Have at me! :)

[TSW]

First off, kudos to you for posting an unedited video. That takes a lot of guts.

I think the most important thing for you is to decide what you want. I can appreciate that you don't have the time and/or the money for professional instruction. That just means you will have to be more selective about what you choose to focus on. You can't work on everything, so try to work on just what you can.

The two biggest flaws I see in your video are (1) inconsistent stroke and (2) inconsistent pre-shot routine.

1. On some shots, you are hesitating on your follow-through. It's as if you're stopping the cue before you make contact with the cue ball. Compare your stroke at 5:15 to your stroke at 2:21. 5:15 is a good stroke. You accelerate through the ball confidently, and you made a difficult pot. I'll bet it felt good at the time as well. At 2:21, you look hesitant, and the result showed that. Try to remember the feeling of the 5:15 stroke and repeat that as much as you can.

As Fran said, it is sometimes difficult to hit a soft shot with a good stroke. What helps me is to stroke at the same speed as usual but envision a shorter pendulum. You still want to accelerate through the cue ball, except your stroke is only, say, 2 inches of backstroke and 2 inches of follow through, instead of 6 inches back and 6 inches forward. That way you still deliver a good stroke but it delivers much less momentum to the cue ball.

2. Your pre-shot routine is mixed. Sometimes you stand back from the table, and sometimes you just drop down. Here is an article from Bob Jewett describing a generic pre-shot routine that may be helpful: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2000-08.pdf

Related to this, you almost never study the cut angle. You look at the shot from behind the cue ball, but on anything but the simplest shots you should walk around the table and study the path from the object ball into the pocket. Look at 2:21 again. You have a tricky combination with zero margin for error, but you only looked at it from the cue ball's position before shooting. In a serious game, every single top player will walk around to the head of the table, line up the 8 into the pocket, then line up where the 6 has to hit the 8 in order to define the precise contact point. From where you are, all you can do is guess. That added level of precision is necessary for you to improve.

Those are the two biggest issues, I think. You can improve on fundamentals, position play, etc., etc., but all that comes with time. The Dr. Dave link provided earlier is a great resource, and I am a big fan of Max Eberle's DVDs on fundamentals. But if you don't have time to work on everything at once, I'd focus on these two first.

 

[justadub]

First off, kudos to you for posting an unedited video. That takes a lot of guts.

I think the most important thing for you is to decide what you want. I can appreciate that you don't have the time and/or the money for professional instruction. That just means you will have to be more selective about what you choose to focus on. You can't work on everything, so try to work on just what you can.

The two biggest flaws I see in your video are (1) inconsistent stroke and (2) inconsistent pre-shot routine.

1. On some shots, you are hesitating on your follow-through. It's as if you're stopping the cue before you make contact with the cue ball. Compare your stroke at 5:15 to your stroke at 2:21. 5:15 is a good stroke. You accelerate through the ball confidently, and you made a difficult pot. I'll bet it felt good at the time as well. At 2:21, you look hesitant, and the result showed that. Try to remember the feeling of the 5:15 stroke and repeat that as much as you can.

As Fran said, it is sometimes difficult to hit a soft shot with a good stroke. What helps me is to stroke at the same speed as usual but envision a shorter pendulum. You still want to accelerate through the cue ball, except your stroke is only, say, 2 inches of backstroke and 2 inches of follow through, instead of 6 inches back and 6 inches forward. That way you still deliver a good stroke but it delivers much less momentum to the cue ball.

2. Your pre-shot routine is mixed. Sometimes you stand back from the table, and sometimes you just drop down. Here is an article from Bob Jewett describing a generic pre-shot routine that may be helpful: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2000-08.pdf

Related to this, you almost never study the cut angle. You look at the shot from behind the cue ball, but on anything but the simplest shots you should walk around the table and study the path from the object ball into the pocket. Look at 2:21 again. You have a tricky combination with zero margin for error, but you only looked at it from the cue ball's position before shooting. In a serious game, every single top player will walk around to the head of the table, line up the 8 into the pocket, then line up where the 6 has to hit the 8 in order to define the precise contact point. From where you are, all you can do is guess. That added level of precision is necessary for you to improve.

