Handicap ranking Discussion

The system described by Mike Page and the NPL are open, simple systems. A player knows after he finishes each match exactly how his rating will change. The NPL statistics show that the system produces fair matches -- they are available on-line.

Systems like the APA system which are secret and depend on detailed score sheets are easy to manipulate. That's probably one of the attractions -- some people are only happy when they feel they can gain an unfair advantage.

I urge you to look at Mike Page's system.

I did look at Mike Page's system when that thread was posted. It looks like it will work for in-house tournaments (which I believe is all it's used for, right?). I don't think it would extend well to a team environment, nor do I think it will work in a USPPA-type system of tournaments, because a W/L record is completely dependent on the strength of the fields and some houses will have stronger fields, on average, than others.

If I put my imaginary team into the NPL and cheated as described, what would the NPL statistics show? Fair matches, right? I mean, if my team engineers .500 records for all but one player, how would NPL know? If we go to a big tournament and win it, what evidence would NPL have that we cheated? Somebody has to win the tournament, right?

In the early years, the APA system was simple and was actually published in the team manual. That didn't turn out so good.

I still contend that in a team environment and any handicap system, a big carrot will attract cheaters and you have to be able to catch them and deal with them. And as is the case in most facets of life, the earlier you detect and fix a problem, the better.
 
Ok Maniac, so the entire evening is worth one point in the standings?

If that's the case, my team will win by one ball two out of every three weeks. Once out of every three weeks we will lose by 50 or more. Our team average goes down, the teams we lose to go up, and we have a winning percentage of 67%. If there was a big enough prize that's probably how it would work.

Unless your team consists of Johnny Archer, Dennis Hatch, SVB, and yourself, you may NOT win by one ball two out of every three weeks. Do you not think that the OTHER team you play MAY have some say-so as to if you win that night or not??? Are you now being so cocky as to say that you can CONTROL what nights you will and will not win on?

Like I've said before, ANY handicapped format CAN be manipulated to SOME extent. It's amazing what people can do when they set their minds to it. All I said here is that there doesn't SEEM to be anything hokey going on in the league I shoot in (BCA that is, there is a LOT of hokey sh*t going on in BOTH APA leagues I play in).

Maniac (tired of explaining why handicap systems suck for the most part)
 
Unless your team consists of Johnny Archer, Dennis Hatch, SVB, and yourself, you may NOT win by one ball two out of every three weeks. Do you not think that the OTHER team you play MAY have some say-so as to if you win that night or not??? Are you now being so cocky as to say that you can CONTROL what nights you will and will not win on?

Like I've said before, ANY handicapped format CAN be manipulated to SOME extent. It's amazing what people can do when they set their minds to it. All I said here is that there doesn't SEEM to be anything hokey going on in the league I shoot in (BCA that is, there is a LOT of hokey sh*t going on in BOTH APA leagues I play in).

Maniac (tired of explaining why handicap systems suck for the most part)
No, I'm saying we had three weeks at the beginning to set up a nice spot for ourselves, and unless YOUR team consists of Johnny Archer, Dennis Hatch, SVB, and yourself you're gonna have a tough time making up that weight.

Calm down a bit, we pretty much agree on everything. Any handicap system can work if everyone involved is honest. It's the dishonest people who suck, not the system. There's plenty to debate about the accuracy of one method versus another, which might work better locally versus nationally, etc., but one thing is for sure - when someone decides to cheat they will find a way. Those in charge have to be ready for that to happen.
 
No, I'm saying we had three weeks at the beginning to set up a nice spot for ourselves, and unless YOUR team consists of Johnny Archer, Dennis Hatch, SVB, and yourself you're gonna have a tough time making up that weight.

Calm down a bit, we pretty much agree on everything. Any handicap system can work if everyone involved is honest. It's the dishonest people who suck, not the system. There's plenty to debate about the accuracy of one method versus another, which might work better locally versus nationally, etc., but one thing is for sure - when someone decides to cheat they will find a way. Those in charge have to be ready for that to happen.

