Handicapped tournaments that rate players based on their league rating. Fair or not?

[mikepage]

I wonder if you think that a players league rating is the fair way to rank a player in a handicapped tournament?

Have you ever been in one where you were spotting a player a number of games, whom you thought played on an even level with you?

I wonder how often players get under ranked, just because they have a lower league rating then they should have, and they end up winning the events most of the time because they were under rated.

There is a big handicapped 9 ball tournament coming up in a few weeks (that is for locals only, and league players only), and I think they might let me play (possibly), but if they would, then I would probably have to play as a 9, and I do not think I would have any chance if rated that high.

Anyways, I am betting that it will be a 5 or a 6 who wins it, unless one of the 9's catch a really high gear and beat the odds.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

My thought is you should consider that while the ratings may not be perfect the organizers likely are motivated by the right thing--providing a quality event that many people can enjoy.

Erring on the high side for a newer player like you is common and you should just think of it as part of the underlined objective above.

My recommendation: unless the entry fee dips into the rent money, suck it up and play as a 9 and do the best you can.

 

[Island Drive]

Is life fair, that's the first question?
Pool players mindsets in general are ''what's in in for me'' and how can I get the best of it. It's the way of the road and life as you keep your head above water just to survive. Handicapping is Extremely difficult to do in pool....and be fair at the same time. It's main motivator is to not lose your regulars by having the leopards/sharks take your bait and leave w/o doing much when they roam. I'm sure some rooms offer a fair type of handicap manner or system, and others don't, again that's life and the mindset of the local terrain. Often tho the local hotshot who's ego gets....hurt by some non-macho player, who plays to enjoy his free time and compete. The local establishment often times listens and grooms his event according to the local hotshot thinking he knows more and what's right or wrong with the current set-up. The same chit happens in work and in everything. One things for sure, spend enough time in a pool room and around, and the same personalities on the pool table show up everywhere else in life. This will give you a big advantage down the road ''reading'' whom your dealing with in business and play and lifes moments. Pool rooms and competition are great teachers in the ''grow up'' mentality of life, some tho, never get it.

 

[Ak Guy]

Got me....

My little hick Alaskan town does not have any thing in the way of a real organized league, other then a bar league I won't play in due to the crumby bar box tables and
"bar rules".

When I play any one I just want to play against the table and try to win. If I loose I shake their hand and try again. The last thing want is some kind of spot or advantage given to me.

I only have one guy that comes to my house that is better then me, but not by much and if I am on "my game" and he is not on "his game" I will beat him in a match, which is usually a race to 9 in 9 Ball on my 9' table. If he slacked or offered to give me a spot I would say, "no thanks, I would rather loose then win with a handicap".

When ever I play him I almost always shoot my best because I have to in order to win.

I guess if one is ok with "handicaps" then have fun with it, if your not then don't participate. Pool is supposed to be fun, so have fun playing pool!

 

[nine_ball6970]

I agree. The proliferation of handicapped tournaments is just another symptom of our society moving towards an entitled and liberal mindset, where everyone deserves a trophy. It's taking the hard work and effort of an advanced player and "redistributing the wealth" to less accomplished or motivated players. With that said, it's better than no tournament, and I understand the need to bring new players into the fold. Can't please everyone I guess.

What is the difference between tournaments and gambling? In both scenarios you are putting money on the line to test your skills vs other people. Players who are willing to give up a spot to a weaker player when gambling expect the same player to play them even in a tournament. This makes no sense to me. It isn't about entitlement. The weaker player wants to know they can still be competitive when forking over their hard earned money.

Someone brought up they would happily still play their weekly tournament if guys like Efren showed up regularly and would play them even. Now most people who say that is because their weekly tournament has a $10 entry. Bump the entry up to $50 and are you still playing every week? What about $100? As the money means more to you, I believe you would want to even the playing field.

 

[BmoreMoney]

This is one reason there isn't a pro tour. There is a small group of top tier pros who would win the lion's share of all the prize funds. Say you needed 64 players per tourney at 1k a player for a tour. There may realistically be 3/4 of the field who do not have the skills to win vs top tier players. How long do you think those players would keep putting in 1k a week if they never got anything in return?

IMO , when talking about actual " pros " they are all good enough to beat anyone on any given day. This is especially true if it is a shorter race. If they had say a race to 7 any of them could be competitive week in and week out.

