Has anyone heard of this happening? (APA Question)

[Da Poet]

I just found out that one of my players who was a three before our last match has just been bumped to a five because of one match. (his tenth in the last week of the session) He played a five, won the lag, got a great break, had all easy shots and ran down to the eight, and missed. The five he was playing then made one and then totally dogged his second shot leaving the cue ball right in line with the eight. My three is out in the first match in one inning.

The next game I wasn't watching closely, but somehow in the second inning, the five knocks the eight in early for the 2nd loss and it's over.

My three was 50% as a four in the first six matches, got bumped down to a three, won his next two, got bumped back up to a four, lost his ninth match, got bumped back down to a three, and then won this match and got bumped up to a five.

The thing is my guy had absolutely nothing to do with his opponent knocking in the eight early in the second match. Can anyone tell me how this all of a sudden makes him a five? Is there any way that this is numerically possible in the system, or was it more likely that a complaint of some type resulted in an artificial manuver by the LO? I have spoken to my LO about this, and he said that the other team did complain on their scoresheet that they thought my guy wasn't a three, but that no one complained about it before and that it was strictly a numerical thing that had nothing to do with the complaint. But I am still wondering how this is possible. Anyone heard of anything like this happening before?


Aye chihuahua. Kind of a curious blow at the end of a long session.

 

[MrLucky]

The APA scoring is a cumulative group of things...

I just found out that one of my players who was a three before our last match has just been bumped to a five because of one match. (his tenth in the last week of the session) He played a five, won the lag, got a great break, had all easy shots and ran down to the eight, and missed. The five he was playing then made one and then totally dogged his second shot leaving the cue ball right in line with the eight. My three is out in the first match in one inning.

The next game I wasn't watching closely, but somehow in the second inning, the five knocks the eight in early for the 2nd loss and it's over.

My three was 50% as a four in the first six matches, got bumped down to a three, won his next two, got bumped back up to a four, lost his ninth match, got bumped back down to a three, and then won this match and got bumped up to a five.

The thing is my guy had absolutely nothing to do with his opponent knocking in the eight early in the second match. Can anyone tell me how this all of a sudden makes him a five? Is there any way that this is numerically possible in the system, or was it more likely that a complaint of some type resulted in an artificial manuver by the LO? I have spoken to my LO about this, and he said that the other team did complain on their scoresheet that they thought my guy wasn't a three, but that no one complained about it before and that it was strictly a numerical thing that had nothing to do with the complaint. But I am still wondering how this is possible. Anyone heard of anything like this happening before?


Aye chihuahua. Kind of a curious blow at the end of a long session.

running from number of defense shots, innings and wins and losses factored by the level of player played against in each match for the last 20 matches! Added to this if you go to a higher level play ie: City Finals or Nationals you play at the highest level reached during that previous session. My team is in the playoffs now and my 3 went up to a 4 although he had only played as a 4 1 week in the beginning of the session

But in your example if your player beat a higher handicap in low innings and or had some defenses marked he or she can be raised more than 1 level it is rare that it happens but I have seen and been victimized by this same thing.

 

[Da Poet]

running from number of defense shots, innings and wins and losses factored by the level of player played against in each match for the last 20 matches! Added to this if you go to a higher level play ie: City Finals or Nationals you play at the highest level reached during that previous session. My team is in the playoffs now and my 3 went up to a 4 although he had only played as a 4 1 week in the beginning of the session

But in your example if your player beat a higher handicap in low innings and or had some defenses marked he or she can be raised more than 1 level it is rare that it happens but I have seen and been victimized by this same thing.

Yeah, this guy just started APA this session for the first time and this was his tenth match.

I was talking to the LO and he said that the national office decides these things. If I really thought he should be a five, I would understand. The guy doesn't even have his own cue and rarely practices with the team. It's not my guy's fault his drunk opponent screwed up.

It's one thing if it happens in the middle of the session, it is completely ridiculous that something like this is allowed to happen right before the playoffs after a 19 week session.

It's just stupid.

 

[MrLucky]

Well look at it this way...

Yeah, this guy just started APA this session for the first time and this was his tenth match.

I was talking to the LO and he said that the national office decides these things. If I really thought he should be a five, I would understand. The guy doesn't even have his own cue and rarely practices with the team. It's not my guy's fault his drunk opponent screwed up.

It's one thing if it happens in the middle of the session, it is completely ridiculous that something like this is allowed to happen right before the playoffs after a 19 week session.

It's just stupid.

In our case we are in playoffs only able to post 4 players to make 19 pts since I can't post 5 now under the 23point rule. at least you have a chance to get your player down since he only has 10 scores any games he plays will affect his rating as they add to the 20 that is utilized!

 

[ajrack]

aNOTHER FINE PROBLEM

I've seen it many times...A legitamite three who cannnot make a ball in the hole from 4 ft, happens to beat a 7 because the 7 scratches a couple of times and everyone complains they shouldn't beat a 7! AND then to make it worse they raise them to a 4 or 5!

gREAT SYSTEM!!!

