You guys gonna argue this one into the dirt, too. Lol 
Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?
- Thread starter Shawn Armstrong
- Start date
How do most guys finish sand their shafts?
I used to make cues. A taper bar is great, but you still have to hand sand a shaft, unless you're McDermott.....or have a sanding machine set up. I was never that big to devote a machine to finish sanding shafts, so I did them by hand.
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
I stopped reading here because this statement makes it obvious that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
The CNC controller is a tiny (admittedly integral) part of the machines that make up a modern CNC machine. How do I know? I design, build, comp, and service multi-million dollar CNC machines.
Your CNC controller is useless with the incorrect feedback. Your feedback is useless without the proper tolerances in the machining of your axes.
All of this is useless when handed to an inept programmer.
But, as bad as all of that may be, it is all completely a waste of money if the designer is unable to understand the basics of good design. Design is an art. Say what you will, but there are rules which dictate good design. The aesthetic of a good design will make it pleasing to the normal person.
That said, even following many rules of aesthetic design, a final design may be very unpleasant. Most viking cues land squarely in this category.
While the build quality and the construction quality of production cues may well be as good as the average 'known' cuemaker, I will contend that the better custom makers are above the better production cues in even this regard.
When you step up to the artistry of cues, you will start to see things that no production cue would ever dream of. The balanced designs of a Ginacue will never be matched by whatever flavor-of-the-day production cue exists. Mr. Gutierrez is an artist of the highest order in his style and medium. Mezz may have pulled their wool over the consumer's eyes, but they will never produce anything near the Samsara web cues. Mr. Wayne's Celtic Prince will always be able to be pointed to as a pinnacle of design. Some say it is too busy, but I disagree--the balance of the black forearm and bulk of the butt sleeve frame the intricacy of the ivory inlays. Plus, I heard that he put a raised radius on all of the handle inlays...no production cue is going to meet that artistry, craftsmanship OR detail.
Thus:
- It takes a lot more than paying a few thousand dollars for a machine to build cues. If that machine isn't set up and used properly, it will be a waste of money.
- Custom cuemakers, the top ones, all have a very developed eye for design and artistry...except SW (after Jerry, some of his were well done).
So, while the playability of production cues is on par with customs, the customs are still winning in every other arena.
The factories do not sand? McD's sander was not consistent. Hence, varying joint sizes.
Shafts have multiple angles unless you wanna get lazy. So final sanding is needed because we want them 1000 grit smooth.
Mcd takes 6 cuts to their shafts. Most custom makers take a lot more than that.
Can Mcd afford to let shafts sit for 4 years? Same goes for the factories overseas. And 4 years is not even a long time for a lot of makers.
Hit? Frankly, I can go to Home Depot and buy a slab of red oak. Cross ply that and make a butt out of it. It will outhit flat laminated production cues.
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
You may have seen this video before but think about this if you watch it.
Suppose you were a salesman .... in any business, not necessarily raw cue material sales. You have to call on your clients periodically and take orders from them as they need more materials. Your profit depends on your sales, and your repeat profits likewise depend on your repeat sales.
Now consider, I'm one of your customers. A private custom cue builder who now, after 6 or so months, am ready to order a few hundred dollars worth of materials.
I request you hand pick the best quality for me, and as a good salesman you assure me you will. Naturally you will do your best to pick the best product for me because you want my repeat business of a few hundred dollars.
Now, you go to your next stop .... McDermott cues, or a similar company. they are ready to order again also. They order a few hundred thousand dollars of materials and request the best of your product.
You assure them you will because you want their repeat business.
I'm just curious who's repeat business you value more in terms of your profits? And ... subsequently, who's gonna get that best material you promised?
This is all well and good until you consider that the guy on the factory side who is doing their grading of wood is a dude being paid $8/hr, has an expecting wife and spends every night at a wisconsin bar getting loaded.
Then...we add in the factor that basically NOBODY knows just from looking at wood what is best and your theory is complete BS. I can go out tomorrow and buy high grain count sugar maple with straight grains, good weight and no sugar marks...is that going to be 'good' wood? Is it going to be bad?
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
Who cares if you have to hand sand a shaft? I did and I could hit anything I wanted to. It took care and a lot of measuring, but I could do it.
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
Yeah, the slow cutting of shafts is an unproved theory that has been shoved down our throats for about 20yrs...basically since the internet got big. Weird timing, that...
Bill Stroud was the guy consulted by the Taiwanese and Chinese operations to get them up and running. Richard Helmstetter was consulted by Lucasi for selecting wood. Two pretty decent resources for that "CNC stuff" you're talking about.
Also, most of the custom cuemakers aren't smart enough to program their machines. I know at least two cuemakers that used the same programmer for their inlay machines.