There was a very successful weekly 9 ball tournament at my local watering whole that ran for years ( would still be going but bar has closed due to violations ). We had some APA 2's and 3's, actual pros, and everything in between. I believe aside from the social aspects the reason it was so popular was it was a race to 3 winners / 2 losers with loser breaks throughout so truly anyone had a chance. Also had a rule if you cashed 3 weeks in a row you had to sit out a week.

 

[BmoreMoney]

What is the difference between tournaments and gambling? In both scenarios you are putting money on the line to test your skills vs other people. Players who are willing to give up a spot to a weaker player when gambling expect the same player to play them even in a tournament. This makes no sense to me. It isn't about entitlement. The weaker player wants to know they can still be competitive when forking over their hard earned money.

Someone brought up they would happily still play their weekly tournament if guys like Efren showed up regularly and would play them even. Now most people who say that is because their weekly tournament has a $10 entry. Bump the entry up to $50 and are you still playing every week? What about $100? As the money means more to you, I believe you would want to even the playing field.

Ya know what's funny though, you can bet that usually when someone's matching up in a cash game the " handicap " is gonna be way more accurate than a league or tourney " handicap " lol. Why is that ???

 

[nine_ball6970]

Ya know what's funny though, you can bet that usually when someone's matching up in a cash game the " handicap " is gonna be way more accurate than a league or tourney " handicap " lol. Why is that ???

Typically when gambling there is some sort of negotiation before the match starts. There may also be prior history and or adjustments at some point. Also, the weaker player usually is less willing to part with their money and wants the game to be as close to an even match as possible. Nobody wants to feel like they are completely giving their money away unless they are a degenerate gambler. Usually the better player wins anyway.

For tournaments, players are usually lumped into certain wider categories thus giving a bigger difference between players rated the same.

This is why I think Fargo will be a good thing. It really narrows the races between two players.

 

[nine_ball6970]

IMO , when talking about actual " pros " they are all good enough to beat anyone on any given day. This is especially true if it is a shorter race. If they had say a race to 7 any of them could be competitive week in and week out.

.

They are good enough to beat any other pro on a given day but over the span of a year the best players will walk away with most of the money. Look at the AZB money list year in and year out. The gap would only widen if the pros had more events to play in.

Mid-level pros would not be putting up 1k a week to play in race to 7 double elimination tournaments. Players would want longer races but that just gives a bigger advantage to the top guys.

The above is why there won't be a tour unless the sponsors are the ones forking over the money for the prize pools.

 

[Corwyn_8]

Handicap tournaments reward the player who has most improved from their previous performance. If that is what you want to reward, don't let people implying some sort of political agenda stop you. It is a way of obscuring and roughly equalizing chances of winning to encourage larger participation. Only one person would ever enter a tournament for which the result was obvious to everyone.

Rankings will always be behind in representing current performance. People will always be looking for ways to game the system (not exclusive to handicap tournaments, as a quick perusal of AZB will show), and jerks will be looking for ways to cheat the system (also not exclusive to handicap tournaments). Ranking systems can be arranged to minimize this.

One might make the argument that high level players have less available improvement available, so are less likely to win, but it isn't clear this is obviously true. Limited race size are going to (generally) favor people at the extreme high end of the bell curve. No game handicap in a race to 5 is going to make me the favorite over a professional player.

If you want to win, practice.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Buckzapper]

I entered a Superbowl Sunday 9 ball tournament. 20 to 30 players. It was $25 to enter. My first match I had to spot the guy the 5-6-7-8-9 and the breaks in a race to 5. I left after that match.
A few weeks later a player pointed out the same fellow I played and said "He's the best regular player they have in here. " I said to him "Tell him I said he's a ball banger."

 

[BmoreMoney]

Typically when gambling there is some sort of negotiation before the match starts. There may also be prior history and or adjustments at some point. Also, the weaker player usually is less willing to part with their money and wants the game to be as close to an even match as possible. Nobody wants to feel like they are completely giving their money away unless they are a degenerate gambler. Usually the better player wins anyway.

For tournaments, players are usually lumped into certain wider categories thus giving a bigger difference between players rated the same.

This is why I think Fargo will be a good thing. It really narrows the races between two players.

