Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?

[JB Cases]

Last truth, production cue will never achieve the level of top top tier cuemakers, that's for sure.

What criteria do you base this on?

How about listing out the things you think the top tier makers do that a production maker will "never" achieve?

If we talk fit and finish then certainly that's not true.

So what's left?

Hit is subjective.

Performance? Again when you add up world championships, us opens and other major titles over the last 25 years Meucci and Cuetec have been used to win more of them with Predator not far behind I think.

Design? Yes there are some top tier makers doing far out designs but beauty being in the eye of the beholder it's a stretch to say that no production maker can compete in the design arena. Kaz Miki is an invited cuemaker at the ICCS with his Exceed cues. He proved he is fully capable of using the production power of his factory to turn out stunningly beautiful art cues.

And lest we forget,

Last reported price $299,000.

 

[JoeyInCali]

What criteria do you base this on?

How about listing out the things you think the top tier makers do that a production maker will "never" achieve?

If we talk fit and finish then certainly that's not true.

So what's left?

Hit is subjective.

Performance? Again when you add up world championships, us opens and other major titles over the last 25 years Meucci and Cuetec have been used to win more of them with Predator not far behind I think.

Design? Yes there are some top tier makers doing far out designs but beauty being in the eye of the beholder it's a stretch to say that no production maker can compete in the design arena. Kaz Miki is an invited cuemaker at the ICCS with his Exceed cues. He proved he is fully capable of using the production power of his factory to turn out stunningly beautiful art cues.

And lest we forget,

Last reported price $299,000.

Cuetec paid Earl. Allison and SVB to use their cues. If they were better cues. they would have not had to pay them.

 

[Colonel]

What criteria do you base this on?

How about listing out the things you think the top tier makers do that a production maker will "never" achieve?

If we talk fit and finish then certainly that's not true.

So what's left?

Hit is subjective.

Performance? Again when you add up world championships, us opens and other major titles over the last 25 years Meucci and Cuetec have been used to win more of them with Predator not far behind I think.

Design? Yes there are some top tier makers doing far out designs but beauty being in the eye of the beholder it's a stretch to say that no production maker can compete in the design arena. Kaz Miki is an invited cuemaker at the ICCS with his Exceed cues. He proved he is fully capable of using the production power of his factory to turn out stunningly beautiful art cues.

And lest we forget,

Last reported price $299,000.

Quality of wood

 

[skins]

?.... Dan Janes and Keith Josey are friends. They discuss cues and cuemaking all the time. And, before skins comes in and speaks for Keith, I got that information directly from both Dan AND Keith.

I'm sorry, Joey, that you feel the need to attack me, or make comments about me - how I used to make cues, and don't anymore. Perhaps you should also knock the ton of talented cuemakers that don't make cues anymore due to them wanting more than cuemaking has to offer. Dan Breggin was extremely talented. He doesn't make cues anymore, either.

Fist Shawn, I don't speak FOR Keith.

Second, what made Dan Breggin so "extremely talented"?

Third, why doesn't Dan Breggin make cues anymore?

 

[9Ballr]

Cuetec paid Earl. Allison and SVB to use their cues. If they were better cues. they would have not had to pay them.

That being said, none of them seem to play any worse with those cues.
Also, they would never accept being Cuetec sponsors if they knew Cuetec
cues would somehow make them play worse.

 

[JoeyInCali]

That being said, none of them seem to play any worse with those cues.
Also, they would never accept being Cuetec sponsors if they knew their
cues would somehow make them play worse.

How do you know Earl wouldn't have won more if he had a cue made to his specs?

 

[9Ballr]

How do you know Earl wouldn't have won more if he had a cue made to his specs?

He knows this.

 

[JoeyInCali]

He knows this.

Not what I heard.
His cue now is nowhere near conventional.

 

[bstroud]

What criteria do you base this on?

How about listing out the things you think the top tier makers do that a production maker will "never" achieve?

John,

Originality of design for one:

A new fresh design takes countless hours to create.
Hundreds if not thousands of ideas are flushed out and discarded. For me it was the most time consuming and frustrating part of cue making.

