Handicapping

W

wincardona

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bill Porter started an interesting thread just recently in comparing one spot opposed to another. Patrick Johnson contributed with his rebuttal by using the reasoning that the value of a ball is the value of a ball.I would like to help clear up this debate and offer my opinion on the matter. The debate is ,is 15 to 10 a better game for the stronger player than 8 to 6?

Upper echelon,and top players make up their difference in balls needed mostly when there are more balls on the table. If they can negotiate a handicapp where after balls are pocketed they are positioned back on the table they then are able to keep their advantage. In addition to that when there are less balls on the table the weaker player can put balls out of play more easily making it more difficult for the stronger player to surmount the deficit he faces.So consequently when there are more balls on the table weak players are always under pressure,and leads are not as big as they appear.

Patrick,if the value of a ball was the same regardless of the situation on the table you then are correct with your reasoning,but the value of a ball changes depending on how many are available and where they are positioned on the table.The value of a ball is more when you have to work harder to pocket it,agree? Balls in play favor the stronger player. Example; if I were to spot a player 10 to 5 and win close,and then change the game to 10 to 5 and we both agree to use the head end of the table for our pockets,the weaker player would win easily.

I HOPE I DIDN'T HURT ANYONES ACTION.
.
 
wincardona said:
Bill Porter started an interesting thread just recently in comparing one spot opposed to another. Patrick Johnson contributed with his rebuttal by using the reasoning that the value of a ball is the value of a ball.I would like to help clear up this debate and offer my opinion on the matter. The debate is ,is 15 to 10 a better game for the stronger player than 8 to 6?

Upper echelon,and top players make up their difference in balls needed mostly when there are more balls on the table. If they can negotiate a handicapp where after balls are pocketed they are positioned back on the table they then are able to keep their advantage. In addition to that when there are less balls on the table the weaker player can put balls out of play more easily making it more difficult for the stronger player to surmount the deficit he faces.So consequently when there are more balls on the table weak players are always under pressure,and leads are not as big as they appear.

Patrick,if the value of a ball was the same regardless of the situation on the table you then are correct with your reasoning,but the value of a ball changes depending on how many are available and where they are positioned on the table.The value of a ball is more when you have to work harder to pocket it,agree? Balls in play favor the stronger player. Example; if I were to spot a player 10 to 5 and win close,and then change the game to 10 to 5 and we both agree to use the head end of the table for our pockets,the weaker player would win easily.

I HOPE I DIDN'T HURT ANYONES ACTION.
.
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I do not have all those full qualifications to dispute a Meistro and I do not have anything to dispute any contents of yore post.However I want to add some thing here.The handicap formula that favors a weaker player may not favor that weaker player if that handicap formula is multiplied by 10.This is especially true when the stronger player is a champion caliber.
Example: if the handicap is 5- 3.: Player A has to make 5 balls to win the game and player B has to make 3 balls to win the game.Player B break gets all the breaks.player B wins match with that handicap.

Then multiply that by 10 and it becomes 50-30.The player B has no chance to win.It is because when you play a champion even for the whole day and night a weaker player will never be able to make beyond certain number of balls.Once the champion player takes control of the table it is hard for a weaker player to make a even a single ball .
what is that ( secret )number of balls that weaker player will never be able to pass even after playing for 24 hours.That is my secret and I ain`t going to share with any body.:cool:
 
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vagabond said:
I do not have all those full qualifications to dispute a Meistro and I do not have anything to dispute any contents of yore post.However I want to add some thing here.The handicap formula that favors a weaker player may not favor that weaker player if that handicap formula is multiplied by 10.This is especially true when the stronger player is a champion caliber.
Example: if the handicap is 5- 3.: Player A has to make 5 balls to win the game and player B has to make 3 balls to win the game

Then multiply that by 10 and it becomes 50-30.The player B has no chance to win.It is because when you play a champion even for the whole day and night a weaker player will never be able to make beyond certain number of balls.Once the champion player takes control of the table it is hard for a weaker player to make a even a single ball .
what is that ( secret )number of balls that weaker player will never be able to pass even after playing for 24 hours.That is my secret and I ain`t going to share with any body.:cool:
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I find this to be very true IMO. Where I live, there are no strong one pocket players but there are a few real weak players. My approach in setting up a game is just simply asking how many balls do they want. If they say they want 10 balls, I'll offer something like 25-15 and I feel they don't stand a chance. But when playing games w/ so many balls having to be spotted, it is imperative that a condition of the game is loser pays table time. They are usually more than happy to do this b/c they are getting what they think is such a huge spot.