Those are the two biggest issues, I think. You can improve on fundamentals, position play, etc., etc., but all that comes with time. The Dr. Dave link provided earlier is a great resource, and I am a big fan of Max Eberle's DVDs on fundamentals. But if you don't have time to work on everything at once, I'd focus on these two first.

Thanks very much. I appreciate the critique, and the suggestions. i will work on that.

 

[justadub]

Inexperience? You've been shooting for THREE YEARS!!

You're looking for tea & sympathy, a palliative from the masses to ease the pain. If you genuinely want to improve, you're going to have to take radical action, because, as I see it, you'll never improve a ball until you tackle the root cause of your limitations.

I don't think you need encouragement: You need a kicking, boy. :wink:

How long have you been shooting? "Boy"?

Hugs and kisses. You'll not get me into an online argument. I've been there, and done that. We may dance, here online, about other stuff. About this, nope. Not gonna happen. I suck, I know it, I'm working within my own limitations, and I'm gonna do as much as I can to work on it. You cannot give me enough crap to make me change direction or intention.

Try again. I know how you roll.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Looking forward to hearing from you. Just give me a ring.

Wow....an incredibly generous offer. I'm stunned. Thank you.

I would be thrilled to just be able to go to a place where any of you knowledgeable folks happen to be, if only for short time. Alas, that's the price I pay for being WAY out here in the middle of nowhere, and to be in the financial situation I'm in. Perhaps someday that will change back to being for the better, and we're OK here currently. (We could be in far worse shape, like many are.) We're just not in a position to do much "extra" stuff.

The resources we have here are amazing, so if I out the work in, I should at least be able to make progress, even if not as well (or as quickly) as I would getting face-to-face instruction. And that is what I will have to do, at least for now. I'm still new to this game, relatively speaking. I'm trying to squeeze 10-20 years of experience playing like others have, into what time I have available....sadly, it doesn't work that way.

I will definitely spend some time with those videos. And I would love to call you, and get an ear full!

Thanks again, for the suggestions and for the generous offer.

 

[PGHteacher]

:grin:
Dude, he's played for three years, without obvious signs of improvement.

HTF do you know did you see him 3 yrs ago?

He can't or won't see an instructor.

Can’t you read; he already said his financial situation and work schedule make it impossible; and he is very clear about that, he says it more than once.

Nothing he can read or watch on tv will help him more than my advice.

Bologna

This is one of the most arrogant sentences I have ever read. You obviously think you can teach people how to play pool through little “tips & tricks” that you can show them.

He plays like he's scared of the table.

Well here is something that is POSSIBLE but the video is insufficient in length and content to make that determination, I don’t care who you are or what you know (obviously very little about teaching someone how to play pool). What is he “scared” of? Maybe he is “scared” of the camera, maybe he is shaken up by the presence of his wife/girlfriend, maybe he was just in a car accident or got mugged just before he walked into the pool hall for that matter YOU don’t know. One would have to be there in a session with him to make such a determination. I have filmed dozens of students over the years and the only one that was NOT “afraid of the camera” was a film student ALL others played with some trepidation when being filmed.

And who the hell are you anyway?

1. Someone who is encouraging
2. Someone who is trying to help
3. Someone who has taken people JUST LIKE HIM from where he is to running racks.
4. Someone who remembers what it was like to be a beginner as an adult
5. Someone who is willing to take the time and effort to analyze where he is now and help him to better understand and enjoy the game.

Other than that as I have stated many times now:

My name is John Fischer, I hold no certifications, no “papers” and NO “qualifications of any kind. I have taught many people how to play over many years. The people that I have taught and am teaching now will attest to how much I have improved their game. I started teaching the game to further understand the game and that continues to this day, I tell people straight up “I am a student of THE game and MY GAME and I am way too stupid to ever “get it all”. Essentially I am a big nobody and will AND HAVE freely admitted that, and I am NOT trying to keep it a secret. I hope that I am very clear on that.

I started by reading 2 pool books Byrns Standard book of Pool & Billiards and The 99 Critical Shots in Pool. In about 1988 or 1989. I quickly realized that the people on my team did not really understand some of the simple science & physics of the game so I began showing them.