Traditional makers like Szamboti don't have to worry about design and can spend more time on other things.

Testing and evaluation is another:

I spent untold hours testing every change to see how it changed (if it did) the playability of my cues. The production factories need to rely on the opinion of others.

Where the better production factories excel is in quality control. At the Taican factory they have many more quality inspections than you can immagine. At every stage the cue is checked and rechecked. I always selected the brightest and most dedicated employees to do this job.

You might also be interested in my design experience at Taican.

When I first arrived at the factory the design area was in a separate room. Beautiful young women in white silk blouses were sitting at tables and drawing and painting new designs by hand. Many of the designs were Oriental and not makable. I explained what need to be changed.

The next time I visited the design area was larger and now both men and women were sitting at computers. I spent a lot of time getting to know the designers. I gave them books on design. I constantly asked what the needed.

Their answer was always the same. Internet.

I went to the boss and he said no. I wouldn't take no for an answer. I kept asking.

On the next visit the designers rushed over to me smiling and couldn't wait to show me their Internet connection and the new designs they had developed.
It was a gratifying experience for me.

It was the same with CNC. There was tremendous resistance at first because of the up front expense but once I convinced them of its' value, they made the leap.

One of the main advantages that Taican has is the ability to design and purchase single purpose custom machines. No cue maker in the US will ever be able to have these types of machines.

There will always be a place in the US for the creative custom cue maker.

What concerns me is the lack of new concepts and new technology.

I often think If I ever returned to cue making ( I can't see well enough) the first machine I would buy would be a 3D printer.

Bill S.

 

[Sealegs50]

When the cuemakers roundtable happened Bill Schick was emphasizing the tolerances of guys like Szamboti and Balabushka. He said they understood how to fit the parts with tight tolerances so that they would hold up over time.

As one of the folks on this forum with experience over hundreds of cues from the cheapest crap to the highest quality I can say that I do agree with Bill Schick in that cuemakers known for building cues that hold up over time are also known for building cues with an exceptional "hit".

Bill and Gus made 2 of the 4 cues that I mentioned; South West and John Showman made the other two. My favorite cue is the Schick. Even my Predator 314-2 plays better on the Schick than any other butt I have tried (but not as good as Bill's shafts).

 

[Dockter]

What criteria do you base this on?

How about listing out the things you think the top tier makers do that a production maker will "never" achieve?

John,

Originality of design for one:

A new fresh design takes countless hours to create.
Hundreds if not thousands of ideas are flushed out and discarded. For me it was the most time consuming and frustrating part of cue making.

Traditional makers like Szamboti don't have to worry about design and can spend more time on other things.

Testing and evaluation is another:

I spent untold hours testing every change to see how it changed (if it did) the playability of my cues. The production factories need to rely on the opinion of others.

Where the better production factories excel is in quality control. At the Taican factory they have many more quality inspections than you can immagine. At every stage the cue is checked and rechecked. I always selected the brightest and most dedicated employees to do this job.

You might also be interested in my design experience at Taican.

When I first arrived at the factory the design area was in a separate room. Beautiful young women in white silk blouses were sitting at tables and drawing and painting new designs by hand. Many of the designs were Oriental and not makable. I explained what need to be changed.

The next time I visited the design area was larger and now both men and women were sitting at computers. I spent a lot of time getting to know the designers. I gave them books on design. I constantly asked what the needed.

Their answer was always the same. Internet.

I went to the boss and he said no. I wouldn't take no for an answer. I kept asking.

On the next visit the designers rushed over to me smiling and couldn't wait to show me their Internet connection and the new designs they had developed.
It was a gratifying experience for me.

It was the same with CNC. There was tremendous resistance at first because of the up front expense but once I convinced them of its' value, they made the leap.

One of the main advantages that Taican has is the ability to design and purchase single purpose custom machines. No cue maker in the US will ever be able to have these types of machines.

There will always be a place in the US for the creative custom cue maker.

What concerns me is the lack of new concepts and new technology.

