Have you seen a FAKE/counterfeit cue?

Well, Bill Stroud DID go to China for several months and do quality control work for Lucasi. He set up their CNC machines and taught them that everything had to be perfectly finished. I can testify that I had a Billiard Warehouse "Bushka" style cue, made to BW specs by Lucasi, with 4 points, 4 veneers, a leather wrap and a Radial Pin. It played lights out and looked great doing it ! The hit was...like a cue from a top custom cuemaker. Cost $199.95 and was a better cue than any big name American cue for twice, no three times the cash ! This is what we as Americans are up against.

By the way, I heard through the grapevine that Bill Stroud can never/ever be inducted into the cuemakers Hall of Fame because of that foreign involvement. All the money that Lucas fella that owns Lucasi has can't change that. Bill Stroud also invented the Universal Smart Shaft. Does Lucas own that too ? I think so...Tom
 
Hail Mary Shot said:
I was referring to this John, as a reply to tokyo-dave



here is what I'm trying to say. I don't undermine the capability of non-american cuemakers of improving their products nor do I refuse to acknowledge the greatness of some american cues. honestly speaking, I do like the hit of american cues. but I also keep some non-american cues, for both preferences. but to say that non-american cues could never equal their american versions is quite unrealistic. there is time for improvement and time for learning. the world wasn't made in one day.

about the price tags you stated, it is quite right, but $900 is already a rip off price for a non-american cue. have a local buy you one and he can get a $900 dollar cue for only half of that price. it's the same cue and I know so, Mr. Barton ! being an alien to another country is an opportunity for the locals to rip you off. that's just it.
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$900 is a rip-off for a non-American cue? Man, you have done more damage to foreign cuemakers with that statement than anything I could say. I think Bandido, EuroWest, CBZ cues, and Mezz would all disagree with you as do their customers who regularly spend more than that.

I never said that any price is a "rip-off" for a cue made anywhere. The only rip off is when the price is far out of line with the value received. And this situation occurs with cues all over the world, the USA included.

My statement about price was only about the cost of production - i.e. to build good cues there is no way around using good materials, proper aging, slow turning, and precision joining. These factors drive the price of production up to the point where the cues are not cheap. They are still sold for a lower price than their western counterparts. i.e. the same level of cue made in the USA would fetch $1000 and up.
 
My friend from Taiwan has a real southwest, and a fake copycat southwest. They are both 100% identical. The only difference I noticed was that the real southwest had a real nice balance to it. The hit felt the same on both cues, but they both had the same tips on them. The balance on the real one sure was nice.
 
tpdtom said:
Well, Bill Stroud DID go to China for several months and do quality control work for Lucasi. He set up their CNC machines and taught them that everything had to be perfectly finished. I can testify that I had a Billiard Warehouse "Bushka" style cue, made to BW specs by Lucasi, with 4 points, 4 veneers, a leather wrap and a Radial Pin. It played lights out and looked great doing it ! The hit was...like a cue from a top custom cuemaker. Cost $199.95 and was a better cue than any big name American cue for twice, no three times the cash ! This is what we as Americans are up against.

By the way, I heard through the grapevine that Bill Stroud can never/ever be inducted into the cuemakers Hall of Fame because of that foreign involvement. All the money that Lucas fella that owns Lucasi has can't change that. Bill Stroud also invented the Universal Smart Shaft. Does Lucas own that too ? I think so...Tom
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I don't think that there is anything in the ACA's bylaws that precludes his being inducted into the Hall of Fame due to his involvement with Cue and Case's overseas production. I think that Dan Janes has been inducted to the Hall of Fame and he had had dealings and partnerships with Asian cuemakers for a long time. In fact many members of the ACA regularly do business with Asia. They sell wood to Asia, they buy parts, they design cue lines, they sell machinery, they sell knowledge. They buy cues.

So it would be extremely hypocritical of the ACA to single out Bill Stroud for spreading the knowledge that he mostly developed in his long career as a famous cuemaker. I think the ACA would have to dissolve if their members were excluded based on their involvement with Asian production.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
My friend from Taiwan has a real southwest, and a fake copycat southwest. They are both 100% identical. The only difference I noticed was that the real southwest had a real nice balance to it. The hit felt the same on both cues, but they both had the same tips on them. The balance on the real one sure was nice.
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People rarely discuss how much a part balance plays in the overall judgement of a cue. I think that a well balanced cue automatically feels better and gives more comfort to the player.

This is something that the Asians still need to work on. I played with an Omen a few weeks ago and I was reminded of just how sweet a cue can feel. This is the real advantage that the small American cuemakers have over the cuemakers in Asia who are trying to emulate custom in a production enviroment. A Pete Ohmen has the luxury to fine tune his product to the nth degree and achieve a harmony of materials that is extremely difficult to duplicate without knowing all the steps and using the same materials.