3 years after that there were people that asked me to “teach” them outside of the team because they had seen me. The years went by and I refined what I was doing into a 10 “step” course. Roughly 8-10 years after that I had shaved it down to a 6 part program that involved video, charts, papers, diagrams, blanket sayings etc.. etc.. during that time I continued study I read Kholers book and Fels book and continued to write and teach others while learning the game myself. Then I decided to start charging people for what I was doing. That brings us to now. No hiding, no shirking, no nothing but there you go

This is the last of your posts that I will answer in this thread, it may very well be that you think you are being helpful but you are not; you are being

1. Discouraging
2. Vague
3. Pompous
4. Know it alled

Sorry to be so harsh but I see people do this all the time and think they know how to teach somebody how to teach pool, and in reality they are just 1 step ahead of those guys that try to teach their girlfriends how to play pool by pointing at the contact point on the OB and say “hit it here honey” they have no clue.

 

[TheThaiger]

You obviously think you can teach people how to play pool through little “tips & tricks” that you can show them.

No. That's where you come in. My role is to help revolutionise his play - something that is sorely needed.

But it is his choice: fiddle at the margins with you or become a player with me. I couldn't care less which he does but will tell you straight, he's going nowhere unless he gains some confidence at the table and learns some aggression.

His fear of the table is palpable.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

What's up Tim, things slow in NPR?

Such bold statements from someone who never has contributed anything positive to a pool related thread.

No. That's where you come in. My role is to help revolutionise his play - something that is sorely needed.

But it is his choice: fiddle at the margins with you or become a player with me. I couldn't care less which he does but will tell you straight, he's going nowhere unless he gains some confidence at the table and learns some aggression.

His fear of the table is palpable.

 

[TheThaiger]

What's up Tim, things slow in NPR?

Such bold statements from someone who never has contributed anything positive to a pool related thread.

A redefinition of that is 'positive' is needed, I think.

This place reminds me of Weight Watchers.

<drum roll>

And next on the scales is Rowena, weighing in at 225 lbs. She's lost five and a half ounces already this year! Let's hear it for Rowena! Yeh!!

<cue wild applause from the waddling masses, desperate for encouragement (but not a salad, obviously)>.

Is AZB a self-help group? Justadub has got the bollox to post a video of how he plays, and I think we should have the bollox to critique him with honesty - even if that's not 'positive'.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

No not like weight watchers, Justadub got on the scale and showed himself to the world, AND If you read his OP, he fully expected major criticism, which he received along with positive useful suggestions

You however, are more like "The Voice", always chirping away, but no one can see you. I am sure that if we ever do see you, we won't be surprised.

A redefinition of that is 'positive' is needed, I think.

This place reminds me of Weight Watchers.

<drum roll>

And next on the scales is Rowena, weighing in at 225 lbs. She's lost five and a half ounces already this year! Let's hear it for Rowena! Yeh!!

<cue wild applause from the waddling masses, desperate for encouragement (but not a salad, obviously)>.

Is AZB a self-help group? Justadub has got the bollox to post a video of how he plays, and I think we should have the bollox to critique him with honesty - even if that's not 'positive'.

 

[justadub]

No. That's where you come in. My role is to help revolutionise his play - something that is sorely needed.

But it is his choice: fiddle at the margins with you or become a player with me. I couldn't care less which he does but will tell you straight, he's going nowhere unless he gains some confidence at the table and learns some aggression.

His fear of the table is palpable.

Palpable....cool.

I'll throw you a bone, perhaps I'm too tentative. I can relate to that, upon occasion. Some times moreso than other times. That holds true, and isn't in conflict with what others have shared, both here in the thread and in pm's. (Thanks again, everyone that has volunteered suggestions.)

But fear? Nah. Palpable fear, wow.

I shot that video on a lark. I had the room to myself, and managed to set the phone up in a way that it would work. I went into it with the thought that I'd shoot some shots, so people could look at grip, stance, bridge and stroke. I wasn't intending it to be game situation, and I purposely tried to just be relaxed, so as not to play to the camera. I wasn't intending to put on a show.

I can live with the criticsm and the critique, because it applies, regardless of my intentions in recording the video. But methinks you are reading a bit too much into my demeanor.

Perhaps not. Maybe I am a scared puppy. But I dont think so.

It's my hope that I get some serious work in over the next few weeks and months, and to record another, for comparison. And I'll make sure to approach the recording more aggressively, just for you. (And more seriously, in general. Now that I know how it will likely be seen.)

Again, my thanks to everyone for the help. It will happen, if slowly. I am too determined for it not to happen.

