grip?

[klockdoc]

But you only have to think about it long enough to make the change and get comfortable with it (if that's what you're doing). It isn't a permanent condition.

You are correct. Once I start making balls and "go into the sub-conscious" mode, I probably slip back to the full grip and don't even know it.

It can make a big difference - it did for me. A lot of the benefit for me was that taking a finger or two off the cue (really just relaxing them) prevented me from tightening my grip as I finished my stroke, which was steering my tip slightly offline. A little bit of tip inaccuracy makes a big difference.

I made the change (to a looser grip) by exaggerating the difference at first: gripping with only my thumb and forefinger in a "pincer" grip that allowed the stick to pivot freely as my stroke went back and forth (picture a pin inserted sideways through the butt as the pivot). This made an immediate positive difference in the "finish" of my stroke, which is where most grip problems show up.

pj
chgo

Well, leaving the index finger off is a (or seems like) BIG exaggeration for me. Is this something that you think I could benefit from? Thereby continue on this approach and learn how to get comfortable with it?

 

[av84fun]

First off, without any animosity, I would like to know the answer to this question. Not specifically to find out who is wrong, but, to see if I should continue to experiment with my assumptions on gripping. I would like to hear the reasoning behind this theory so as to make my own decisions.




This kind of what am experimenting with. Certain shots dictate different positions/grips on the cue. Thanks for the confirmation on my thought process.

There are others far more capable of providing the scientific reasons for forearm perpendicularity but this is my understanding.

1. The pool stroke is actually somewhat like a pendulum in that the but doesn't move exactely back and forth but also somewhat up and down..

If your forearm is perpendicular at the moment of CB contact, then it will be at the bottom of the pendulum motion and it will therefore, be more likely that you will strike the cb at the intended spot.

2. The forward stroke involves contraction of muscles and excessive contraction such as would occur as the angle between your forearm and upper narrows will inhibit the freedom of the stroke.

3. You want to strike the CB while the cue is accelerating and the more the angle between forearm and upper arm contracts, the slower the cue speed will become.

As Bob Jewett pointed out, many players back in the day and some to this very day hold their cues such that the forearm is slightly forward of the perpendicular. But he is also correct that if you look at top players today, you will see that a HUGE majority of them have adopted the perpendicular to the cue, method.

Finally, perpendicular to the cue vs. to the floor (vertical) is not an insignificant issue as some would have you believe.

There are NUMEROUS ordinary shots where the cue angle must be significantly elevated. Draw shots with the CB near a rail and shots jacked up over an intervening OB are just two examples. On such shots, if you took the advice of holding the forearm vertical, then it would be angled meaningfully forward (less than 90 degrees).

So, IF you are going to hold the arm properly, according to modern theaching, when the cue is nearly level, it is simple logic that you should hold it properly when the cue is not level. Anything short of that would be intentionally inferior mechanics....according to modern teaching.

Regarding placing the grip hand at different places on the butt, that is not necessarily in opposition to the "perpendicular rule."

Given my bridge length, stance etc. the perpendicular position with a nearly level stroke has my grip hand about one inch forward of the end of the wrap. But on a draw shot with the CB near a rail, my grip hand must be an inch or two forward in order to achieve the perpendicular forearm. And on shots where I need to stretch out...say with the CB at center table for a corner pocket shot, my grip must be at the very end of the butt.

And by the way, I sensed no animosity whatever in your inquiry. Simple debate/discussion and the presentation of opposing views is not at all objectionalbe to me. Others seem to feel differently about their views being contradicted.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

What's interesting about this thread, no one has really gone into the "grip" itself, just the position of the grip on the wrap or not and the location of it along the butt.
Is your actual GRIP correct?..that would be a major concern of mine.

Bob commented on that when responding to Klockdoc's question about holding the index finger off the butt.


As he noted, there are top players who use quite different grips. However, I think it is safe to say that light grip pressure is a universally accepted technique.

But if there is anything resembling a "standard" grip, it would be to cradle the butt in the "pocket" formed by the thumb, index, middle and ring finger when the cue is in the forward position...and to permit the ring finger to dislodge from the butt as the back stroke is executed...and then ending up with a full, five finger grip on the follow through.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Island Drive]

I find too vague allot of responses. It's sooooooo important to understand what is going on literally 'out of sight'. Grip is a side to side 'pinch' of the cue but with you fingers, how many you choose to pinch the 'butt' is up to the feel monster....not the Monster Dot Com one....