I'd actually offered to play one guy a few yrs ago 90-30 (loser pays table time) but it never went off b/c of how long the game would take. I felt I definitely had the stone cold nuts in that game!

Ryan
 
Vagabond---aha! Know that I know your secret formula we will have to change the game next time you and I play. Now I understand how you shoot my norts off!!
Gotta' duck Pimp Daddy Vagabond or my net worth will certainly be "devalued".
 
wincardona said:
Bill Porter started an interesting thread just recently in comparing one spot opposed to another. Patrick Johnson contributed with his rebuttal by using the reasoning that the value of a ball is the value of a ball.I would like to help clear up this debate and offer my opinion on the matter. The debate is ,is 15 to 10 a better game for the stronger player than 8 to 6?

Upper echelon,and top players make up their difference in balls needed mostly when there are more balls on the table. If they can negotiate a handicapp where after balls are pocketed they are positioned back on the table they then are able to keep their advantage. In addition to that when there are less balls on the table the weaker player can put balls out of play more easily making it more difficult for the stronger player to surmount the deficit he faces.So consequently when there are more balls on the table weak players are always under pressure,and leads are not as big as they appear.

Patrick,if the value of a ball was the same regardless of the situation on the table you then are correct with your reasoning,but the value of a ball changes depending on how many are available and where they are positioned on the table.The value of a ball is more when you have to work harder to pocket it,agree? Balls in play favor the stronger player. Example; if I were to spot a player 10 to 5 and win close,and then change the game to 10 to 5 and we both agree to use the head end of the table for our pockets,the weaker player would win easily.

I HOPE I DIDN'T HURT ANYONES ACTION.
.
Click to expand...

One point I don't think was brought up in the what spot is better for the stronger player is HOW much are you playing for?

Normally I would prefer spotting someone 8-6 rather than 15-10 unless we are playing for a substantial amount. For $50 a game or less I would probably go with the 8-6 for a hundred a game or more I would probably go with the 15-10. If I am playing a top pro the opposite would be the case, I would prefer getting 15-10 if we are playing for $50 a game or less or a race to 3 for say $200, the logic being I am probably going to lose a bit if I am the underdog but they are going to have to work a lot harder to get my cash at 15-10.

Another reason I might not want to give 15-10 rather than 8-6 to a weaker player is if they slow, methodical up table player because I would get too bored with that game unless it was for a very substantial amount.

Wayne
 
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That Explains It

wincardona said:
Bill Porter started an interesting thread just recently in comparing one spot opposed to another. Patrick Johnson contributed with his rebuttal by using the reasoning that the value of a ball is the value of a ball.I would like to help clear up this debate and offer my opinion on the matter. The debate is ,is 15 to 10 a better game for the stronger player than 8 to 6?

Upper echelon,and top players make up their difference in balls needed mostly when there are more balls on the table. If they can negotiate a handicapp where after balls are pocketed they are positioned back on the table they then are able to keep their advantage. In addition to that when there are less balls on the table the weaker player can put balls out of play more easily making it more difficult for the stronger player to surmount the deficit he faces.So consequently when there are more balls on the table weak players are always under pressure,and leads are not as big as they appear.

Patrick,if the value of a ball was the same regardless of the situation on the table you then are correct with your reasoning,but the value of a ball changes depending on how many are available and where they are positioned on the table.The value of a ball is more when you have to work harder to pocket it,agree? Balls in play favor the stronger player. Example; if I were to spot a player 10 to 5 and win close,and then change the game to 10 to 5 and we both agree to use the head end of the table for our pockets,the weaker player would win easily.

I HOPE I DIDN'T HURT ANYONES ACTION.
.
Click to expand...