 

[MrLucky]

actually...

I've seen it many times...A legitamite three who cannnot make a ball in the hole from 4 ft, happens to beat a 7 because the 7 scratches a couple of times and everyone complains they shouldn't beat a 7! AND then to make it worse they raise them to a 4 or 5!

gREAT SYSTEM!!!

In the situation you have outlined if the captains or scorekeepers were marking the sheets properly ! as in 8ot then this would not happen that is why its important to properly mark defenses (yes they will count against you !) and things like 8ot if you do this the player should not be raised without something else coming into play!

 

[Endymion]

I woukd bet that the early 8 did not make it from the scoresheet to the computer. I've seen worse things happen (like no innings).

 

[Da Poet]

I woukd bet that the early 8 did not make it from the scoresheet to the computer. I've seen worse things happen (like no innings).

That's the first thing I thought. But one of the reasons I'm posting here about this is that he said that the E-8 did make it as far as being scored properly, AND it didn't make ANY difference.

I'm just curious if this was the national numerical plan or if the LO maybe made an honest mistake?

 

[Da Poet]

I've seen it many times...A legitamite three who cannnot make a ball in the hole from 4 ft, happens to beat a 7 because the 7 scratches a couple of times and everyone complains they shouldn't beat a 7! AND then to make it worse they raise them to a 4 or 5!

gREAT SYSTEM!!!

I have to admit your use of the capital letter sucks, but you make a good point.

 

[rlw]

the apa does strange things, a few years ago a lady on my team a 2 was playing a match against a 4, never made a ball and won the match because her opponent made the 8 in the wrong pocket two games in a row. the apa raised her to a 3.

go figure.

 

[sde]

That's the first thing I thought. But one of the reasons I'm posting here about this is that he said that the E-8 did make it as far as being scored properly, AND it didn't make ANY difference.

I'm just curious if this was the national numerical plan or if the LO maybe made an honest mistake?

I believe it is part of the national plan.

I was on a team several years ago that had a brand new SL2 who went the whole session without a win. And at the City Tourney she won two matches without shooting in a 8 ball and went up to a SL3.

I talked to the LO about this and he explained that it was up the national office and that at the LO national meetings the LO were trying to get it changed, to no avail. So it was at that time that there were no change in innings on the score sheet to allow for games ending early because 8 out of turn, scratch on 8, wrong pocket etc.

Steve

 

[TheBook]

There is a lot of sandbagging. I started on the league last year as a 4 because I was a new player. The other player broke and scratched. I had BIH behind the line and ran out. Won the next 2 with no problem. Next week I was a 6 and than the next a 7. Did I care? NO! I always play the best that I can and told the captain that I will not sandbag. I always play against the best players on the other teams and they are usually a 5 or 6. They kept beating me. Was I a 7? Not really. The players on the other teams could not believe that I was still a 7. I may break and run 1 out of 10. After many many weeks I was dropped to a 6. One week I was shocked that I didn't play against a 5 that I usually play against. We always have a tight match but I always lost. I asked him why we didn't play and he said that he knew if he played and beat me again he would be raised up and he could not risk it. The sad part is 2 weeks later he OD"d on Oxycontin (spelling, not a druggy) and died.

This is why players are raised up a level when they go to the finals or championships. There are too many sand baggers. Sometimes some innocent players get hurt but for the most part I think it is warranted. As the saying goes, pay me now or pay me later. It all comes out in the wash.

 

[Jack Flanagan]

I believe it is part of the national plan.

I was on a team several years ago that had a brand new SL2 who went the whole session without a win. And at the City Tourney she won two matches without shooting in a 8 ball and went up to a SL3.

I talked to the LO about this and he explained that it was up the national office and that at the LO national meetings the LO were trying to get it changed, to no avail. So it was at that time that there were no change in innings on the score sheet to allow for games ending early because 8 out of turn, scratch on 8, wrong pocket etc.

Steve

3 years in the APA and I have seen no evidence of a 'national plan'

our LO is in another job for the last month and everybody's rankings have gone crazy,,,I know the LO does have more control over 'computerized' stuff,,,they can arbitrarily move people up or down on a whim....

our LO came back and adjusted some rankings (certain select people) in time for playoffs in June.....don't seem fair to me...

 

[sde]

3 years in the APA and I have seen no evidence of a 'national plan'

our LO is in another job for the last month and everybody's rankings have gone crazy,,,I know the LO does have more control over 'computerized' stuff,,,they can arbitrarily move people up or down on a whim....

our LO came back and adjusted some rankings (certain select people) in time for playoffs in June.....don't seem fair to me...

The LO in this area has told me that the software program (National) allows LO to raise a players SL but not to lower it.

This allows the LO to raise the SL of sandbaggers that they are aware of, which is fine with me. If the LO raises the SL of "certain select people" for personal reasons, I agree that is not fair.

If what the LO has told me is the truth and I believe it is, it is still possible for a LO to manipulate a players SL by entering data other than what is on the score sheet.

