Governing body of pool table mechanics

It seems any statement or pic I make is fair game and I am beginnning to accept that. As in another recent post by a mech he said " why should everyone show their tricks after they have spent years etc making and creating them? I show and tell what I want. Have shown more things than anyone and posted pics. I don't question other peoples ideas or methods per say as if they work for them, thats cool. Although I would love to tear up alot of the things I see here and could back them up with logic and not BS or rep. I have always been known as a BS person and agree with people's assessment of me. Only dif with me is I backup my BS when I want to. Many people have received PM's from me with things to look for, or that I do that can help them. Have trusted certain people with info and hope they keep it to themselves. Of course there are ones who haven't. It took me a long time to build my rep on here and other guys max out in no time. I didn't see them posting pics etc of what they do, being challenged at every corner.

I have also been known as an instigator and thats true also. I am sorry if I come across that way but its because people don't really understand how to make things happen. If I press an issue for example your blood boils and you start to think about a hundred ways I am wrong. While thinking about all those things I say you also start to think and maybe, just maybe come up with some answers that I didn't think of. Now you take them and run with them. Best thing I have seen here so far is Ron's marking idea, and its obvious I made his blood boil more than once.

Man if I flamed the threads by other guys it really would be war. I am only trying to share what I feel is fun and maybe not always practical but it is dif. I share my thoughts and myself. I don't hide or pretend. Lately the decorum of the forum has been enhanced greatly by A-1. There are so many guys out there with skills who don't post here, it really is a shame. A-1 made a statement that the only guy he has to satisfy with a job is himself and I agree. Sadly I haven't done many jobs yet that I can say that.

The more ways you have to check,verify etc the better. I am giving thought to using water levels as I think there may be some positive attributes. Lasers are expensive, they are more accurate than any other leveling method.
Craig mentioned a guy who took 2 days using it and failed. That guy had heart and I'd take him on my jobs anytime. Sometimes its not about what and how things works is it.
 
QuickEdward said:
The idea is to REDUCE the number of mechanics. I'm a mechanic. In my metropolitan area (population 1.5 million) there might be be six or eight people that really know what they're doing. There are another 20 table butchers. To John Q. Customer we're all the same - some of the hacks even have much better websites than the legit guys.
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Quick,
I totally agree that reducing the opposition in # would be great. Remember I'm looking at this a bit differently as I'm not a table tech. I know most of the tavern/bar/pool establishment owners around here and most don't require a business license or proof of insurance for the table tech. or installer. I myself (if I were an tech.) would vigerously emphasize to the owners that their insurance comp. probably mandates that work done by a third party require they be insured at the very least and probably licensed also.

QuickEdward said:
When I fix a hack job I look at it like this... There were two jobs performed - the bad one the hack got paid for, and the good one I'm going to do. I only got one of those jobs. I would rather get both. (remember - most of the time we see the hack jobs not because we were called out to correct their work, but because we were called out to move or recover the table)

The idea that hacks are doing us a favor by "creating" work for us by butchering tables just doesn't hold water. For every repair job I get that is expressly to fix a problem created by these rogue installers there are six other move and recover jobs I lose because they're charging 150 bucks for a move or 175 for a recover.
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Let me set something straight here as I obviously didn't explain myself (my fault). I NEVER said they (the hacks) are dong you a favor. I was saying that when you run across one of their hacks (no matter what kind of call out it is) you basically have 2 choices. 1) Refuse to fix it as it isn't worth your time vs $ or 2) Do the job you know you can and point out the hacks to the owner vs your finished product thereby hopefully getting good advertisement by word of mouth. If you never knew about the job prior to the hacker getting it then you didn't lose it, but you can get future jobs.
I really don't know how ya'll could eliminate the hacker's doing the table moves and recovers for the home owners (those who aren't avid players) because I've notice a lot of them (about 1/2) don't care about licensing and certainly don't know what's involves in a truely proper install. I'm sure that issue would be best reserved for another thread.
Wish all of you the best of luck with the certification program. Just take ya'll time and plan and sell it well. There are also legal avenues which you have to your advantage with this type of program as well. Good luck to all!
 
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OTLB said:
Well now, this is a nice topic for the forum. Let the debate begin. I already know if someone saw me doing my tack strips they would tell me to get the ^&*( out. I do know how to qualify and eliminate hacks but sadly my posts many times just go unanswered. I am guilty of not always explaining myself because I like to hear what others think with more open ended questions.

First I would think there would be a std for every operation. How level is your table? and on and on.

Lets make a list and then think about it?
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Lets get this rollin again. I have read some very cool responses but why just stop at debate. What if this organization were attempted? How would you, the mechanic approach it. We have to please the player, home owner,the company who sold the table. Can we educate the average consumer? What if a forum to rate companies, table, service, and mechanics existed? Motor trend and consumer reports do this very thing. What would you say if the industry were listening? What affects you day to day as a mechanic. What would you change and how would you do it. Worried about cash flow we have a free forum right here. Some big ideas were born in a garage. The mechanic is the face and personality of the pool table industry. Many times you are the only personal contact the consumer or player has with a qualified individual. What if you could educate them before they purchased a table. We are in the information age where the average computer owner will do a little research to try a choose a table. What would you tell them? How would the pool table companies react if the consumer were informed. These companies make some junk tables because a demographic report says they can. Why does this industry lack oversight? I can answer this, NO OVERSIGHT means deniability! A customer complains about a table and you can point to the mechanic. These companies run the industry but we are the final touch on their product. What would you say if you had a voice????? Some of the best minds in the table industry post on this forum! How would you do it?
 
Yes this is the reason I have created the BMA and BTA---Billiard Mechanics and Billiard Technicians of America.

