that the current application of the ratings system has totally ruined serious pool in this state. The "something and under" tournament has made this state a joke as far as talent level is concerned. In a city as big as Phoenix, why don't we have ANY top players that started playing here? We have some pretty good players here, so this isn't to offend anyone, but really. Let's be honest here. I can honestly say that I'm not one of the top players if I go show up at the U.S. Open, for example. Let's be even more honest. Neither is ANYONE from Arizona. Scott Frost? He plays great. He isn't from Arizona. He already played great before he got here. It's because none of the players here HAVE to get better. They just show up and win their little 7-and-under tournament and spend the rest of their time trying to not get raised to an 8. Not to mention, with the exception of a few people here, action doesn't exist. Ask someone here to play. 19 times out of 20 you'll get the standard, "what are you rated?"

Eh, ho hum. Nothing we all haven't heard, or said, 1000 times before.

 

[Jack Madden]

I remember when I first started playing. I went to Monday night open events that had names like Roger Griffis, Steve Knight, Louie Roberts, Danny Dileberto in the field. I saw pit matches at the Golden 8-ball with Steve Mizerak, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe….The only time you see names like that in this town any more is when they are rolling through town doing a exhibition…

It was pool heaven. But I think that a lot of that action was in town 'cause the owner of the Golden 8-ball was a promoter and a player. Pete Glenn was an old time road player --- and a very good one. He promoted pool - high caliber pool - in Phoenix because it was good for HIS business.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com

 

[Snapshot9]

I did develop a system ...

I did develop a handicap system that I think would work,
and better than most. It was based around a 10 ball
average (not 10 ball as in 9 ball, but as in scoring like
bowling - 300 possible). You pay to get ranked the first
time, and their is a graduated payback scale, the higher
you score, the more payback, and if you score high enough
you make money at it (as an incentive to shoot your best
you can).

From the 10 ball score, you can convert to VNEA, BCA, or
APA 8 ball and 9 ball scores. You could also use it to derive
a 14.1 average. You can also use it to get a money or tournament
rating. A particular game, say 8 ball, will have a percentage
deduction off of the conversion because of the complexity
of 8 ball vs. 10 ball. For example, an average of 240 out of
300 in 10 ball would convert to a 60 BCA average for 5 man
8 ball. The complexity percentage, I believe for 8 ball, is
12 percent, so .12 x 60 = 7.2 subtracted from 60 = 53 BCA
8 ball average for 5 man team That is a 53 average out of
a possible 75.

10 ball is racked in a small triangle, broke, and you make balls,
any balls, if you run the table, it is a strike. If you miss, you get
ball in hand, and if you finish off the table, it is a spare. If you
don't then you get the number of balls you made. Scored just
like bowling. It was invented by our own Terry Young, owner of
Rumors Billiards and 2 time National Champion, right here in Wichita.
We have 10 ball leagues here. It is basically just doing the basics,
shooting balls in, that's why other games that are more complex,
like 8 or 9 ball have complexity percentages to bring the converted
averages to what they should be. I determined the complexity
percentages, based on 43 years of playing and knowledge of players,
averages, and the games.

If you already have a BCA, VNEA, or APA average for a person, this
can be used a check and balance to see whether the person indeed
shot to his true ability in the 10 ball qualifier for an average.

It works, it's fair, it has checks and balances, and cross verification,
and it has incentives for when you first set an average.

I don't want to just bitch about it, I want to help make it better for
everyone, and the sport in general.

 

[trainer]

wrong golden 8

Jack,
I believe you are talking about a different Golden 8-Ball..The one referred to was owned by David Lee and family at 27th ave. and Indian School..It was one of the best poolrooms Ever..
Terry O.

 

[Rick S.]

thiefs

I understand and agree for the most part. However its being blamed on a system. Hell show me a system pool players don't try to beat. Call it sand bagging what ever you like but that happens with any system.

Rod

The SAD part is watching some road players come into town and try to 'beat' the system, Or even the locals for that matter.

I have seen people literally jump in the air mid-stroke, stand up during the shot, you name it....while being rated. Doing anything possible to try to hide their game. Then it suddenly dissapears after they attain the rating they were seeking.

For what....a couple hundred bucks?? It's the same as stealing. Hell, it would be a lot quicker to just go lift the cash off the tournament table BEFORE you even shoot. Get it over with......

A thief is a THIEF.........