I often think If I ever returned to cue making ( I can't see well enough) the first machine I would buy would be a 3D printer.

Bill S.

Thanks for the glimpse into the inner workings of some of these places. Really cool to be able to somewhat understand where some of these cues are coming from!

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Fist Shawn, I don't speak FOR Keith.

Second, what made Dan Breggin so "extremely talented"?

Third, why doesn't Dan Breggin make cues anymore?

Oh, I know. Keith is humble. There's no mistaking you for Keith.

Dan had such tight tolerances on his inlays, that he had to refrigerate the inlay materials before gluing them into the cue. Dennis Hatch played with a Colorado Cue (Dan Breggin) when he made his run in the late 90s. Dennis is a pretty decent player, so when you have one of your cues in the hands of a top 10 player, which I haven't seen happen for any other person who has chimed in here besides Bill, I take that to mean "talented".

Dan had some family issues, if I remember correctly. I think his wife was from overseas. He had to go back to a standard 9-5 to pay for a few complications that life threw him. But of all the custom guys I dealt with, I put him on par with your guy, Keith. They were both humble as can be, made good on delivery dates, and made great cues. But I'm guessing you must know more about the story than me, seeing as you were the guy that was programming Dan's CNC inlay machine?

 

[KRJ]

Mcd takes 6 cuts to their shafts. Most custom makers take a lot more than that.
Can Mcd afford to let shafts sit for 4 years? Same goes for the factories overseas. And 4 years is not even a long time for a lot of makers.
Hit? Frankly, I can go to Home Depot and buy a slab of red oak. Cross ply that and make a butt out of it. It will outhit flat laminated production cues.

You are comparing "top tier" cuemakes like Hercek, Szamboti, Black Boar, Tasc, etc. to the production cues... They are not "normal" custom cue makers, but the best of the best and have the resources to do everything exactly right, to the wood aging process, and the times they want to cut their shafts, etc. They are collector cues that you can play with.. .but not your normal "custom cue"...

I'll bet very few "custom" cuemakes have wood over 4 years old. I've been in a lot of custom shops, and one that I won't name had his shaft wood still in the box that it was shipped to him a few weeks earlier.

So, this is like comparing a Rolls Royce engine (custom made by hand) to a Hyundai engine. Not really fair comparing the best of the best to one of the many lower end "production" car manufacturers.

Take the avg production cue maker (USA) versus the avg custom cuemaker (non top tier) and it would be more fair, and probably show how well production cues are made.

And I do disagree with JB, the top tier custom design stands alone and why they are collectible....you won't make any more balls, but it's a work of art, the price may increase, and it's just kind of cool.

That being said, I have both. I just know for a fact that I shoot the same with either in my hand. Neither one is gonna make balls for me, and both are going to last forever if I take care of it. My "production" Willie Hoppe is nearing 75 years old with only one "make over" due to it being absolutely abused by the prior 30 or 40 owners.

 

[JB Cases]

What criteria do you base this on?

How about listing out the things you think the top tier makers do that a production maker will "never" achieve?

John,

Originality of design for one:

A new fresh design takes countless hours to create.
Hundreds if not thousands of ideas are flushed out and discarded. For me it was the most time consuming and frustrating part of cue making.

Traditional makers like Szamboti don't have to worry about design and can spend more time on other things.

Testing and evaluation is another:

I spent untold hours testing every change to see how it changed (if it did) the playability of my cues. The production factories need to rely on the opinion of others.

Where the better production factories excel is in quality control. At the Taican factory they have many more quality inspections than you can immagine. At every stage the cue is checked and rechecked. I always selected the brightest and most dedicated employees to do this job.

You might also be interested in my design experience at Taican.

When I first arrived at the factory the design area was in a separate room. Beautiful young women in white silk blouses were sitting at tables and drawing and painting new designs by hand. Many of the designs were Oriental and not makable. I explained what need to be changed.

The next time I visited the design area was larger and now both men and women were sitting at computers. I spent a lot of time getting to know the designers. I gave them books on design. I constantly asked what the needed.