 

[TheThaiger]

Palpable....cool.

I'll throw you a bone, perhaps I'm too tentative. I can relate to that, upon occasion. Some times moreso than other times. That holds true, and isn't in conflict with what others have shared, both here in the thread and in pm's. (Thanks again, everyone that has volunteered suggestions.)

But fear? Nah. Palpable fear, wow.

I shot that video on a lark. I had the room to myself, and managed to set the phone up in a way that it would work. I went into it with the thought that I'd shoot some shots, so people could look at grip, stance, bridge and stroke. I wasn't intending it to be game situation, and I purposely tried to just be relaxed, so as not to play to the camera. I wasn't intending to put on a show.

I can live with the criticsm and the critique, because it applies, regardless of my intentions in recording the video. But methinks you are reading a bit too much into my demeanor.

Perhaps not. Maybe I am a scared puppy. But I dont think so.

It's my hope that I get some serious work in over the next few weeks and months, and to record another, for comparison. And I'll make sure to approach the recording more aggressively, just for you. (And more seriously, in general. Now that I know how it will likely be seen.)

Again, my thanks to everyone for the help. It will happen, if slowly. I am too determined for it not to happen.

That's better - a bit of fight. Now, show that on the table, too...

 

[sfleinen]

Hi Bruce!

Better late than never, I guess. I have a couple observations, questions, and suggestions (not necessarily in that order):

1. You mentioned that you wear bifocals, and that's why your stance is more upright. (Not that it's wrong, but your stance reminds me of a boxer's stance, with the double-bent knees in a "squat" position. Or, this the stance a basketball player would use a split second prior to springing upward to throw that long distance 3-pointer.) However, I would HIGHLY encourage you to drop your torso down more onto the cue, and try to view the shot from behind the cue ball, not over it. While in the learning stages of pool, it's helpful to view the shot "from above" to "learn the angles," but I think you're well past that stage. "Dropping your torso down more onto the cue" means bending more from the hips and waist, and less from the knees. Think of your body as a hinge, where you flex at the hips and waist, and the top part of your body (your torso) "hinges over" onto the cue. You want a tripod -- your legs and your bridge hand. I gather from your stance that there's little support offered by your bridge hand, that all of your weight is on your legs, and you could probably lift your bridge hand up off the table without shifting your weight distribution *at all*. I'm not saying adopt a snooker stance or a straight-legged pool stance at all. Having a little bend in the knees probably is good; but not the amount of bend you're showing in your knees -- you're not getting ready to jump and swat that fly on the ceiling above you.
   
   
2. Get your head down more over the cue. The problem with a high head stance is parallax error -- you don't know if your head/eye alignment over the cue is precise. In fact, it can waver an inch or more in the left or right direction (entirely unnoticeable by you), throwing your perception of the shot off enough to add an amount of "cut" that you never intended. If you can get your head down lower to the cue, you'll be able to see minute differences in head/eye alignment that you would never see with a high head stance. A high head stance is good for bank shots, in that you can view cross-table angles really well; however, it's not good for precise "point A to point B" ball-to-pocket relationships. If you find difficulty in bending more from the waist and hips rather than at the knees, you might want to try to stretch a bit before playing pool (stretching before any monotonous / repeatable-position sport is always a good thing). Try that classic stretch where you stand straight, feet shoulder-width apart, and, keeping your knees locked or nearly-locked, bend over from the waist and hips, and try to touch your head to your knees. (If you can't touch your head to your knees, bend over as far as you can -- to the point where it's just becoming uncomfortable, and HOLD for a few moments. You'll find the muscles at the back of your leg will gradually stretch, and "release" -- allowing you to bend further on subsequent repetitions.) Then, when you finally do get to the table, you'll find that you can bend over the table a lot better, with less "squatting" from the knees.
   
   
3. Your forearm relationship to the cue is quite good -- it's nearly perpendicular most times, so whatever you're doing / working-on in this regard, keep doing. Just try to maintain this as you get lower to the cue. Suggestion: in the early phases of learning how to get lower to the cue, keep your grip hand's forearm and grip as loose as you can -- let gravity "pull it" -- the cue, and your arm -- straight down. (Think of your arm as a string, suspending the cue.) Then, as you finalize your position onto the cue, "feel" where that forearm is, and stabilize it -- not "lock" it -- but rather, this is where you now want to stroke the cue from.
   
