How do you do it?
GRIP QUESTION
- Thread starter bbb
- Start date
About 90% of my shots are shot with my arm. My hand just goes along for the ride. I manipulate the cue with my hand when I feel it's needed for the other 10%. A lot of players do all sorts of hand gripping and un-gripping, pronating --- whatever else --- during every stroke. It's really unnecessary.
i think simpler is better too fran
but i do experiment just in case
Absolutely. I'm 100% on board with experimenting. I would never have figured out when to bring hand manipulation into my stroke for those 10% of shots without experimenting. Of course, I'm throwing those percentages out there arbitrarily. I don't really know what they are --- I suspect less than 10%. But if just one shot gets you out of trouble and wins you a game. It's worth the hours of experimentation to learn it.
Fran. When you say 90% with your arm, do you mean with your forearm only? Of course except for the break.
Good question. Yes, basically on those shots where I keep a fixed elbow. Within that 90% I do shoot an occasional elbow drop shot (excluding the break shot) when I feel it's necessary to assure a level cue at impact. With those shots, the entire arm and shoulder are engaged, but my grip hand is still basically passive. If there's any grip hand manipulation on those shots, it's usually after impact where I'm increasing the grab tension to hang on to the cue.
Break shots are a different story. I lunge forward, drop my elbow and snap my wrist, and grab at impact when I'm hard-breaking.
Last edited:
Do you think the thumb and the next two fingers in a "cradle" orientation is a good way to strike the cue ball? If you think it is not the best way, can you explain why?
I solved the "changing grip" problem for myself by developing a "hinge" grip, with only the thumb and forefinger applying grip pressure, and only from the sides - the cue pivots there during strokes as if on a hinge pin between thumb and forefinger. With pressure applied only from the sides and the rear three fingers just along for the ride, there's no clenching of the hand for more pressure at impact or on harder shots, so no closing of the small gap above the cue and no effect on the stroke's straightness.
Like any grip/stroke, it's not automatically perfect - takes some practice and experimentation to find the right hand orientation, wrist flexibility, etc. - but it's a good model for me.
For hard breaks I use the same thumb/forefinger grip, but fully clenched firmly around the cue from start to finish.
pj
chgo
Like any grip/stroke, it's not automatically perfect - takes some practice and experimentation to find the right hand orientation, wrist flexibility, etc. - but it's a good model for me.
For hard breaks I use the same thumb/forefinger grip, but fully clenched firmly around the cue from start to finish.
pj
chgo
Last edited:
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Interesting approach. Thanks for sharing.
pagaspoling
Member
In sport biomechanics theres a concept called kinematic sequencing often it occurs in a proximal (close to body) to distal (far from body) way. Think about a javelin thrower where the hand its the last segment to flick away the already fast moving javelin. I think cue speed is very important in pool and all great players are able to produce a lot of it while still having control over the hit. Since the hand is the most distal part of arm the wrist and or fingers is the last joints that release their speed in to the ball. This is done by letting the hand lag the forearm in transition (increasing ulnar deviation and opening the hand) then as you approach impact you will release this angle by going into radial deviation and closing the hand (Wobbly posted a picture explaining the motions earlier in the thread). As Bob said earlier this will also lift the butt but this release is usually coordinated with flexing of the shoulder (dropping the elbow) that drops the butt.
If we want to be able to do this a loose wrist is important as is a hold of the cue that let the pressure shift from different parts of the fingers during the stroke. A nice way of seeing this is with a mirror on the floor. This perspective is more useful than the more common side view of the grip. The diagram is from javelin so hips and trunk is not relevant for pool.
If we want to be able to do this a loose wrist is important as is a hold of the cue that let the pressure shift from different parts of the fingers during the stroke. A nice way of seeing this is with a mirror on the floor. This perspective is more useful than the more common side view of the grip. The diagram is from javelin so hips and trunk is not relevant for pool.
I've proposed that it's easier to guide an object along a straight-line path with side pressure, as opposed to clenching from above or cupping from below.
My grip provides more pressure on the front two fingers--my hand is forward with a small amount of ulnar deviation at address--rather than me consciously applying pressure via certain fingers--but the effect is a good side-cradling as you suggest.
A very good point--reminds me of Ben Hogan's golf fundamentals books to wind and unwind the body in golf. In pool, though, there are different strokes and the cue can be pushed, pulled, thrown through the shot, etc.
pagaspoling
Member
Maybe off topic, but how do you pull a cue through the shot?
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Many think of a stroke as a throw....all throws are anatomical pulls.
it can look confusing bc we grip at the back of the cue but if u picture the cue extending back like a long rope....are u pushing the rope or pulling it?
So to me, it's asif you are pulling the part of the cue you hold on to...it just happens to stick out in front.
There's actually already a thread on this called "push or pull". Some good stuff in there.
Take your own example of lag. only pulls can have lag. no possibility of lag with a push.
Last edited:
pagaspoling
Member
I personally tend to think about the stroke as a stroke.
The cue has its center of mass between my two hands and my back hand is the point where i apply force. So if the back hand is leading the center of mass of the cue that is a pull (backstroke) and if the center of mass is leading the hand that is a push.
In regards to grip I think this maybe is most important when you think about hand path. If you can push the center of gravity of the cue so it is in line with the tip for as long as possible during the stroke all of your applied force would be cue speed instead of an pendulum stroke where you constantly apply torque to the center of mass by moving it vertically in order to change its path.
Why wouldn't it be possible to have lag in a push? And what is an anatomical pull?
The cue has its center of mass between my two hands and my back hand is the point where i apply force. So if the back hand is leading the center of mass of the cue that is a pull (backstroke) and if the center of mass is leading the hand that is a push.
In regards to grip I think this maybe is most important when you think about hand path. If you can push the center of gravity of the cue so it is in line with the tip for as long as possible during the stroke all of your applied force would be cue speed instead of an pendulum stroke where you constantly apply torque to the center of mass by moving it vertically in order to change its path.
Why wouldn't it be possible to have lag in a push? And what is an anatomical pull?
I think it's the worst way. Just because some pros play that way, and some teachers recommend that way, it doesn't mean it's the best way. I have seen too many players come to me with twisting problems and the culprits were always the first two fingers. If your hand isn't naturally rolling on the cue as your arm moves forward, then you are fighting your anatomy. That grip works against the player's anatomy. You can see it just by watching those players. It's less efficient and there are more possibilities for the stroke to go off line.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Qhat I mean by aanatomical pull is the action the body is performing is a pull. if there was a gym exercise that had u reach behind you and move weight forward with ur chest and upper arm, every trainer would have it as part of a pull day not a push day. The force production happens in front and the gap between that force producer and what u are moving shortens....it pulls it closer.
Just looking at the body, only pulls can have lagging boddy segments. With pushesthe weight moves away from the force production. generally we are in braced positions for pushes. hence no possivility of lag.
i get what u are saying tho with the center of mass stuff and bob, a physics guy himself also looks at it as a push...or at keast he did at the start of the push pull thread. we are using the word differently I guess. To me, the body is clearly performing a pulling action so if a pull is being performed by the body, it's a pull.
I think it's as simple as...
...which means the cue stick (except the small part behind the hand) and the CB are both "pushed".
pj
chgo
Last edited:
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
ye I get that. Perfectly valid take. To me it is as simple as, if the body is performing a pulling action, it's a pull.
Can you be both pulling and pushing one object with the same motion at the same time? Also, you say the pulling part is the small part behind the hand. What about the part that's in the hand? And where is the majority of the weight of the cue?