IMO the LO in this area does a good job of keeping sandbagging to a minimum.

Steve

 

[MrLucky]

Bingo~~~

The LO in this area has told me that the software program (National) allows LO to raise a players SL but not to lower it.

This allows the LO to raise the SL of sandbaggers that they are aware of, which is fine with me. If the LO raises the SL of "certain select people" for personal reasons, I agree that is not fair.

If what the LO has told me is the truth and I believe it is, it is still possible for a LO to manipulate a players SL by entering data other than what is on the score sheet.

IMO the LO in this area does a good job of keeping sandbagging to a minimum.

Steve

It is first up to the team Captains to mark the sheets with all defenses and eight out of turns Scratch on eights !!! I have met many Captains and score keepers that had no idea that they were supposed to mark these things or how! second the LO is primary in running a clean operation ! this is the part that I have seen the greatest discrepancies in my over 20+ years going back to the Busch / Bush League Days If you have a bad LO the experience of APA can be really bad ! If you have a good dedicated LO like we have in Atlanta it is so much better for all and a lot of fun to be a part of.

 

[gesan]

apa

Lika a lot of guys I used to avoid the poolroom on league night. Too much noise too many ball beaters etc... - last year my neighbor did me a solid helping me work on my car (i'm almost helpless with cars) I asked if i could repay him somehow - he talked me into joining his apa team.

The people in the league are mostly pretty nice - there are a couple of teams that are major "baggers" - because a couple of crybabies in the apa knew I played with and hang out with the "gamblers". I jumped from a 4 to a 6 cause of some kind of meeting I was not invited to. Now I'm told if I go blind the lowest I can ever be is a 5. (I should mention I seldom beat any gamblers) and probably should be a 5 at best.

meanwhile guys I know are my speed at least - are rated as 3's and shoot into the rails to stay that way.

From my vantage point the whole APA computer scoring handicap system is a joke. - just 1 mans opinion

 

[bigdaddygerald]

In my opinion the apa has included in its handicaping system a clever and completely legitimate growth structure. as your team plays together longer and with success handicaps go up....8ot is scored as a win in those amount of innings.....8 on the break 0 innings.....snap a couple of eights as a sl3 or 4 your in trouble. as your team handicaps go up it requires you too drop players and recruit 2's and 3's so you can play 5 in 23pts.

these players that get dropped or just dont play move on to start other teams .......increased revenue for the league. Its a good business plan.

Sl7 players have it the worst, some are dead before the flip, some are champions......big gap in skill there

 

[Da Poet]

The LO in this area has told me that the software program (National) allows LO to raise a players SL but not to lower it.

This allows the LO to raise the SL of sandbaggers that they are aware of, which is fine with me. If the LO raises the SL of "certain select people" for personal reasons, I agree that is not fair.

If what the LO has told me is the truth and I believe it is, it is still possible for a LO to manipulate a players SL by entering data other than what is on the score sheet.

IMO the LO in this area does a good job of keeping sandbagging to a minimum.

Steve

Thankyou tremendously for your input. This is completely consistent with what my LO has been saying in my conversations with him since my last post and it always reassuring to hear the same thing from completely different sources.

Our LO is a good guy and really tries hard to make things fair and I was really puzzled by what happened.

In conclusion, I fundamentally disagree with the way the national office scores E-8's. I think the potential for a two point swing in someone's handicap based on something as inconclusive as a single stupid shot by his or her opponent is inexcusable under any circumstances. It's the kind of silly event that reminds people not to take the APA handicap system very seriously and only hurts their membership.

 

[MrLucky]

I have been told the exact opposite...

In my opinion the apa has included in its handicaping system a clever and completely legitimate growth structure. as your team plays together longer and with success handicaps go up....8ot is scored as a win in those amount of innings.....8 on the break 0 innings.....snap a couple of eights as a sl3 or 4 your in trouble. as your team handicaps go up it requires you too drop players and recruit 2's and 3's so you can play 5 in 23pts.

It was explained to me at a Nationals event that the entire reason for showing a 8 on the break and 8 out of turn scratch on eight in the proper manner on the scorecard was so that it was not counted as 0 innings or against the player as it would if not marked!

 

[sde]

Thankyou tremendously for your input. This is completely consistent with what my LO has been saying in my conversations with him since my last post and it always reassuring to hear the same thing from completely different sources.

Our LO is a good guy and really tries hard to make things fair and I was really puzzled by what happened.

In conclusion, I fundamentally disagree with the way the national office scores E-8's. I think the potential for a two point swing in someone's handicap based on something as inconclusive as a single stupid shot by his or her opponent is inexcusable under any circumstances. It's the kind of silly event that reminds people not to take the APA handicap system very seriously and only hurts their membership.

You are welcome.

The LO also told me that it is in the best interest of the APA for the SL of players to go up. It forces teams to split and recruit new lower SL players and form two teams. More players = more teams = more $$$ to the APA and the LO.

Steve