Basically a board of people to ramrod a common purpose with defined goals and objectives. Initially a certification program that qualifies a mech\tech from an installer who would really be only a mechanic. A tech would be someone versed in many disciplines beyond simple setups.
 
OTLB said:
Yes this is the reason I have created the BMA and BTA---Billiard Mechanics and Billiard Technicians of America.

Basically a board of people to ramrod a common purpose with defined goals and objectives. Initially a certification program that qualifies a mech\tech from an installer who would really be only a mechanic. A tech would be someone versed in many disciplines beyond simple setups.
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BMA, BTA, ABIA, etc -
All a good start but IMO the table makers need to be on board with the concept and require that their dealers use
"pick-a-name" certified table mechanics. Sell it to one table maker and in time I'd think others would follow.

Probably never eliminate Joe Hack that watched Bucky do a table once so now he can do it too for a fast $75.
 
doesn't Brunswick already have their "own" certified installers. Letting a company have an interest is just that.
 
OTLB said:
doesn't Brunswick already have their "own" certified installers. Letting a company have an interest is just that.
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So they say but I've read where their certified installers didn't do such a great job.
 
thats my point, once one guy who has a title does something bad it falls on all the others. Sometimes being an individual is better. Any involvement from a table company might be one sided. Many variables to address. Have discovered very few std's in this business. Careful planning is crucial to any endeaver in this regard. Pool table mech\techs generally have very little experience with such things.

An organization with a certification program would be a start but you can't just roll out a start, there has to be a finish as well. Many planning sessions etc, this is a very large undertaking to be done properly. Exactly what would be the benefits and who would enjoy them?
 
OTLB said:
... Exactly what would be the benefits and who would enjoy them?
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Just thinking that if all table mfg provided mechanic training at one school it could allow some standards across brands.
Like you said tho, a major undertaking.
 
Dartman said:
So they say but I've read where their certified installers didn't do such a great job.
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Some do some don't. I like to think i do! I attended over twenty years ago and some guys were in to it while others were not. I like to call it a introductory course. Al conte was certainly a VERY capable mechanic but you can only teach so much in a day or two course. Nothing beats time and hands on experience. Tough to teach that...

John
 
scruffy1 said:
Some do some don't. I like to think i do! I attended over twenty years ago and some guys were in to it while others were not. I like to call it a introductory course. Al conte was certainly a VERY capable mechanic but you can only teach so much in a day or two course.

Nothing beats time and hands on experience. Tough to teach that...
John
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Well said.
Unfortunate as it is tho, there are those that take pride in their work and others that
simply punch a clock for a paycheck.
 
OTLB said:
doesn't Brunswick already have their "own" certified installers. Letting a company have an interest is just that.
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I've been to alot of place that announce that they have "Certified Brunswick Technicians", and then find out that the certification at their locations requires watching a 30 minute video from Brunswick on how to do a table.
Here's your diploma.
A world of difference from Al Conte......

To get certified, shouldn't you have to bring your knowledge to the table to be put to the test, rather than go watch and get a diploma?
There should definitely be a standard that seperates the two.
Otherwise, all someone has to do is go through the Mechanics forum, read and watch pictures and videos from the threads, and hang out a shingle saying that they can do it all now, and since they "learned" from everyone here can announce themselves to the world as a Mechanic.
Personally, I don't think it works that way.
Kind of like having someone help you take apart tables, get a halfassed idea of a few of the things you do, and then running out to get ads and business cards made so that they can compete with you.
They were seen working with you to some degree, so they must be just as good right?:rolleyes:

Scruffy nailed it on the head in his post.
You can't beat experience- No matter how quickly someone may or may not learn.

It's going to take more than just a meeting of the minds to accomplish the change in the industry, it's going to require proof that it's something better than what exists, not that that is difficult, and someone high up in the corporate food chain to get on board to reach the same goals.
Diamond and Simonis are obvious in their support..... How about Brunswick, Olhausen, GoldenWest, Peter Vitali or any of the other companies that have been around for a while?
But, it's got to start somewhere, and nobody is going to be able to fix this but us.......
 
Dartman said:
Well said.
Unfortunate as it is tho, there are those that take pride in their work and others that
simply punch a clock for a paycheck.
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Rick,
You are right..we need to make an organization that will atleast monitor & regulate it's membership for quality control. If you are a mechanic and have passed the "certification" test set fourth by the governing body, but then receive numerous complaints of your quality of work. That membership should be reviewed and action taken.

A group of mechanics united under an organization would help with buying power, insurance rates, knowledge for all, etc... As a group you now can go to the big 3 mfgs and push for your organization to be heard. If you go first and don't have the numbers or a plan. There is no reason to listen and if they do mechanics will not run the organization the mfg's will.

There is a ball rolling here. We need to here ideas on how to go further. I urge everyone to post what your ideas for an organization would be. But keep in mind you must crawl before you walk, walk before you run.
 
I'm sure some would disagree but I'd like to see the BCA involved since many table makers are members.
For a mechanics organization to offer a training service under the BCA umbrella would offer credibility IMO.
 
Dartman said:
I'm sure some would disagree but I'd like to see the BCA involved since many table makers are members.
For a mechanics organization to offer a training service under the BCA umbrella would offer credibility IMO.
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please give me a call Rick
 
Brunswick offered a course not sure if they still do.I sent a few guys to it 15 years ago.It taught them nothing,at best guys from all over got a chance to compare notes.Gandy did it once I went down for that course,all I got from it was a hang over.
 
NoBull9 said:
Brunswick offered a course not sure if they still do.I sent a few guys to it 15 years ago.It taught them nothing,at best guys from all over got a chance to compare notes.Gandy did it once I went down for that course,all I got from it was a hang over.
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But if you were sending guys tomorrow what would you want them to learn? Would you want to see a united body of installers & mechanics?
 
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