Have I come across the ultimate nit?

[sixpack]

I don't think they are lesser players. Though I see your point, 'face' matters here more than I am familiar with, and in ways I am not fully familiar with. Humans are complicated things.
I was surprised that it was called because it was no ones 'turn' it was between racks.

Between racks it definitely shouldn’t have been called.

 

[Sheldon]

It's sad that people will try and win with stupid nit calls like this. Sounds like you handled it well though, and will be better prepared for this kind of BS in the future.

 

[Flakeandrun]

Between racks it definitely shouldn’t have been called.

Right, and I would have stood my ground... but I'd have died on that hill... or gotten someone in a vendetta kind of mood I think

It's a bit like when I first moved here and I had my first run-in with 'face saving', a friend bumped into me and broke my phone screen. When I called him out on it in front of the group, he straight up said "No, I didn't" - despite witnesses observing the contrary. It got to a point where I said, "you'd have to be a liar, or an idiot to not understand what happened" - Giving two options, both negative, meant no way to protect his face. He ignored me for two days after. Then sent me a message explaining his perspective on what happened and why, as if taking on the role of 'teaching the foreigner' gave him some credibility or whatever.

He said, if I'd approached him quietly, he'd have fixed the phone and taken responsibility immediately. He explained to make someone look bad in front of others is how life-long grudges are made. He's actually still a friend of mine, and he did repair my phone. It's complicated and confusing to understand how things unfold sometimes.

I've also seen friends and people in relationships face the brutal wrath of 'face saving' - a colleague of mine once ignored his wife for months because she made him look bad in front a large group of friends. He'd regularly talk about how she was trying to repay him with meals, gifts and other things, and how he'd just take them and continue to give her the cold shoulder. But anyway, I digress from the thread a little here.

I understand that making the player lose face is one thing - and to be honest, would have been ready to do that, as I don't know or respect him. Sometimes I think the nature of saving face is so pathetic, pedantic and ridiculous. But I certainly wouldn't want the referee, who is my friend and has otherwise helped me a lot, to feel a loss of face. He is also someone with an otherwise good reputation as a referee - it's pretty much an obsession for him and he is incredibly passionate about the game in general.

Thankfully it wasn't a super serious event, or something with a lot of money on the line.

It's sad that people will try and win with stupid nit calls like this. Sounds like you handled it well though, and will be better prepared for this kind of BS in the future.

As an expat, you get pretty used to letting life just happen to you sometimes. I'm thankful to my friend for helping nurse me through the situation at the time. I'm glad I hung around to show I had no hard feeling, and got to see the guy take a beating.

 

[jimmyco]

When in Rome...

 

[Flakeandrun]

When in Rome...

nit as the Romans nit

 

[Jimmorrison]

When in Rome, is a great comment, it fits. “Face”is not unique to Asian culture, there are various emphasis, but it matters everywhere. If you are unaware of how your actions effect the people around you, there are consequences.

 

[Jimmorrison]

Your opponent went outside the lines, to punish you, why? The ref went outside the lines to punish you, why?

 

[Flakeandrun]

When in Rome, is a great comment, it fits. “Face”is not unique to Asian culture, there are various emphasis, but it matters everywhere. If you are unaware of how your actions effect the people around you, there are consequences.

I would say there are unwritten rules, cultural nuances, which often seem different, challenging, unknowable, sometimes outright bizarre or pathetic. I would say the concept of 'face', it's value and maintenance, is vastly different from anything you or me is accustomed to. It's like playing 3d chess trying to be empathetic here sometimes.

Your opponent went outside the lines, to punish you, why? The ref went outside the lines to punish you, why?

I figure the opponent wanted to win, the referee was locked into the unfolding scene, preserving face in front of a room full of people. At this point, I think the whole thing from the get-go is a case of misunderstanding locked in by face and not wanting to look wrong.

 

[JolietJames]

I've done this before but did a CYA and declared I was switching shafts prior to taking the new one out of the case or unscrewing my player.

 

[Flakeandrun]

I've done this before but did a CYA and declared I was switching shafts prior to taking the new one out of the case or unscrewing my player.

Don't think I did anything wrong, just think some confusion led to a stand-offish preservation of face. Going to channel my inner nit in future.

 

[Quesports]

I beat a guy so badly once in league pool he unscrewed his shaft, walked out and never came back.

Also running into nits just like the one mentioned in the original post is not new.
The pool world is full of them.

I beat the manager of a pool room, then the owner of the room. So the two nits put there heads together and changed the rules in the finals. I was in the hot seat and it was winner break. I lost the first game and they told me I had to break the second game.
There was a 30 minute screaming ranting argument and my buddy the opponent and I went outside. Agreed to split and get it over.