APA Operator, I'm okay, not riled up or nothin'. Funny how typed words can make one look in a "state" that one is not really in. Your statement about any system working if it involves honest people is spot-on (not your exact words, but that was the spirit of your statement). Here's the weird thing about my BCA league I've been referring to: The team with the BEST four players are not even in first nor second place. They are in third or fourth place, I believe (I'm not sure which as I don't even keep up with the standings. I only play for the pure enjoyment of it. Seriously). I can say this, if I ever start seeing cheating on anything more than a rare occurrence (I haven't even seen this so far), I will quit leagues altogether and play in mid-week tourneys instead.

Maniac
 
I did look at Mike Page's system when that thread was posted. It looks like it will work for in-house tournaments (which I believe is all it's used for, right?). ...
No, the system was used in about 10 rooms in Northern California in which there were quite a few traveling players.. While there are problems with matching ratings levels among groups of rooms, there are fairly simple ways of doing that. There are also simple ways to extend it to team play, as Mike has in his room.

Mostly all these points are moot, since the APA is very unlikely to change in the near future.
 
No, the system was used in about 10 rooms in Northern California in which there were quite a few traveling players.. While there are problems with matching ratings levels among groups of rooms, there are fairly simple ways of doing that. There are also simple ways to extend it to team play, as Mike has in his room.

Mostly all these points are moot, since the APA is very unlikely to change in the near future.

When you say simple, do you consider the sandbagging players/teams? How do these systems handle cheaters?

I ask because APA once had a very simple, public handicap system. It is unpublished and quite complicated today, all due to the cheaters. Perhaps that's something Mike has to look forward to?
 
When you say simple, do you consider the sandbagging players/teams? How do these systems handle cheaters?

I ask because APA once had a very simple, public handicap system. It is unpublished and quite complicated today, all due to the cheaters. Perhaps that's something Mike has to look forward to?
The problem with systems that use something beyond win-loss to set ratings is that the details of complicated score sheets are easy to manipulate. Just miss a lot, or mark down a few or a dozen extra misses per game. This is especially easy if you are somewhat underrated to start with and you can miss until your over-matched opponent starts to have a chance to get out.

Even systems that count only win-loss can be sandbagged, but it's much harder. You have to actually lose matches. Most people aren't that patient. Some are, though, and you have to watch for them. This tactic is generally only useful to "prepare" for a big playoff or championship, and if your bad play during the season keeps you out of the big event, you get no benefit from your manipulation. A simple way to counter this tactic is to give more weight to performance in big events.
 
The problem with systems that use something beyond win-loss to set ratings is that the details of complicated score sheets are easy to manipulate. Just miss a lot, or mark down a few or a dozen extra misses per game. This is especially easy if you are somewhat underrated to start with and you can miss until your over-matched opponent starts to have a chance to get out.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. If you want to manipulate the data on the score sheets, you will have to get your opponent to cooperate, since they have a score sheet too.

Even systems that count only win-loss can be sandbagged, but it's much harder. You have to actually lose matches. Most people aren't that patient. Some are, though, and you have to watch for them.
Wait a minute, I thought it was just a simple, open formula. Watch for them? Who is watching, and what can they do about it?

You would be surprised how patient some players/teams are. Some "prepare" for years. The "preparation" is the game for them, it keeps them interested. Winning is secondary, until the big prize is within reach. I gave you the formula for cheating win-loss systems. That formula can also be used to cheat systems that actually try to measure your ability and not just your average performance. However, to cheat those systems you also have to hide your ability when you win - simply losing isn't enough. From that perspective, the win-loss systems are actually EASIER to cheat.

This tactic is generally only useful to "prepare" for a big playoff or championship, and if your bad play during the season keeps you out of the big event, you get no benefit from your manipulation. A simple way to counter this tactic is to give more weight to performance in big events.
And now we have the response to the OP's statement:

"To judge someone off 1-2 games and move them up or down at these bigger events is rediculous"

It's not ridiculous, it's why cheaters cheat.

Every system starts off simple. Simple works on a small scale. Simple works when everyone knows everyone, or at least when those in charge know everyone. Simple works when there is no large prize to attract cheaters.

When you get bigger, and you no longer know everyone, and your prize is big enough to invite cheaters, simple breaks down quickly. You have already hinted at changes that may have to occur to combat cheaters should they appear in the simple systems you support. Simple changes, yes, but over time the simple changes add up and the system itself becomes more and more complex. Seriously, the only way to avoid it is to stay small.
 
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