Since I don't play the game myself it does explain how I used to see you offer up 13-6 or 15-6 at the Billiard Cafe in Chicago to what I thought to be OK players. Those players don't seem as good now 20 years later but your handicapping method makes perfect sense.

Duane
 
Duane Tuula said:
Since I don't play the game myself it does explain how I used to see you offer up 13-6 or 15-6 at the Billiard Cafe in Chicago to what I thought to be OK players. Those players don't seem as good now 20 years later but your handicapping method makes perfect sense.

Duane
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why is 'no saint' Mr.cardona not participating in the dialogue?
 
wincardona said:
Bill Porter started an interesting thread just recently in comparing one spot opposed to another. Patrick Johnson contributed with his rebuttal by using the reasoning that the value of a ball is the value of a ball.I would like to help clear up this debate and offer my opinion on the matter. The debate is ,is 15 to 10 a better game for the stronger player than 8 to 6?

Upper echelon,and top players make up their difference in balls needed mostly when there are more balls on the table. If they can negotiate a handicapp where after balls are pocketed they are positioned back on the table they then are able to keep their advantage. In addition to that when there are less balls on the table the weaker player can put balls out of play more easily making it more difficult for the stronger player to surmount the deficit he faces.So consequently when there are more balls on the table weak players are always under pressure,and leads are not as big as they appear.

Patrick,if the value of a ball was the same regardless of the situation on the table you then are correct with your reasoning,but the value of a ball changes depending on how many are available and where they are positioned on the table.The value of a ball is more when you have to work harder to pocket it,agree? Balls in play favor the stronger player. Example; if I were to spot a player 10 to 5 and win close,and then change the game to 10 to 5 and we both agree to use the head end of the table for our pockets,the weaker player would win easily.

I HOPE I DIDN'T HURT ANYONES ACTION.
.
Click to expand...

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
now they know :(
 
wincardona said:
Bill Porter started an interesting thread just recently in comparing one spot opposed to another. Patrick Johnson contributed with his rebuttal by using the reasoning that the value of a ball is the value of a ball.I would like to help clear up this debate and offer my opinion on the matter. The debate is ,is 15 to 10 a better game for the stronger player than 8 to 6?

Upper echelon,and top players make up their difference in balls needed mostly when there are more balls on the table. If they can negotiate a handicapp where after balls are pocketed they are positioned back on the table they then are able to keep their advantage. In addition to that when there are less balls on the table the weaker player can put balls out of play more easily making it more difficult for the stronger player to surmount the deficit he faces.So consequently when there are more balls on the table weak players are always under pressure,and leads are not as big as they appear.

Patrick,if the value of a ball was the same regardless of the situation on the table you then are correct with your reasoning,but the value of a ball changes depending on how many are available and where they are positioned on the table.The value of a ball is more when you have to work harder to pocket it,agree? Balls in play favor the stronger player. Example; if I were to spot a player 10 to 5 and win close,and then change the game to 10 to 5 and we both agree to use the head end of the table for our pockets,the weaker player would win easily.

I HOPE I DIDN'T HURT ANYONES ACTION.
.
Click to expand...

Absolutely right.... The big thing I noticed in the other thread is that the posters that aren't, or at least don't seem to be, well versed in handicapping action. They think 1P handicaps are a cookie cutter, lets do the math and calculate how we match up. Like JoeyA said, that doesn't work in "Real Time" gambling.... IMO, what they fail to see is that there are probably close to 20 variables to break down a particular players 1P game: the break, getting out of the break, early positioning, middle game, end game, banking, kicking, shotmaking, etc... And weight has to be given to each to properly contrast the true difference between the players. EG: What is it worth if player A breaks the balls perfect and player B is horrible at getting out of the break? It's huge! Probably worth at least 2 to maybe as high as 3-1/2 balls.... If they are playing 8-6, the spot has been negated and player B is actually spotting or playing even player A after one inning of play. Unless player B plays a jam up middle/end game, he has no chance from there......

Saw
 
What about rotation games?

