Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?
- Thread starter Shawn Armstrong
- Start date
If you buy a Troy Downey,Rat or Josey standard cue design is that a production cue or custom? Assuming that each cue is made by one person not an assembly line.
The engineering is in knowing to drill a 3/8 hole and not a 23/64 hole, and to go down 5" and not 4-15/16". And doing the tests that determine what lowering the endmass does. Monday morning quarterbacks always think things are obvious.
Thank you kindly
So a hand built engine and vehicle is not going to perform better than a mass produced vehicle?
It's actually the exact same argument if you're comparing a top tier custom to almost any production based cue. Just because the technology is lower doesn't mean it should scale and transfer to any product.
It doesn't have to be cues, cars or shoes.. If money was no object to anyone, would you rather eat from the McDonald's dollar menu or Smash Burger/5 Guys?
If a cue is straight and has a decent tip, there's someone who's going to run racks with it but that does not mean you're going to pick-up the same piece of wood and agree it had good playability.
You want a 62"? Better stick an extension on the back or middle of your cue if it's a production. Have you ever rolled your cue with a balance rite joint extension? You should
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Fine. I'll give you a story. I ordered a sneaky pete from Bob Frey back in October. Rosewood, with 5/16-14 thread pin. 13mm shaft. Standard length. Bob has been making cues for awhile, so he isn't someone that just bought a lathe. I plopped down my down payment. And waited. 3 months later, I get an email. "Well, your cue is finished, but the blank was light, so we couldn't get it to 20oz as you wanted it. Would you like this one, or would you like Bob to make you a new one?". So I decided to take one he had in stock, as I had already waited 3 months, and didn't feel like waiting another 3 months. So I got a nice deal on an ebony model that would be the weight I wanted. I got the cue. It arrived with a shaft that had a taper roll. I voiced my displeasure with getting a bad shaft. So Bob is making me a new shaft. He said the joint may not match up, as he doesn't have the butt to match it to. I asked if he wanted a micrometer measurement. He said sure, and that it should be around .840". It's just shy of .830". I was then told there was a range for his joint sizes. Anywhere between 830 and 840.
I own 3 Lucasis. Two players, one breaker. Guess what the tolerances are on the shafts? About 2 thousandths of an inch. 4 shafts. 3 are .842, one is .840. I can interchange all 4 shafts on the three butts, and they fit flush. Doesn't matter the pairing.
So.....who is putting out more repeatable work, with tighter tolerances? The custom cuemaker, or the production facility?
Regarding cars vs cues, your comparison is about as close as comparing watermelons to suspension bridges. Cars are engineered machines. A cue is a piece of wood with a screw in the middle. Again, a leap.
They're all just cues. Not much that is "custom" about them. Readily available tips, ferrule materials, joint screws, etc. They even use the exact same machines as the production companies. They just have less of them, less demand, and longer wait lists. "Custom" is a mystique. Very little tangible value.
And you would consider a custom builder who's standard joint sizes vary by that much to be top tier? Anyone can setup shop and put a cue together. They can even do it for 50 years and still do a piss poor job.
Your Uni-loc quick release shafts are probably the most precise centering joints that you're ever going to use but that's the only positive thing I can say about them.
Send the whole cue back to Bob and have him do it right.
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Your Uni-loc quick release shafts are probably the most precise centering joints that you're ever going to use but that's the only positive thing I can say about them.
Send the whole cue back to Bob and have him do it right.
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There is a HUGE difference between pieces that have been meticulously crafted to fit together, and something ram-rodded together by a machine. If someone can't tell the difference in a simple, yet well built custom cue vs. a production cue, there is no point in furthering the conversation.
Please read the post about .01" variance in a well known custom cuemaker's "meticulously crafted" cue vs the .002" variance from the "ram rodded" production house.....that was set up by Bill Stroud.
Keep huffing the "custom" fumes.
Bob Frey. Worked with Tim Scruggs. Yes, I'd consider Bob as one of the premier affordable cuemakers in the world. He's been doing it for a lot of years.
Would you like to hear about the other cuemakers that need the butt to match the shaft? This isn't the first that I have had this problem with. You shouldn't, and don't, have to pay $1000+ for tight tolerances and repeatability.
I have an OB 121 sneaky that I bought new and had the 29" shaft swapped for a 30". The 3/8x10 joint doesn't line up within those tolerances and the cue shoots/rolls perfectly fine.
McDermott makes as good a production cue as anyone and if you want another shaft made you send your cue to them. The only manufacturers that sell shafts within those specific standard tolerances is Predator or sister companies for Uni-loc and Uni-loc Radial. Anyone else has to order custom sized cue specific or manufacturer to manufacturer specific.