   
4. And, as much as I disagree with a certain poster's aggressiveness towards you in mentioning wanting to see you "fancy" the shot, he does have a point. You do seem tentative on certain shots, shying away from wanting to really hit the ball. Have you ever played "slam ball" before? It's easy. Just throw some balls on the table, and pocket them HARD. Really thwack the back of those pockets. Not break speed, or abusing the table, but just thump the back of the pockets. If you find that your accuracy really suffers when you ramp up the power, here's what you do -- set up a straight-in shot to a pocket, and pop that ball in. Next, increase the distance between the object all and the pocket, and the cue ball and the object ball. Pop it in again. Keep doing this until you can go no more -- you're pocketing in the object ball from a center position on the table, and your cue ball is near a corner pocket, with you pocketing the object ball in the dead-opposite diagonal end of the table. Then, graduate to doing this with cut shots.
   
   What's the purpose of this slam ball exercise, you ask? Letting your stroke out -- or rather, learning how to let your stroke out. 15 or 20 minutes of this, and you'll really loosen your arm, as well as know how to see "past the cue ball" (which is often an obstruction in some players' minds, that they "poke" at as if the cue ball were a bright-orange hot coal). And, you'll find the tentativeness to hitting the cue ball is gone -- you won't be afraid to hit it. I actually do this exercise when I first walk up stone cold to a table -- i.e. play some slam ball for a couple minutes to loosen up my arm, as well as to really see past the cue ball.
   
   
5. Finally, I see what I call the "lasso stroke" on a couple of the shots where you powered up. That is, you deliver the cue and immediately snatch it back. This is not good, because it inhibits your cue delivery -- you're actually priming your muscles to halt the stroke and snatch it back before you even deliver the cue. Learn how to go *through* the cue ball, and leave the cue tip there in the "Finish" position for a split second. Even on a draw stroke -- you can (and are supposed to) "Finish" your stroke. Then, lift the cue up and out of the way of the cue ball as it comes back toward you. Practice a couple power-draw shots, and learn to leave that cue in the Finish position for a split second. The reason why you're doing this, is so that you aren't priming your muscles for a "snatch back" which WILL affect your accuracy on the initial cue delivery.
   
   
6. Is that table an Olhaussen? I ask, because it looks like one, but yet doesn't have that annoying "dropping a cue ball into a spackle bucket" sound when a ball pockets.
   

Those are my initial suggestions to you, based merely on viewing your video "from afar." Obviously, I don't know how you aim, or what your thought processes are when approaching the table (i.e. your PSR), so those will have to be for another day (when I'm in Lewiston, ME, in a couple weeks for work?).

Thoughts / rebuttals?
-Sean

 

[KRJ]

Hey dub, Once u get some fundamentals down u will be ok. If uwanna walk thru some steps just pm me and I will give u my cell phone number.....there are a few things we can correct over the phone while u are at the table,,,,and of course if u are ever in Chicago give me a ring And I will wrk with you for free(ur buying the beer though),,,,,
But let me know and we can wrk some of this out over phone,,,,be nice if u could stream it some how and put me on speaker phone.....

Later, RJ

 

[justadub]

When i first posted this video, I did so with a little trepidation. (There I go again with the tentativeness, lol.). Then, after a few helpful replies, the stuff started to fly, and it didn't really bother me, as I had expected it, and no matter how unskilled I am at the table, i can handle forums pretty well.

Then the good stuff really kicked in. Even more great replies, with many great suggestions, and links. Plus a bunch of pm's, with more of the same. Even more importantly, it got my head back into it more. Just the few days of review, and introspection, and my next time at the table was markedly better. Not night and day different, of course, but I could see small things that became obvious, and as a result, I feel better about how I managed those things. Of course, these are just baby steps, which I fully realize. Still, it gives me encouragement. I felt the best I had at the table in quite a while. (And not tenative, Tim )

You guys are great. RJ, I have no problem buying beer, which I hope to prove to Sean in a couple weeks. And yes, Sean, our tables at the club are Olhausens....decent tables with tight pockets (two balls can be wedged in the corners) but they need professional attention. We get the cloth changed at least once a year, and some semblance of levelling, but they roll off down the rails, significantly. It's funny, I wouldn't think that they could be affected by seasonal changes as dramatically as it seems to happen, but once we got into late spring, they all seemed to get worse. Bad rolls over the seams where the slate meets.... Our pool room is on tile-covered concrete, on the bottom floor of our club, no basement. Good heat and a/c. It's happened noticeably the last couple years....oh well, more challenges.