My statement was basically meant to be rhetorical. The reason as I see it is when gambling it actually means something. More importance. Before a bunch of people's heads explode let me clarify lol. When gambling you are putting hundreds, if not thousands of real money right out of your pocket at risk opposed to your $7 bucks for league night or your $10-$20 for your weekly handicapped tournament so much more care must be put into getting the handicap correct, or as close as possible

Also I think league handicaps ( and tournaments based off of them ) are flawed at least in 9 ball. I would actually like to play in a 9 ball league but I think the " point scoring system " is a joke! I make a 9 ball and it basically doesn't mean anything???? I think they should use wild and call balls, in combination with games on the wire just like when gambling . And I damn sure want it to mean something when I make a 9 ball.

Bottom line I think a match up for a cash game is more accurate because unlike a league handicap a person is only going to be able to " sandbag " so much. He may be able to get away with it a couple of times but people will quickly get hip to it. If he doesn't match up more fairly he ain't gonna get to play - period. I also think in general the people gambling probably have a better understanding of the game, the players, and are better able to accurately gauge speeds.

 

[Mrdodd72]

What is the difference between tournaments and gambling? In both scenarios you are putting money on the line to test your skills vs other people. Players who are willing to give up a spot to a weaker player when gambling expect the same player to play them even in a tournament. This makes no sense to me. It isn't about entitlement. The weaker player wants to know they can still be competitive when forking over their hard earned money.

Someone brought up they would happily still play their weekly tournament if guys like Efren showed up regularly and would play them even. Now most people who say that is because their weekly tournament has a $10 entry. Bump the entry up to $50 and are you still playing every week? What about $100? As the money means more to you, I believe you would want to even the playing field.

I would pay to play with Efren for as long as my wallet could hold out. I wouldn't quit just because I can't make money off Efren, or brake even. For me it's about becoming the best player I can be.

I understand about wanting to grow and maintain a viable tournament, but what is best for maximizing participation in a tournament isn't necessarily what's best for those participating in that tournament.

Handicapping is very difficult and someone will always be butt hurt, but there is too much talk about giving weak players an "even shot," this will only breed mediocrity. Giving them a slight chance...okay, but even, now way.

There is so much concern about protecting weak players ego and cash, but what about the passionate player, who has a spent countless amounts money on countless hours at the table, who sacrifices to become better, what about protecting their investment.

I would rather see skill division type tournaments, or even adjusting the entry fees for lowers skilled players.

Guess I'm old school. I would rather play in the last pool hall in America, with strong, competitive players, than have a pool hall on every corner, full of milk-toast, entitled and weak bangers.

 

[Banks]

Are businesses in it to lose money?

Figure out the rest from there.

 

[nine_ball6970]

I would pay to play with Efren for as long as my wallet could hold out. I wouldn't quit just because I can't make money off Efren, or brake even. For me it's about becoming the best player I can be.

I understand about wanting to grow and maintain a viable tournament, but what is best for maximizing participation in a tournament isn't necessarily what's best for those participating in that tournament.

Handicapping is very difficult and someone will always be butt hurt, but there is too much talk about giving weak players an "even shot," this will only breed mediocrity. Giving them a slight chance...okay, but even, now way.

There is so much concern about protecting weak players ego and cash, but what about the passionate player, who has a spent countless amounts money on countless hours at the table, who sacrifices to become better, what about protecting their investment.

I would rather see skill division type tournaments, or even adjusting the entry fees for lowers skilled players.

Guess I'm old school. I would rather play in the last pool hall in America, with strong, competitive players, than have a pool hall on every corner, full of milk-toast, entitled and weak bangers.

We are basically saying the same thing about Efren. Some people will play because he is there but cannot afford to do it long term.

I believe players can learn more by receiving a spot from stronger players rather than getting their head kicked in every time. If each player has to play well to win, then they need to bring their best game to the table for every match. As weaker players get better they receive less of a spot. I feel like everyone gets better in that scenario.

As far as the passionate player, they play for the love of the game. If you are making sacrifices and playing countless hours to make money then that was a bad decision because there really is no money to be made vs the number of hours put in. Say you put in 10k hours on the table over 10 years Gotta make 100k to equate to $10 an hour. Very few make a profit vs the hours they have put into playing and practicing. That isn't even including how much you spend on table time etc.

I agree concerning adjusting entry fees. That is a nice alternative.