Their answer was always the same. Internet.

I went to the boss and he said no. I wouldn't take no for an answer. I kept asking.

On the next visit the designers rushed over to me smiling and couldn't wait to show me their Internet connection and the new designs they had developed.
It was a gratifying experience for me.

It was the same with CNC. There was tremendous resistance at first because of the up front expense but once I convinced them of its' value, they made the leap.

One of the main advantages that Taican has is the ability to design and purchase single purpose custom machines. No cue maker in the US will ever be able to have these types of machines.

There will always be a place in the US for the creative custom cue maker.

What concerns me is the lack of new concepts and new technology.

I often think If I ever returned to cue making ( I can't see well enough) the first machine I would buy would be a 3D printer.

Bill S.

Thank you Bill for your insight. Then as now it is always appreciated!

 

[TATE]

Having recently took some time off from pool, and getting back into it, I ended up having to look at my cue inventory, and started horsing around with different manufacturers and custom cues. Perhaps, 10-20 years ago, there was a measurable gap between the custom cues, and the production cues available at the time. Now, it seems that the top quality production cues are as good as the custom cues available today.

This isn't a discussion regarding collecting cues. This is purely me observing fit and finish, quality of construction, and repeatability in the way that cues play. Predator is putting out a quality cue with CNC inlays - as good as a lot of the custom CNC guys, at a better price, with better technology. Lucasi is making a very good cue for the money - again, consistent hit, and they're coring their cues, like Predator, which makes for a very consistent hitting butt section. The other thing going for them is that they're available now - replacement shafts can be bought in a pinch, they play the same from shaft to shaft, and you have a multitude of options when choosing a shaft.

I know there are going to be a bunch of guys saying "custom is better", but I guess I'm not seeing that big a difference in the quality "gap" that was once there between custom and production cues. Again, not a smear campaign against the custom cuemakers. They will always have the appeal with a segment of the market. But am I the only one noticing that the quality gap is closing, or has closed? And in particular, the Chinese/Taiwanese manufacturers.

Remember, we're not talking about monster cues, or collector's pieces. We're talking about cues as ball pocketing instruments....

I can't say it's true for all or most production brands, but the Predator's I've seen recently I thought had perfect work. They were impressive, attractive cues. If I were out to replace my custom primarily as my playing cue, I would consider a similar spec Predator and have my shaft preference (Tiger Pro X) custom fitted to it. Would I prefer to own a custom? Yes, but not stuck on the idea. Would I be enamored with owning a Predator? Probably not, but they sure are viable playing cues.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

You are comparing "top tier" cuemakes like Hercek, Szamboti, Black Boar, Tasc, etc. to the production cues... They are not "normal" custom cue makers, but the best of the best and have the resources to do everything exactly right, to the wood aging process, and the times they want to cut their shafts, etc. They are collector cues that you can play with.. .but not your normal "custom cue"...

I'll bet very few "custom" cuemakes have wood over 4 years old. I've been in a lot of custom shops, and one that I won't name had his shaft wood still in the box that it was shipped to him a few weeks earlier.

So, this is like comparing a Rolls Royce engine (custom made by hand) to a Hyundai engine. Not really fair comparing the best of the best to one of the many lower end "production" car manufacturers.

Take the avg production cue maker (USA) versus the avg custom cuemaker (non top tier) and it would be more fair, and probably show how well production cues are made.

And I do disagree with JB, the top tier custom design stands alone and why they are collectible....you won't make any more balls, but it's a work of art, the price may increase, and it's just kind of cool.

That being said, I have both. I just know for a fact that I shoot the same with either in my hand. Neither one is gonna make balls for me, and both are going to last forever if I take care of it. My "production" Willie Hoppe is nearing 75 years old with only one "make over" due to it being absolutely abused by the prior 30 or 40 owners.

Great post. This is the type of conversation I was hoping to spark. As soon as the word "custom" is mentioned, people think I'm saying a Lucasi is on par with "Them Bones" by Thomas Wayne. Or a high end Ginacue.