And I guess you didn't read the part about "cues as art". Ball pocketing tool, was the concern of my original post.
Did you notice the square stock was cut to round by single point tool bit? 
No factory worker checked the grains and center it the right way.
The glue used is most like long working time epoxy. Not b/c it was the best.
Weight bolt was added to reach target weight.
The butts weigh the same no matter what the end target is.
No factory worker checked the grains and center it the right way.
The glue used is most like long working time epoxy. Not b/c it was the best.
Weight bolt was added to reach target weight.
The butts weigh the same no matter what the end target is.
Ouch.......
This is quickly turning into cuemakers justifying their existence. Pretty funny
I asked about fit, finish and repeatability. It's quickly turned into art, and hugging wood for 20 years. Let's take a look at the "For Sale" sections to see how many "custom cues" have shafts with "taper rolls".......
I asked about fit, finish and repeatability. It's quickly turned into art, and hugging wood for 20 years. Let's take a look at the "For Sale" sections to see how many "custom cues" have shafts with "taper rolls".......
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=411881
Took about 30 seconds to find one. A Sugartree with taper rolls.....say it ain't so! He must not have hugged the wood long enough.
Any thoughts, Joey? Or are your cues better than his?
Took about 30 seconds to find one. A Sugartree with taper rolls.....say it ain't so! He must not have hugged the wood long enough.
Any thoughts, Joey? Or are your cues better than his?
I respectfully disagree. There have been and always will be some very beautiful production cues. Some groundbreaking.
Vikings distorted point sneaky petes for example.
Many meucci designs are very beautiful and balanced.
McDermott has had many very nice cues over the years as has Schon.
There have been a lot of really nice Viking cues.
Beauty is of course highly subjective but in my opinion if some of these production brands had a different "name" on some of their models they would be look upon as elite monster cues today.
I had a brand new Viper here yesterday. Shaft was warped and the butt had a nasty rattle.
Wood moves. It's best to let them experiece different seasons and varying conditions before sending them out .
Factories minimize movement by maintaining temperature and humidity.
Most will never experience dry heat.
The maker AND the customer should do their best to take care of their cues.
This is quickly turning into cuemakers justifying their existence. Pretty funny
I asked about fit, finish and repeatability. It's quickly turned into art, and hugging wood for 20 years. Let's take a look at the "For Sale" sections to see how many "custom cues" have shafts with "taper rolls".......
You made cues before?
On your own? Why did you quit?
Kind of
Production cues, even new mid and lower end cues play pretty sporty with a good tip, tune up and some shaft re-tapering to suit taste. Generally folks love them and their game shows improvement.
Personally, I have a thing for hand made custom cue cues in particular SP's/PJ's with real old, dense seasoned wood. I prefer, seasoned, quality, tight grain, shaft wood. The real wood is generally horded by craftsmen and unavailable as far as I know in the production cue world. But....
Anyone that is playing more pool, stepping up that wants to get better has allot of options from the affordable $200-$500 production cue offerings these days. For the price of a custom SP someone can have a decent production player, JB and decent 3x5 case.
-Kat
Production cues, even new mid and lower end cues play pretty sporty with a good tip, tune up and some shaft re-tapering to suit taste. Generally folks love them and their game shows improvement.
Personally, I have a thing for hand made custom cue cues in particular SP's/PJ's with real old, dense seasoned wood. I prefer, seasoned, quality, tight grain, shaft wood. The real wood is generally horded by craftsmen and unavailable as far as I know in the production cue world. But....
Anyone that is playing more pool, stepping up that wants to get better has allot of options from the affordable $200-$500 production cue offerings these days. For the price of a custom SP someone can have a decent production player, JB and decent 3x5 case.
-Kat
The Sugartree was made in 2007. How many seasons do you think it's experienced?
Yep, wood moves. I'd rather it move on my $300 Lucasi, thanks. They'll replace it under warranty. And I'll get the new shaft in a week. Meanwhile, I'll just slap my second shaft (I think both shafts had taper rolls on the ST) that's an OB, and play with it (it's straight - made out of that "shit laminate" you referred to) until the other new shaft comes back. I kinda like having that flexibility.
It's going to be very difficult to sell the benefits of a $300 Lucasi over most any custom here Shawn even though you are offering up some good real life analogies.
I understand exactly what you are saying and it probably makes sense to some, however you must understand it's a loosing battle here Sir.
-Kat
I understand exactly what you are saying and it probably makes sense to some, however you must understand it's a loosing battle here Sir.
-Kat
You may want to check out how the first OBs were made. Flat laminated maple, cut circular and spliced together. But they are definitely flat laminated pieces.