tomatoshooter
Well-known member
There were two favorable outcomes possible, I make the shot, or I leave my opponent hooked. My opponent is going to have to figure out how to penalize me with his next shot.
Grady's Rules for nine ball
- Thread starter L.S. Dennis
- Start date
Slop 9 ball is still the default. I have no issues with anyone getting lucky rolls, when the game means nothing. When you are competing, randomness should be minimized as much as possible, not encouraged. That is why good players are good, they make shots and play position on purpose, while the rest are wondering why they can't make more than one ball at a time. Heck, one of the first things that a player tries to do when they learn the rules of 9 ball is just hit everything hard and hope to make the 9, even when the other shots are much easier. I have seen players with 3 balls on the table, with ball in hand, try for a combo on the 9 instead of making 3 stop shots. That is where knowing the luck is built into the game leads us. If they knew they had to shoot the other balls in, or had to call the 9, it's not likely people would be closing their eyes and smacking at the balls.
It's not about eliminating all luck, that is just about impossible, it's about minimizing it, just like we all try to minimize the bad things that can happen in a game by playing the right shots or the right patterns instead of just hitting at random speeds and angles. Control is the name of the game, if it's within our power to control the random things that happen, we should.
I look at someone getting a win by accident about as good as someone saying they "beat" a player when they were given a big advantage with a spot. Hey, I beat that guy, but no mention they were playing a 6-2 race and they "won" 2-5.
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tomatoshooter
Well-known member
I don't think hit and hope will take a player very far. It may get a player out of a couple of jams, but that's about it. It's probably close to the odds of them selling out. It will certainly not overcome a decisive overmatch.
Call safe 10 ball comes the closest. Terrible rules, they make the game boring af. Grady Mathews was a brilliant commentator and analyst, but these rules were not good. While they do give a better player an edge, most of the time, they are limiting to the creativity of the game and destroys any enjoyment for spectators. Luck was, is and always will be interesting and fun. Simple rules are also better than complicated rules. The most destructive rules are the ones in which the spectators have no idea why a players run has been stopped. It kills the enjoyment and confuses to no end.
You couldn't be more wrong. With ball in hand rules, safety play is extremely important. An awesome kicker and safety player can overcome many weaknesses in his game, and we have historic examples of this. Strong safety play is key to winning. Tables have gotten increasingly tighter, keeping safeties in the forefront.
8 ball on a small table, yes, especially at lower skill levels. 8 ball on a large table, not so much. On a 9 footer, 8 ball is a break and run game. If you can't string (racks), you can't win.
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Yes, you can play safeties. But calling safety and pocketing a ball I meant.
Oh, ok, I misunderstood you then. Nevermind.
I think Grady was onto something. I also think two way call shots are more sophisticated than two way slop shops.
That said, we are where we are. 9 Ball is in good hands with Matchroom.
I know there's no way to convince anyone to fully embrace my opinion. Why should anyone, I don't play this much at all. Maybe get on a table by myself a couple times a year.
I'm not advocating for slamming balls around and hope for the best, but there's always the questions. What's a lucky shot? How is that determined? Take the game for instance where Efren makes the famous Z shot. There were 2 or three shots prior that could be considered lucky, maybe should, or I think we can agree there was at least some luck involved. How much luck would constitute a foul? Do we consider known player's skill level? Was there no luck with the "Z" shot? I'll give you that he was laying pretty good for the shot. Nearly shooting from the corner and having to hit the middle of the short but hit it that perfect? I don't know if he could absolutely for sure, set it back up and do it again.
Bottom line is I'm just hoping the Official Rules don't morph into a game that eliminates creativity, taking chances, and yes just guessing and banging the ball.
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Wow, these rules are horrible. Would have made the game as boring to watch as call everything like a bar banger 10 ball.
Grady made up rules to shorten the time it took to play matches. His "Grady Rules" for One Pocket created many problems but his efforts were admirable. His focus in the rules were really for tournaments and actually for local tournaments or weekly tournaments. They were not workable for major events as the players were too good and rarely missed so there was no point in speeding up the games. Lately in One Pocket events, Grady's rules have been implemented to a lessor degree and the results are mixed. Yes the time spent in matches is lessened but the controversy about missing spotting balls behind the head string and when an inning is over so you can spot the balls has created problems. The need for referees has increased and arguments have erupted during matches etc. So, IMO it's better to play less games and let the specific game work itself out by the competitors.
is the foul equals foul (if you own a ball and opponent owns a ball it equals out) also a grady rule? i don't mind that one. the main grady rule i don't care for, disrupts the natural flow of the game and diminishes the uptable game too much
Yes, Efren's Z shot involved some luck, but of course it involved lots of skill. Call shot doesn't completely eliminate the luck involved in executing a very low percentage shot where skill is required not only to maximize your chances to make it, but also to envision the shot in the first place.
Grady's rules would not have prevented the Z shot from happening because Efren would have called the corner pocket anyway.
Also, Grady's rules would still force Efren to shoot the Z shot even if Efren called a safety on the 5 ball. Undoubtedly Strickland would have passed the shot back to Efren since the 8 ball was inadvertently pocketed.
So Grady's rules would still have produced the same amazing, historical final rack. Nothing would have changed.
EDIT: 8 ball was inadvertently pocketed, not 5 ball.
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Kind of proves my point.
If Efren missed a safety call? So Efren calls safe but pockets the ball... Pocketed ball must be spotted.
We're assuming there's no shot so Earl hands the table back.
In this case Earl is LUCKY the shot went the way it did.
The main point in my stance is
The Shooter Isn't the Only One That Can Get Lucky.
You don't have to be the one swinging the cue to get lucky.
If I were playing Efren, I'd feel I was lucky if I got a chance to shoot.
What's wrong with that kind of luck?
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Grady rule: "Nothing spots up except the 9 ball." So with that specific layout and Grady's rules, if Efren had called safe and pocketed the 5-ball, Earl would have accepted the next shot (easy 6-ball) and won the game.
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It removes what I call the two way or double shot. This is when you go for a difficult shot and hook the cue ball so if you miss the opponent does not have a shot.
Oops. I meant the 8 ball was inadvertently pocketed (prior to the Z shot when Efren attempted his initial safe on the 5 ball).
Yes, correct. Earl was lucky that the 8 was pocketed.
I agree.