Billy, I would appreciate your thoughts on this. Both players are of the same skill level. What is a good format to keep luck from creeping in and giving an advantage to the other player? Which game would you prefer, 9-ball or 10-ball? Ahead or race to xx? I would prefer to play 14.1, but people around here look at me like I'm crazy for suggesting it.

Thanks,
Chris
 
Big C said:
Billy, I would appreciate your thoughts on this. Both players are of the same skill level. What is a good format to keep luck from creeping in and giving an advantage to the other player? Which game would you prefer, 9-ball or 10-ball? Ahead or race to xx? I would prefer to play 14.1, but people around here look at me like I'm crazy for suggesting it.

Thanks,
Chris
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You didn't ask me, but I'm answering anyway. I think there is less luck in One Pocket than any other pool game. For example, if you can spot a guy the seven ball in 9-Ball, he may beat you in a Race To Nine, playing even. But if you play a couple of balls above a guy in One Pocket, he will have trouble ever beating you in a Race To Four (playing even of course). You might win every time you play.
 
Because

jay helfert said:
You didn't ask me, but I'm answering anyway. I think there is less luck in One Pocket than any other pool game. For example, if you can spot a guy the seven ball in 9-Ball, he may beat you in a Race To Nine, playing even. But if you play a couple of balls above a guy in One Pocket, he will have trouble ever beating you in a Race To Four (playing even of course). You might win every time you play.
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That is true Jay, and because there are so many more opportunities for errors in 1 pocket, mental as well as physical. In 9 ball, you have to shoot a certain ball and follow with a certain ball. In 1 pocket, you can choose any ball, and the ball you pick might be the wrong ball, let alone make it or not, plus you have to consider defense on almost every shot.

Let me ask you a question, which is harder to play 8 ball or 9 ball? IMO, 8 ball is harder because of the number of variables you have to consider. 8 ball is a more complex game than 9 ball making it's difficulty slightly more 9 ball would be. When I was figuring out a fair handicapping system that can convert from 10 ball (Bowliards) to other games, I had 9 ball with a 12% difficulty factor compared to 15% for 8 ball.

I have studied this quite a bit, and I win more 8 ball tournaments against stiffer competition than I do 9 ball tournaments. Part of the reason is, I am good at abstraction (or complex things) more so than my competition is.
 
wincardona said:
Bill Porter started an interesting thread just recently in comparing one spot opposed to another. Patrick Johnson contributed with his rebuttal by using the reasoning that the value of a ball is the value of a ball.I would like to help clear up this debate and offer my opinion on the matter. The debate is ,is 15 to 10 a better game for the stronger player than 8 to 6?

Upper echelon,and top players make up their difference in balls needed mostly when there are more balls on the table. If they can negotiate a handicapp where after balls are pocketed they are positioned back on the table they then are able to keep their advantage. In addition to that when there are less balls on the table the weaker player can put balls out of play more easily making it more difficult for the stronger player to surmount the deficit he faces.So consequently when there are more balls on the table weak players are always under pressure,and leads are not as big as they appear.

Patrick,if the value of a ball was the same regardless of the situation on the table you then are correct with your reasoning,but the value of a ball changes depending on how many are available and where they are positioned on the table.The value of a ball is more when you have to work harder to pocket it,agree? Balls in play favor the stronger player. Example; if I were to spot a player 10 to 5 and win close,and then change the game to 10 to 5 and we both agree to use the head end of the table for our pockets,the weaker player would win easily.

I HOPE I DIDN'T HURT ANYONES ACTION.
.
Click to expand...
I love how his posts always have such a lovely flow...Thats nice. GJ Cardone although me being an Alabama boy I had to read your post twice to understand it due to all em big wurdz.
 
You too Jay!

jay helfert said:
You didn't ask me, but I'm answering anyway. I think there is less luck in One Pocket than any other pool game. For example, if you can spot a guy the seven ball in 9-Ball, he may beat you in a Race To Nine, playing even. But if you play a couple of balls above a guy in One Pocket, he will have trouble ever beating you in a Race To Four (playing even of course). You might win every time you play.
Click to expand...
I didn't mean to alienate anyone and I certainly welcome your opinion. Rep to you sir.:)
 
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