I went in and broke came up dry and he ran out.
End of story we remained friends and split the pot! I went in the next night and told the manager and owner to fork themselves and left! Never played pool there again.

Life’s to short to waste with cheater's!

 

[book collector]

I spoke to him before the game, literally complained about the damn shaft... I took the other shaft out, and took the joint protector off of it before I unscrewed my cue


I thought he was forfeiting to me I was up 5-3. Who forfeits when they're up for F sake??
Surely, a little laugh and a joke, and we continue to play ball? ...Surely not I've learned.


It's your mistake, all you needed to do was let the opponent and the ref know what you were doing, but you didn't do that. =your mistake.
I would take a wild guess your non stop complaining about the cue, had something to do with it, no one cares, so why bother?
I learned that the hard way, I said something in a pool room one time and this little stumpy guy kept coming up to me all day long saying
"No one cares". I thanked him at the end of the day and said , your right.

 

[Flakeandrun]

"It's your mistake, all you needed to do was let the opponent and the ref know what you were doing, but you didn't do that. =your mistake.
I would take a wild guess your non stop complaining about the cue, had something to do with it, no one cares, so why bother?
I learned that the hard way, I said something in a pool room one time and this little stumpy guy kept coming up to me all day long saying
"No one cares". I thanked him at the end of the day and said , your right"

Not sure what's going on with the reply function...

Anyway, with regard to complaining, didn't say a word during the set actually. Headphones in, playing my game. I expressed some disappointment at myself over some shots. Couple of taps to the rail and some tutting. Nothing untoward.
I chatted with the guy in a friendly way, prior to the game starting. Was in a good mood despite playing badly. So I don't think that's it... but you are right, no one in game really cares. The game is what's important.

I see it like this, I figure the opponent wanted to win, saw his chance and took it. The referee was locked into the unfolding scene, preserving face in front of a room full of people. At this point, I think the whole thing from the get-go can be seen as an extended misunderstanding locked in by face and nobody wanting to look wrong. I don't think I did anything wrong, just think some confusion led to a stand-offish preservation of face. Going to channel my inner nit in future.

So yeah, I'll ask. I'll also ask to tie my shoes, to use the rest, or pick up my chalk if I knock it on the floor lol

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

Well that really blows. I’d be pissed. In any tournament I would probably inform my opponent that I was switching shafts.

So now we can all use this as a learning experience. I have a solution. If this ever happens to anyone. Just tell the other player and ref you were getting your other breaking shaft out and weren’t changing your playing cue shaft cause you are going to play with the same butt that you break with. But then you will have to break with it.

I don’t think you have to inform somebody if you’re switching sticks between racks. The only rule I have seen is that in APA you are allowed to switch cues after the break and in between racks.

What if you switched sticks in between racks and then after starting the rack unscrewed the cue you were no longer playing with? Would that be a forfeit too? I’m genuinely interested in that question.

Can anybody show me a rule that states that I can’t use the same stick for breaking and playing with? If I did I might have to switch shafts in between my break and shots every rack.

 

[dendweller]

Stupid rule .. I guess when tennis pros change rackets , or pitchers take off their glove, the game should be called! This sport will never move forward with all the candy ass rules! Here’s a suggestion .. you concede when you tell the ref, team captain or whoever, that you concede

While I'm not shooting I could care less if they change shafts, butts or whatever.
When you're down on the money ball, they need to behave, thus the rule.

 

[Flakeandrun]

While I'm not shooting I could care less if they change shafts, butts or whatever.
When you're down on the money ball, they need to behave, thus the rule.

I grew up playing snooker, and It took me a long time to adjust to 'pool etiquette' (if you can call it that ) - I sit patiently in my chair when it's not my turn. I found it hard to believe anybody needed to be told that. I think everybody should stay seated during the rack, just like you do. All the sharking and stuff that goes on, or figuring out what that even looks like... new world to me. I am used to sharking myself on the snooker table
In this situation, I waited til the rack finished before making the alteration, and even then did so while minding my own business quietly.
I think perhaps there was misunderstanding on his part first (I'd like to think so, even though I was clearly taking joint protector off the new shaft and putting it by my things ready to put on and continue) - he saw it as concession, and called for the light, and I thought he was forfeiting by doing that. So essentially, I thought he was offering me his hand, he thought I was offering mine. Then face took over (and I'll never win that battle without being incredibly offensive in this culture).

So now we can all use this as a learning experience.

Yep, just have to anticipate everyone is a nit.