How the hell can a 10 speed player come in a tourny as a 5,6, OR 7 and live with themselves? Can you really be that hungry..?? To throw your name down the drain, and expose yourself as a thief in front of a poolroom full of people? And be smilin' the whole time.....


I just don't understand.......


Rick S.

 

[Jack Madden]

Jack,
I believe you are talking about a different Golden 8-Ball..The one referred to was owned by David Lee and family at 27th ave. and Indian School..It was one of the best poolrooms Ever..
Terry O.

Terry
SAME ROOM
David Lee and dad bought the Golden 8-Ball from PETE GLENN and his family. The Glenns promoted the room - made it what it was and sold it to David and he moved it down the road to 27th Ave.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com

 

[Bruce S. de Lis]

Now I think the System is Flawed

Got a Rating the other Day, as it was convienent. plasy with a Stick Shaft House Q. My Game was POO POO. would think my Rating will soon be INCREASED in NUMBER.... Now I know the System is Flawed

 

[Jimmy M.]

Got a Rating the other Day, as it was convienent. plasy with a Stick Shaft House Q. My Game was POO POO. would think my Rating will soon be INCREASED in NUMBER.... Now I know the System is Flawed

Just out of curiousity, which pool room did you go to? I would have recommended going to either Six Shooters in the day time, or to Alexander's in the evening. At least there are some good players in those places who, in my opinion, are more qualified to gauge someone's speed. One of the shortcomings of the rating system here, again, this is just my opinion, is that there are some people rating players who really know very little about pool - much less know enough to accurately gauge someone else's speed just by watching someone knock a few balls around.

Heh, I'm probably making all sorts of new friends here in Arizona with my posts in this thread, huh? Oh well, I'm not saying anything that isn't true.

 

[Rod]

Just out of curiousity, which pool room did you go to? I would have recommended going to either Six Shooters in the day time, or to Alexander's in the evening. At least there are some good players in those places who, in my opinion, are more qualified to gauge someone's speed. One of the shortcomings of the rating system here, again, this is just my opinion, is that there are some people rating players who really know very little about pool - much less know enough to accurately gauge someone else's speed just by watching someone knock a few balls around.

Heh, I'm probably making all sorts of new friends here in Arizona with my posts in this thread, huh? Oh well, I'm not saying anything that isn't true.

Definately nothing new here Jimmy as you well know. However being miss rated by a point isn't unusual. LOL Thing is, you still have to win.

Rod

 

[Bruce S. de Lis]

Definately nothing new here Jimmy as you well know. However being miss rated by a point isn't unusual. LOL Thing is, you still have to win.

Rod

Well Rating Players is like Judging Dogs at a Dog Show, it is not a Science, and I would think Raters like Judges will never agree on much.

Than you ad the Human Factor to the Equation, like How Good you are Playing at the time Your Are Rated, Table, Cue, How you feel that day, Pressure, etc.

If you are Rated TOO LOW, and all of a Sudden you Win, Win, & Win, i am sure your Rating will go Up.

But like Rod said, “Thing is, you still have to win.”

 

[Jimmy M.]

Definately nothing new here Jimmy as you well know. However being miss rated by a point isn't unusual. LOL Thing is, you still have to win.

Rod

Hi Rod. I probably don't even have to say it, but you're not one of the ones I was talking about.

 

[BRKNRUN]

If you are Rated TOO LOW, and all of a Sudden you Win, Win, & Win, i am sure your Rating will go Up.

Not always....

Actually, I am starting to think that people that are in "action" get raised faster than people that only play "something" and under tournaments.

I know guys that I have beaten plenty of times in tournaments to know that it was not a fluke, but they get raised becuase they have "gambled" on the side with crowd on hand and won.

I am not saying I should be raised, perhaps they layed down to get "action"...(I doubt it)...

All I am saying is that if your quiet about it and don't draw a crowd, you can cash for a long time without getting raised...

From my experience...The only time your really in risk of getting raised is when players start complaining about you being under rated......(That should give you an idea of how little they actually pay attention to what your rating is)

I have cashed in my share of weekly events, but I will probably keep my current rating forever, because nobody ever seems to complain about it....

The downside to all this here in AZ. I really do suck pretty bad compared to someone like Efren or Earl....I would likely be a better player overall today if better players were allowed to play....The sad reality is that you can win just about any 9 and under event in this town without a single break and run the whole night...