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Alot of cues are balanced differently. A cue's balance and where you grip it can definately have an effect on your stroke. The majority of my shots I will grip the cue in the same place. However I will choke up on the cue when the CB and OB are close together, or when the shot requires a light and delicate hit, or when I am jacked-up, etc. When I play with a different cue, I try to find a spot where the cue feels well-balanced with my stroke, and try to remember that spot. On my own playing cue, I took a marker and made a small dot on the wrap so I remember the spot.

 

[av84fun]

I find too vague allot of responses. It's sooooooo important to understand what is going on literally 'out of sight'. Grip is a side to side 'pinch' of the cue but with you fingers, how many you choose to pinch the 'butt' is up to the feel monster....not the Monster Dot Com one....

I don't know who the "monster Dot Com" is but right...as both Bob and I pointed out, there are numerous different grips used by top players.

But you asked for comment on the grip itself and not merely the position of the grip on the butt which is an excellent question and one were personal feel should control...as long as the player is experiencing very substantial success.

Grip is a side to side 'pinch' of the cue but with you fingers,

That may well describe your grip technique and if it works for you that is great. But I would have to disagree with you on that to the extent that few, if any top players I have seen play personally (which is most of them) use such a grip.

Rather than a "side to side pinch" most players "wrap" which ever fingers they prefer to use around 3 sides of the cue...the outside, bottom and inside surfaces.

In effect, they form a U shaped "cradle" supporting those 3 surfaces of the cue with the web between the thumb and index finger supplying pressure on the top surface of the cue.

The "side to side pinch" you wrote seems to describe the way you might pick up a pencil lying on a table.

Please forgive me if I misunderstood what you were trying to convey. You are very correct that it is often difficult to describe such things with the written word.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
... you only have to think about it long enough to make the change and get comfortable with it (if that's what you're doing). It isn't a permanent condition.

klockdoc:
You are correct. Once I start making balls and "go into the sub-conscious" mode, I probably slip back to the full grip and don't even know it.

Even if you make a permanent change to another grip, the thinking part is only temporary. It comes more and more naturally over time, with less and less conscious effort.

... leaving the index finger off is a (or seems like) BIG exaggeration for me. Is this something that you think I could benefit from? Thereby continue on this approach and learn how to get comfortable with it?

I don't leave my index finger (forefinger) off - along with the thumb it's the most important part of my grip. But I relax all three other fingers to get the free pivoting grip I described. I can't say what specific grip would be best for you, but my experience agrees with the common wisdom that a looser grip is better.

Something that isn't discussed as much is why a looser grip is better. It's mostly just taken on faith that it is. My reason is that it allows me to finish my stroke without a noticable change in the last part of it and doesn't induce tightening of the forearm or wrist muscles, allowing my forearm to swing loosely and freely throughout. That's the result I'd be looking for if I was you.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Rather than a "side to side pinch" most players "wrap" which ever fingers they prefer to use around 3 sides of the cue...the outside, bottom and inside surfaces.

In effect, they form a U shaped "cradle" supporting those 3 surfaces of the cue with the web between the thumb and index finger supplying pressure on the top surface of the cue.

Most players' grips look like this, but I don't think it's possible to tell just by the way the grip looks what pressure is being applied and in what directions. My grip looks like a normal "wrapped around" grip (just because that's a comfortable position), but the pressure applied is more like a two-point "pinch".

pj
chgo

 

[av84fun]

Most players' grips look like this, but I don't think it's possible to tell just by the way the grip looks what pressure is being applied and in what directions. My grip looks like a normal "wrapped around" grip (just because that's a comfortable position), but the pressure applied is more like a two-point "pinch".

pj
chgo

Which two points?

 

[JoeyA]

No prob dude...I'm new to this forum and I'm certainly not going to stir the pot.

What are you trying to do here, trob? Get along?