I don’t think you have to inform somebody if you’re switching sticks between racks. The only rule I have seen is that in APA you are allowed to switch cues after the break and in between racks.

I am pretty sure you are right, but there's a certain element of stubbornness to keeping face here. I'd never win.

What if you switched sticks in between racks and then after starting the rack unscrewed the cue you were no longer playing with? Would that be a forfeit too? I’m genuinely interested in that question.

Right, is unscrewing any cue the equivalent of waving a white flag??

Can anybody show me a rule that states that I can’t use the same stick for breaking and playing with? If I did I might have to switch shafts in between my break and shots every rack.

There is a guy I know who plays pretty sporty Chinese-8 ball, he uses a BK rush butt as his break and playing cue (don't ask me why). I am going to ask him if he's ever had any trouble with switching, as I have seen him crush a break and then immediately switch to his playing shaft on many occasions.

 

[Tadaimarlon]

I was up 5-3. Who forfeits when they're up for F sake??

Ronnie O'Sullivan does

 

[skogstokig]

Right, and I would have stood my ground... but I'd have died on that hill... or gotten someone in a vendetta kind of mood I think

It's a bit like when I first moved here and I had my first run-in with 'face saving', a friend bumped into me and broke my phone screen. When I called him out on it in front of the group, he straight up said "No, I didn't" - despite witnesses observing the contrary. It got to a point where I said, "you'd have to be a liar, or an idiot to not understand what happened" - Giving two options, both negative, meant no way to protect his face. He ignored me for two days after. Then sent me a message explaining his perspective on what happened and why, as if taking on the role of 'teaching the foreigner' gave him some credibility or whatever.

He said, if I'd approached him quietly, he'd have fixed the phone and taken responsibility immediately. He explained to make someone look bad in front of others is how life-long grudges are made. He's actually still a friend of mine, and he did repair my phone. It's complicated and confusing to understand how things unfold sometimes.

I've also seen friends and people in relationships face the brutal wrath of 'face saving' - a colleague of mine once ignored his wife for months because she made him look bad in front a large group of friends. He'd regularly talk about how she was trying to repay him with meals, gifts and other things, and how he'd just take them and continue to give her the cold shoulder. But anyway, I digress from the thread a little here.

I understand that making the player lose face is one thing - and to be honest, would have been ready to do that, as I don't know or respect him. Sometimes I think the nature of saving face is so pathetic, pedantic and ridiculous. But I certainly wouldn't want the referee, who is my friend and has otherwise helped me a lot, to feel a loss of face. He is also someone with an otherwise good reputation as a referee - it's pretty much an obsession for him and he is incredibly passionate about the game in general.

Thankfully it wasn't a super serious event, or something with a lot of money on the line.


As an expat, you get pretty used to letting life just happen to you sometimes. I'm thankful to my friend for helping nurse me through the situation at the time. I'm glad I hung around to show I had no hard feeling, and got to see the guy take a beating.

interesting read! this makes me understand my chinese and taiwanese business contacts better. i would like a world map where one could see in which countries this cultural trait is strong. does it correlate with confusianism?

 

[Flakeandrun]

Ronnie O'Sullivan does

I'm certainly no Ronnie hahaha

 

[Flakeandrun]

interesting read! this makes me understand my chinese and taiwanese business contacts better. i would like a world map where one could see in which countries this cultural trait is strong. does it correlate with confusianism?

My friend works for a robotics company, and sold some equipment to a company here in Shanghai. They basically played with it and 'broke' it. There was no way for my friend to resolve the issue until they accepted and explained what they had done to it. It took them nearly two years to move the project forward

I'm not particularly sure if such behaviours can be so broadly generalised that they can be mapped, but areas with greater Chinese history perhaps will share more of the same sentiments. My time here in Asia, I have been to a considerable number of countries and there are great similarities and vast differences between them. It's very, very hard to generalise. Even within China, there are vastly different cultures and outlooks on life. The similarity they share is the almost ritualistic expectation of social interactions/customs (which can differ). The level of obliged action, along with systematic, yet unwritten rules is something very unfamiliar yet fascinating to me.

I would say distinct rules of social hierarchy exist (in various formats - whether working, romantic, sporting etc) in every country. We just overlook our own that we are familiar with (and probably look equally nonsensical to them).

All I would say with regard to doing business in your situation, is don't ask an important person a question directly in front of other people. Save it for an aside, or an email. Firstly, the closeness you have afforded them will build your relationship, secondly, if they feel put on the spot, you will get pushback in some form or another. Business is not done in the bulldozer 'who shouts loudest' style we are used to. Direct questioning can be perceived as a direct challenge and taken very personally. Have experienced that first hand myself.