I was talking about the leaps and bounds that the production houses have made in the past decades. Sure, they don't have razor sharp points, but you cannot argue you are getting a ton of quality for less than $400. $400 MIGHT get you a house cue conversion from a run of the mill "custom cuemaker". Or, it can get you a very high quality Lucasi/Poison with a laminated shaft and a cored butt section, plus perhaps a jump cue or a cheap case.

My first cue was a Dufferin Phantom. Then I got a Cuetec. Then a Meucci. Then a Falcon. And then, someone told me that I should be getting a custom cue, because they play better. My first custom was a Dominiak. It played decent. And then, after 40+ custom cues (probably underestimating that number, in all honesty), here I am, playing with a Lucasi. I have a Bob Frey sneaky arriving next month, as I have always wanted a Frey sneaky. Do I expect the Frey to play better than the Lucasi? I guess I'll find out. But for the price I paid for the Frey, I got the Lucasi with a low deflection shaft, a free extension, a tip tool, and an OB shaft. That's a lot of cues and toys for the same money.

I'm thinking that if I had a new player come up to me and ask me what he should do with his $500, I would be hard pressed to find a better value than today's production cue maker, vs the "making cues out of my basement/garage" custom cuemaker that the market seems absolutely saturated with.

Lucasi will be around in 20 years. I'm not so sure about 70% of the custom cuemakers we have around today will be able to say the same thing.

 

[JB Cases]

Cuetec paid Earl. Allison and SVB to use their cues. If they were better cues. they would have not had to pay them.

Fully disagree Joey.

If I professional has a choice between a sponsorship that pays the bills but they have to use a cue they can't win with they won't take the sponsorship, not if they are a top tier player.

Lower tier players who can't win consistently with any cue might be willing to compromise but not the top guys who want to win above all else and have the ability to do it.

There was a story told by Kim Davenport I think about him getting a Balabushka or a Szamboti and not yet being comfortable with it was using his Paradise to play with and the Bushka to break with. He says he felt the maker's eyes on him like daggers each time he broke with the "better" cue and played with the inferior one.

I think that it's one of those things where cue makers and players form a symbiotic bond where the maker tries to build to the player's desire and the player tries to communicate what they want to have.

The point I was making though is regardless of what you or I think of a cuetec or a meucci and regardless of why a player chose to bet their game on using one the fact remains that those two brands were used to win more world and national titles in the past 25 years than any other brand by far. So as far as playability goes they are good enough.

I personally don't like either one although the R360 does play pretty good. If that's all I had to choose from then I am confident I could play my best with either brand.

I base my opinion on whether the best players can perform at their best with the cues they use. I don't really have any more criteria than that when evaluating a cues "fitness" as a pool cue in terms of practicality.

As an investment I look for a lot more, fit and finish, durability, beauty, feel, pride, etc...

These days though a person can literally buy a cue for around $100 with which he could win a world championship with. That's my point. Custom may be desired but it is not needed to succeed. That said I think it's wonderful that pool players have so much choice - more than any other sport from what I can see.

 

[skins]

Oh, I know. Keith is humble. There's no mistaking you for Keith.

Dan had such tight tolerances on his inlays, that he had to refrigerate the inlay materials before gluing them into the cue. Dennis Hatch played with a Colorado Cue (Dan Breggin) when he made his run in the late 90s. Dennis is a pretty decent player, so when you have one of your cues in the hands of a top 10 player, which I haven't seen happen for any other person who has chimed in here besides Bill, I take that to mean "talented".

Dan had some family issues, if I remember correctly. I think his wife was from overseas. He had to go back to a standard 9-5 to pay for a few complications that life threw him. But of all the custom guys I dealt with, I put him on par with your guy, Keith. They were both humble as can be, made good on delivery dates, and made great cues. But I'm guessing you must know more about the story than me, seeing as you were the guy that was programming Dan's CNC inlay machine?