Welcome to the Main Forum.
JoeyA

 

[klockdoc]

As Bob Jewett pointed out, many players back in the day and some to this very day hold their cues such that the forearm is slightly forward of the perpendicular. But he is also correct that if you look at top players today, you will see that a HUGE majority of them have adopted the perpendicular to the cue, method.

Regards,
Jim

Hey, I am one of those players "back in the day".. Really, those players, as unorthodox as some were in their style, could still play the game very well. True, players back then did not have the knowledge or the instructors that players have today to insure they are starting correctly and I'm sure there are still players today that shoot well and are incorrect in their fundamentals.

The question that concerns me is why all of a sudden do I have to correct my grip to shoot straighter/better?. What am I doing now that I didn't "do back in the day"?

Something that isn't discussed as much is why a looser grip is better. It's mostly just taken on faith that it is. My reason is that it allows me to finish my stroke without a noticable change in the last part of it and doesn't induce tightening of the forearm or wrist muscles, allowing my forearm to swing loosely and freely throughout. That's the result I'd be looking for if I was you.

pj
chgo

I think the looser grip not only eliminates the tendency to "steer" the shot, but, lets the cue do the action requested on the cue ball. Maybe some of the action on the cue is deadened by your grip if too tight? I know my draw shots are tremendously improved by using a looser grip. I also find myself over-shooting position on many standard position plays by using a looser grip.(ie: more action on the cue ball) It's almost like I have to start all over in my position training..

I also used a cradle grip on my shots. I must have never been totally loose with my grip because I am not accustomed to the action on the cue when I purposely make sure it is loose. Kind of frustrating to not know the answer of what is all of a sudden causing this inaccuracy.

Whenever someone asks me about the grip, I mention that it should be loose also. I tell them to think of it like a chinese handcuff. It is loose when you grip the butt, but, when you go forward, it tightens up with the forward movement.

 

[halhoule]

Why Wack It An Any Situation ????

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
My grip looks like a normal "wrapped around" grip (just because that's a comfortable position), but the pressure applied is more like a two-point "pinch".

av84fun:
Which two points?

For those who might be genuinely interested:

Press the butt of your cue up into the "web" between your thumb and forefinger (but just touching, not really "pressed") and then hold it by keeping the thumb and forefinger straight but squeezing them together, applying light pressure at two points on opposite sides of the butt.

On my hand it's a point on my forefinger between the large knuckle and the middle knuckle and a point on the side of my thumb right at the last knuckle. On the butt it's two points on opposite sides where a hinge pin drilled through the butt would emerge.

My thumb and forefinger aren't actually held straight; they wrap under the butt to provide additional support - but the main "grip" (and, more importantly, the pivoting action of the butt/hand connection) is at these two points. The rest of my fingers are wrapped around the butt in a relaxed fashion that permits them to partially "unwrap" out of the way at the back and front ends of my stroke. I could equally effectively hold all except my thumb and forefinger away from the butt, but that's not as comfortable for me.

pj
chgo

 

[klockdoc]

For those who might be genuinely interested:

Press the butt of your cue up into the "web" between your thumb and forefinger (but just touching, not really "pressed") and then hold it by keeping the thumb and forefinger straight but squeezing them together, applying light pressure at two points on opposite sides of the butt.

On my hand it's a point on my forefinger between the large knuckle and the middle knuckle and a point on the side of my thumb right at the last knuckle. On the butt it's two points on opposite sides where a hinge pin drilled through the butt would emerge.

My thumb and forefinger aren't actually held straight; they wrap under the butt to provide additional support - but the main "grip" (and, more importantly, the pivoting action of the butt/hand connection) is at these two points. The rest of my fingers are wrapped around the butt in a relaxed fashion that permits them to partially "unwrap" out of the way at the back and front ends of my stroke. I could equally effectively hold all except my thumb and forefinger away from the butt, but that's not as comfortable for me.

pj
chgo

What made you change, or, did you change your original grip to go to this style?

Were you having problems associated with the original method of gripping?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

klockdoc:
... Maybe some of the action on the cue is deadened by your grip if too tight?

I don't think this could be a direct effect - the cue ball can't tell if you have a tighter or looser grip; it can only tell how hard it's hit, at what point and from which angle. If your CB action changes when you tighten your grip, tightening must change something about one or more of these three factors. My first guess would be "at what point" - in other words, tip/CB accuracy is suffering.