Once again, let me thank all of you for you help, your kindness, and your generous offers. This has been great.

Now to get to working on it, dammit!

 

[justadub]

BTW, Sean, I love the lasso effect description. That's a great way to describe it.

Also, the slam ball description....a method to actually work on the "letting your stroke out"...cool.

Thanks again. Great stuff.

 

[KRJ]

BTW, Sean, I love the lasso effect description. That's a great way to describe it.

Also, the slam ball description....a method to actually work on the "letting your stroke out"...cool.

Thanks again. Great stuff.

Sean gave you some pretty great tips to get you going. You should start to approach all shots with the same consistency (once you get it), the easy shots and the hard shots. Which means to aim the same, and approach the shot the same, and even starting the shot the same.... with tip to ball (set position)

And then begin your practice strokes and be very aware of where the tip of your cue is going to strike the cue ball, it needs to go in the exact spot on each practice stroke, and your wrist should not be "moving"...keep it straight.

And remember, you aim from the standing position and you shoot from the crouch position.... and if you ever find yourself not doing in this order, you need to stop and start over. As humans, we are programmed to look downward, thus, why we should aim while standing.... so we can look downward and give our brain and eyes what it wants.....

It seemed from the video that you just were not sure about the shot once you got down on it and was not fully commmited to the shot. Especially on the ball in the top corner pocket that you hit to easy.... and you had such a huge margin of error to get on the next shot and the only thing that would stop you would be hitting to soft, which you did... just about any other speed would have at least gave you a clean look at the shot.......

Lots of stuff to work on.... my fav customers are low level APA players because they see such a dramatic jump in their playing skills after only a few hours of instruction that they are literally walking on air .....

See ya, RJ

 

[bender_lu]

hello,

first of all, rep for you for posting a video of you playing.

im not a coach/instructor/pro or whatever but i know what helped me;

- a solid pre shot routine; i go behind the ob, look for possibilities for position, chalk etc. you might watch lee s promo video of his dvd on youtube it gives so much (too much maybe) information how to behave around the table. so have looks at the table, look for opportunities, chalk before every shot etc. get COMFORTABLE

- stance, grip etc; i to had at first a too high stance, but luckily some guys of our club helped me out fast. i dont know how tall you are but i can get comfortably the chin on the cue, and im 1,93. even wearing glasses i could get down on the cue on a 6 foot black ball table for some fun.
i inspired most of my stance by snookerplayers, means my rear leg is streched, my front leg does the hole bending over. this gets my head and my body partially over the cue. i try to cue about 1 to 2 inches under my chin (total snookerstance is imho not needed on a pooltable).
i havent looked too precisely at the grip but there are a lot of good videos online.

-tactics etc; well my weak point for example is speed control, especially in 9 ball :grin: but i saw on your video your first position attempt for the 6 ball and thought "why?" :wink: you seem to play mostly with running english, try some basic drills and use draw, stun, follow etc and look how the balls run,you wont need much side because you can get the CB nearly always center table with using a "standard" english.

- for your glasses; if you dont want to purchase new glasses for pool (i wear lenses) and your not comfortable with your current ones on a low stance, you may find in some shops extenders for the.... (how do you call this in english??? :grin: ) you know where the glasses sit on your nose. but i had no problem with my regular glasses.

and even if most of the people here wont like it; thaiger, some green rep for you for your direct and imho good advice. :smile: basics, fundamentals should be developped in the first weeks, either by a coach or by a better player

edit: and they should level the table, it seems that it has a terrible roll off to the left side

 

[TheThaiger]

[*]And, as much as I disagree with a certain poster's aggressiveness towards you in mentioning wanting to see you "fancy" the shot, he does have a point.

:grin:

Is it me you're attacking for being too aggressive in telling the OP he lacks aggression?

 

[TheThaiger]

and even if most of the people here wont like it; thaiger,

Oh, they all love it, secretly...

 

[FranCrimi]

Oh, they all love it, secretly...

Not me. I think you're a bully with no class.