I also am very "humble", just a bit more vocal.. Someons gotta do it.. If you need more info call Keith yourself...Second Dan's tight fitting inlays had nothing to due with talent. It was aquired information regarding tooling, programing, and designing. Third Dennis had a cue from Dan because it was given to him. Dennis liked the way it played but the cue had nothing to due with how well he played. I was involved with Dan's production from the start and everything he did he learned from others including Leonard and Donald Bludworth and myself. I had several of his cues and at each step let him know where he had issues. He was learning and the cues were getting better when he ultimately quit but he still hadn't been close to entering top maker staus such as Keith. Not even close.. Your statement comparing him to Keith alone proves you cant tell the differences which makes your "opinion" uneducated and irrelevant to the "cognoscenti".

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I can't say it's true for all or most production brands, but the Predator's I've seen recently I thought had perfect work. They were impressive, attractive cues. If I were out to replace my custom as a playing cue, I would definitely consider a similar spec Predator and have my shaft preference (Tiger Pro X) custom fitted to it.

Totally agree. I was mentioning the Predators/Lucasis specifically. I didn't know if they still operated under the name Taican, but Bill confirmed that. Taican actually sold some of their own cues on eBay for awhile. I grabbed a few of their SW knockoffs, and was quite impressed with the quality.

I had worked on some earlier Lucasi cues awhile back, and thought they were a decent cue for the money. I just got one on trade for a decent Joss that I had kicking around. I was floored by the leaps and bounds that the quality has improved in the past decade. And the hit was pretty damn tight. I've been labeled a hack by some....whatever. I've hit with almost every cue under the sun, and would I say this is in the top 5%? Yes. The sweetest hitting stick I have ever hit balls with was a Southwest that a friend of mine had kicking around. He hated the hit, but I was a fan. Do I put my $300 Lucasi on par with that Southwest? No. But it isn't THAT far behind the SW. A Players cue from early 2000 was firewood. The joints were crooked. The finish was crap. Most of them had broken buttcaps within a month. Shafts warped. I had/have this perception of Players as being a crap cue. I recently hit balls with a PureX cue. "Shocked" was the word I'd use to describe my initial evaluation of the cue. Is it a Black Boar? Nope. But it's straight. It pockets balls well. It has good feel. It looks nice. And the joint matches up nice. One is $15k, the other is $200. I don't get $14,800 more playability from the BB. I'd actually cringe shooting over a metal corner with a BB. A friend of mine owns a masterpiece by McDaniel. He put it together and asked me to try it out. I hit two balls with it, and said "nice cue". He told me to keep playing with it. I told him I couldn't play with a cue that "pretty". I'd be scared to actually hit a ball with it.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I also am very "humble", just a bit more vocal.. Someons gotta do it.. If you need more info call Keith yourself...Second Dan's tight fitting inlays had nothing to due with talent. It was aquired information regarding tooling, programing, and designing. Third Dennis had a cue from Dan because it was given to him. Dennis liked the way it played but the cue had nothing to due with how well he played. I was involved with Dan's production from the start and everything he did he learned from others including Leonard and Donald Bludworth and myself. I had several of his cues and at each step let him know where he had issues. He was learning and the cues were getting better when he ultimately quit but he still hadn't been close to entering top maker staus such as Keith. Not even close.. Your statement comparing him to Keith alone proves you cant tell the differences which makes your "opinion" uneducated and irrelevant to the "cognoscenti".

Good lord, you really don't read well.

I said I put him on par with Keith, in terms of making a good cue, and delivering on time. That's all. My evidence that I held/hold Keith in higher regard was that Keith made 3 cues for me, and Dan only made 1. I consider Keith to be one of the best custom makers on the planet, and have said so on numerous occasions. The fact that a jackass like you is affiliated with him is the only reason I would never buy a cue from him again. Your arrogance is outstanding. You should really dump Keith, because he's holding you back. You should make your own cues instead of letting these guys like Keith and Dan hold you back.

I've noticed you're going after me, but haven't said anything to Mr. Stroud , who seems to be agreeing with my first post. Did you want to get into a cuemaking debate with him? Maybe you could point out how he could have improved his cuemaking operation? Because, as you have said (and nobody else), you're just that good.