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McDermott makes as good a production cue as anyone and if you want another shaft made you send your cue to them. The only manufacturers that sell shafts within those specific standard tolerances is Predator or sister companies for Uni-loc and Uni-loc Radial. Anyone else has to order custom sized cue specific or manufacturer to manufacturer specific.
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Guess who makes Predator shafts and cues? Taican. The company that also makes Lucasi. I can take any of those Predator shafts, and it matches dead flush on all of my cues.
OB shafts don't fit tight on any of my cues. There's a lip on all of them.
McDermott isn't even CLOSE to the quality of something like a Pechauer, Lucasi or Mezz. They're probably middle of the road. Mezz shafts are interchangeable on all of their cues, and they don't use a Uni-loc. They use a modified 5/16-14 thread, or their own version of the radial pin.
Any more theories?
It's very interesting that there are so few people in the middle on this discussion. I've owned both customs and production and there have been excellent quality and poor quality cues on both sides. My current setup is a mixture of both. I have a rare and beautiful Hagan that I play pool with, and I throw an OB shaft on it when I play snooker.
On the other hand, I also have a Falcon coming in the mail. It's fun to play with different cues, and I don't care much who made them as long as they are made well. My personal preferences mainly lay in cues that have a certain feel or "hit". I don't know what it is about it, but when I find something I like, I keep it. Regardless if it's custom or production. I also like unique cues. Sometimes people dismiss small time makers, but I've found that sometimes, these "unknown" makers come up with really good stuff.
If you want gorgeous woods, and beautiful designs, more than likely you will find this in custom built cues. I personally wouldn't own any super expensive cues, as it makes me nervous to even play with the damn things. I love a production cues for their dependability and availability. At any time I know I can pick up an OB, Mezz, McDermott, etc, and know it will play consistently to other cues in the same line, and that it will be relatively well made.
Moral of the story is that both have their place in the market. People get so bothered that other people want to spend their money differently. Who cares? You also have to realize that one cue does not represent every cue ever made by a certain manufacturer. I fall prey to this line of thinking as well, but if you think of how small a sample size one cue is, you would realize that it's not a reliable data point.
On the other hand, I also have a Falcon coming in the mail. It's fun to play with different cues, and I don't care much who made them as long as they are made well. My personal preferences mainly lay in cues that have a certain feel or "hit". I don't know what it is about it, but when I find something I like, I keep it. Regardless if it's custom or production. I also like unique cues. Sometimes people dismiss small time makers, but I've found that sometimes, these "unknown" makers come up with really good stuff.
If you want gorgeous woods, and beautiful designs, more than likely you will find this in custom built cues. I personally wouldn't own any super expensive cues, as it makes me nervous to even play with the damn things. I love a production cues for their dependability and availability. At any time I know I can pick up an OB, Mezz, McDermott, etc, and know it will play consistently to other cues in the same line, and that it will be relatively well made.
Moral of the story is that both have their place in the market. People get so bothered that other people want to spend their money differently. Who cares? You also have to realize that one cue does not represent every cue ever made by a certain manufacturer. I fall prey to this line of thinking as well, but if you think of how small a sample size one cue is, you would realize that it's not a reliable data point.
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I note the conspicuous lack of a description of what is so easily discerned. What exactly is the HUGE difference you see?
Thank you kindly.
It's not a theory and you saying that Lucasi is on par with Mezz or Pechauer ( production and custom cues) is absolutely laughable. Send your cue to McDermott for a new shaft and you'll see what flush actually means.
Apparently you can argue that you're not wet even when you're swimming so I'm going to bow out knowing that ignorance is bliss.
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Apparently you can argue that you're not wet even when you're swimming so I'm going to bow out knowing that ignorance is bliss.
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Yep. You bet. You said that Lucasi/Predator were the only guys that offered tight tolerances on all of their shafts. And with the Uniloc/Radial configuration. Meanwhile, Pechauer and Mezz do it, as well. And they don't use the pins you mention.
But I'm the guy that can't argue. Priceless.
You have no concept of what something being "built on centre" means. Anyone can make a joint fit "flush" on the edges when they have a cue to match the shaft to. It's really easy. What's hard is repeatably building products "on centre". That means that the hole cut for the joint pin, and joint threads, is in the precise centre of the cue. This is how you make products that are "interchangeable".
Here's a test for you. Get that nice new McDermott shaft fitted to that quality cue you're talking about. Nice and flush. Now - go get the joint facing refaced on the shaft. Have a little taken off, for fun. Put that same shaft back on the cue. Guess what? Not dead flush anymore. I used to be a dealer for McDermott. And repaired a lot of their cues. They are a reasonably priced cue for what you get. But they aren't exactly built to the same tolerances as that Chinese company I mentioned.
What did I miss? Mezz does it. Pechauer does it. No Unilocs. No radials. And they aren't Predator.
BTW, Predator doesn't make cues. Or shafts. Someone else does it for them. Just an FYI.
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