I know my draw shots are tremendously improved by using a looser grip. I also find myself over-shooting position on many standard position plays by using a looser grip.(ie: more action on the cue ball)

Again, this sounds like tip/ball accuracy to me. When I'm super-aware of where I'm hitting the CB it feels like I need half the power to get the action I want.

I also used a cradle grip on my shots.

The devil's in the details. Where in your cradle grip is pressure being applied to the cue? Is it possible to loosen the grip without "unwrapping" it while continuing to grip at fewer points?

Kind of frustrating to not know the answer of what is all of a sudden causing this inaccuracy.

I missed this part in your posts. Are you having some specific trouble?

Whenever someone asks me about the grip, I mention that it should be loose also. I tell them to think of it like a chinese handcuff. It is loose when you grip the butt, but, when you go forward, it tightens up with the forward movement.

I think this is inevitable, especially with more forceful shots, which makes it doubly important to minimize the "pressure points" and therefore the effect on your stroke.

pj
chgo

 

[Island Drive]

Nick Varner in a instructional video years ago, I think with J. Briesath made a comment that has always made sense. He was asked "how to hold the cue butt" his comment, and it wasn't planned came out well, he said it's kinda like grabbing a coke can without deforming/bending it, kinda like the threes bears, "just right".

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
[snip description of my grip]

klockdoc:
What made you change, or, did you change your original grip to go to this style?

Were you having problems associated with the original method of gripping?

My grip has evolved over time - there was never an abrupt overall change. But it has evolved consistently in the direction of less pressure at fewer points, which has helped with keeping my stroke straighter throughout (especially at the "finish") and with loosening the muscles in both my hand and forearm that caused it to veer in the first place.

Of course, everything about my stroke has been evolving over time, so it's impossible to say how much or exactly what part of my improvement is related to grip improvement. But I know it's an essential part of the whole.

pj
chgo

 

[klockdoc]

My grip has evolved over time - there was never an abrupt overall change. But it has evolved consistently in the direction of less pressure at fewer points, which has helped with keeping my stroke straighter throughout (especially at the "finish") and with loosening the muscles in both my hand and forearm that caused it to veer in the first place.

Of course, everything about my stroke has been evolving over time, so it's impossible to say how much or exactly what part of my improvement is related to grip improvement. But I know it's an essential part of the whole.

pj
chgo

Thanks. Yes, there is something amiss in my stroke. Changing the grip seems to help the outcome. However, you utilize the "pinch" method, my change has just been the cradle. Loose, but not allowing the cue to move side-to-side.

Going forward on the shot, the cue just wedges itself into a stopping action. The index finger still has me bewildered. Something there I haven't figured out there.

Again, thanks for the input.

 

[JoeyA]

2 point Grip

For those who might be genuinely interested:

Press the butt of your cue up into the "web" between your thumb and forefinger (but just touching, not really "pressed") and then hold it by keeping the thumb and forefinger straight but squeezing them together, applying light pressure at two points on opposite sides of the butt.

On my hand it's a point on my forefinger between the large knuckle and the middle knuckle and a point on the side of my thumb right at the last knuckle. On the butt it's two points on opposite sides where a hinge pin drilled through the butt would emerge.

My thumb and forefinger aren't actually held straight; they wrap under the butt to provide additional support - but the main "grip" (and, more importantly, the pivoting action of the butt/hand connection) is at these two points. The rest of my fingers are wrapped around the butt in a relaxed fashion that permits them to partially "unwrap" out of the way at the back and front ends of my stroke. I could equally effectively hold all except my thumb and forefinger away from the butt, but that's not as comfortable for me.

pj
chgo

This is another reason why Patrick gets a big thumbs-up from me. While he and I don't always see eye to eye, Patrick provides some of the most detailed posts and insightful posts about pool.

Barry Emerson ? held his cue similarly but without the touching of the thumb and forefingers; basically all appendages aimed at the floor with the two pressure points on the side of the butt and he played pretty good. Does he still play?
JoeyA

 

[Patrick Johnson]

JoeyA:
[Patrick] and I don't always see eye to eye

Maybe if you got up on my soapbox with me...

pj
chgo