 

[Corwyn_8]

I also think in general the people gambling probably have a better understanding of the game, the players, and are better able to accurately gauge speeds.

From this I would be forced to conclude that there aren't people making a living doing it. If gamblers always calculate handicaps correctly, we should expect the results to be indistinguishable from random. Would you say that that is your experience gambling? That you (and everyone else in the hall) lose just as often as you win?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Corwyn_8]

I would pay to play with Efren for as long as my wallet could hold out. I wouldn't quit just because I can't make money off Efren, or brake even. For me it's about becoming the best player I can be.

How is that different from paying him for lessons?

Would you make the bets as small as possible or as large as possible?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Str8PoolMan]

If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handi(capped)...

Why can't we have both. Golf has plenty of tournaments that are both handicapped and open. Pool can have the same thing. It's not going to breed mediocrity. It's going to give some casual players a chance to compete with better players without having to put in years of blood and sweat. No one is going to sit around and think, "hey, I'm not going to try to get any better at this game so I have a better chance to win that tournament." I can tell you, that certainly isn't how the players feel in golf. Not trying to improve doesn't give a better chance of success anyway.

Bowling is another example of handicaps not breeding mediocrity among the players. I've have bowled in several leagues, and I have never met anyone that did not want to improve and lower their handicap.

Now basing player handicaps on their league rating may not be fair, depending on how many different leagues are represented, or if the league's rating system is flawed. I have never played a handicap league, so this is just anecdotal evidence, but the main reason I hear for people sandbagging in pool is because of the max team rating rule that causes teams to have to split up. Again, I am not claiming that is gospel, just that it is what I hear most about here on AZB.

I prefer no handicap when playing, but that is just my personal preference. I am (gasp!) liberal enough to accommodate all types of play in this sport that I love.

 

[Bob Jewett]

As far as the original question....

There are some league systems that come up with good handicaps and some that turn out really bad handicaps. I've seen ratings that were off by a factor of 2 from reality. That is, I might have to spot someone 6-3 when I should be playing them even.

The hard part is to know whether a particular system rates players fairly. I covered that partly in my first article about FargoRate in Billiards Digest a few months ago.

 

[GideonF]

I think it can be done fairly, assuming (as Bob Jewett noted) the handicap system works in the first place.

In my local 8-ball league, the player who wins the game gets 10 points and the loser gets one point per ball made (so the score can vary from 10-0 to 10-7). Handicaps are determined by adding up the number of points during the season and dividing by the number of games played. This simple system works quite well over the course of a season, with the best players being 9s, the next cut falling in at 8 and so on. In my experience based on years at the league, people's handicaps are generally where you expect them to be, with the occasional outlier (e.g., one particular player shoots like an 8 on the rare occasions during league he's sober and/or paying particular attention but like a 7 the rest of the time - and thus is usually rated a 7).

Recently, the room started running a handicapped 8-ball event, with a game spot based on your league handicap. Aside from grumbling about the 7/8 guy noted above (who was sober for most of the tournament) the handicaps worked and people were happy.

I am looking forward to the broad introduction of Fargorate, but something crude like this can work, IMO, or at least work well enough.

Gideon

 

[BmoreMoney]

I think it can be done fairly, assuming (as Bob Jewett noted) the handicap system works in the first place.

In my local 8-ball league, the player who wins the game gets 10 points and the loser gets one point per ball made (so the score can vary from 10-0 to 10-7). Handicaps are determined by adding up the number of points during the season and dividing by the number of games played. This simple system works quite well over the course of a season, with the best players being 9s, the next cut falling in at 8 and so on. In my experience based on years at the league, people's handicaps are generally where you expect them to be, with the occasional outlier (e.g., one particular player shoots like an 8 on the rare occasions during league he's sober and/or paying particular attention but like a 7 the rest of the time - and thus is usually rated a 7).

Recently, the room started running a handicapped 8-ball event, with a game spot based on your league handicap. Aside from grumbling about the 7/8 guy noted above (who was sober for most of the tournament) the handicaps worked and people were happy.

I am looking forward to the broad introduction of Fargorate, but something crude like this can work, IMO, or at least work well enough.

Gideon

This is great let me tell you!!!! Forget Fargo....... We need SHOTGO!!! Pun intended! My ranking will be based on how many shots I have taken prematch. This would be AWESOME I tell you lol. Sounds funny but I'm being serious!!!