I used to think - and this is not in jest - that one could reverse engineer a cue (or a case) and have no trouble duplicating it. I thought that McDermott should be able to make Cogs as well as Joey Gold. They probably could if they had Joey Gold to guide them. But not without Joey explaining the WHY of particular steps and the HOW. Being able to measure the cue from tip to bumper does not confer the ability to construct an exact duplicate. You can construct one that measures the same and looks the same but it won't feel the same unless the same techniques went into making it as the original.

The Asian cuemakers are capable of making some really nice cues. Some already are doing the things internally that make great cues. It won't be long until there really is no difference. But it will always remain the small cuemaker's advantage to tune each cue they make where the large scale cuemaker has to decide on a few methods of construction and stick with them.
 
$900 for a non-USA made cue is not unheard of or unreasonable. In our International Cuemakers Association there are cuemakers from the Phillipines, Japan, Taiwan and Australia that build cues regularly in and above that price range. There are other non-USA cuemakers who are not in our association that build quality cues in that price range and higher also.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
John Barton said:
$900 is a rip-off for a non-American cue? Man, you have done more damage to foreign cuemakers with that statement than anything I could say. I think Bandido, EuroWest, CBZ cues, and Mezz would all disagree with you as do their customers who regularly spend more than that.

I never said that any price is a "rip-off" for a cue made anywhere. The only rip off is when the price is far out of line with the value received. And this situation occurs with cues all over the world, the USA included.

My statement about price was only about the cost of production - i.e. to build good cues there is no way around using good materials, proper aging, slow turning, and precision joining. These factors drive the price of production up to the point where the cues are not cheap. They are still sold for a lower price than their western counterparts. i.e. the same level of cue made in the USA would fetch $1000 and up.
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Ok so that's your point John. but you didn't get what I said. you cannot compare the production costs in the U.S. to that of the Asian market. U.S. market is not equal to that of the Asian market. the production process will drive the price up alright, but not to the extent of price that what you are saying. unless the cuemaker does really want to drive his price that way way up. labor is really the issue here, on how much the cuemaker wants to get paid for his services or his personnel's services. the availability of exotic good materials is not that difficult to find either, nor do the customs or importation fees that expensive. remember it's Asian market. Man, Asian cuemakers and their personnel would be so glad to get paid the same amount that their American counterparts receive. also, do not disregard the economic and monetary aspect of Asian currencies and especially who the buyers and customers are and where the market is. 1 Dollar is not equal to 1 Yen ! that's all.
 
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Hail Mary Shot said:
Ok so that's your point John. but you didn't get what I said. you cannot compare the production costs in the U.S. to that of the Asian market. U.S. market is not equal to that of the Asian market. the production process will drive the price up alright, but not to the extent of price that what you are saying. unless the cuemaker does really want to drive his price that way way up. labor is really the issue here, on how much the cuemaker wants to get paid for his services or his personnel's services. the availability of exotic good materials is not that difficult to find either, nor do the customs or importation fees that expensive. remember it's Asian market. Man, Asian cuemakers and their personnel would be so glad to get paid the same amount that their American counterparts receive. also, do not disregard the economic and monetary aspect of Asian currencies and especially who the buyers and customers are and where the market is. 1 Dollar is not equal to 1 Yen ! that's all.
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Given that I am currently in the business of making cues and cases in China, I think I have a pretty good idea of the costs factors involved in making cues. I do't know how much cue making experience you have but I have 15 years in the business - not as a cuemaker - but as a buyer and sourcer of parts and materials for cuemaking among other things.

I think you might be a little out of touch with the current market for cues in Asia and what the pricing structure is. If you think that $900 is too much for a top notch cue just because the labor prices are lower then I submit that perhaps you should reevaluate your ideas of value.

Of course I can't speak to anyone's profit margins. I have no idea how much money Bill Stroud is making on a JossWest nor how much CBZ is making on one of their cues. That doesn't really matter does it? It only matters whether the market will support the prices they ask and if the customer is receiving the value they expect. If any cuemaker can make a cue for $20 and sell it for $1000 then I say more power to them.

The reality is though that they cannot make a cue that will fetch $1000 for $20, at least not for long until the market snaps to the quality deficiencies. Make it $25 and that's a different story :-) JUST KIDDING.

No, in order to make a cue that will deservedly sell for $1000 the cuemaker MUST invest in top quality materials and equipment and must build it using time tested processes to insure quality through the core.

This is talking about wooden cues. Composite cues are another story and I have no doubt that one day there will be a composite cue that is indistinguishable in feel to the best wooden ones. (yeah I know, new can of worms)

Anyway, that's my perspective as one who has been there and still is.
 
Interesting. I have been hit up several times in the last year or so by emails asking me to make fake cues. Especially tad's, I have turned down all of them cold. Your reputation is all you have in this buisness. I also do not want to copy someones work exactly in a "tribute cue". Seeing the picture in this post my guess is they found someone with no integrity. Chris.
 
John Barton said:
$900 is a rip-off for a non-American cue? Man, you have done more damage to foreign cuemakers with that statement than anything I could say. I think Bandido, EuroWest, CBZ cues, and Mezz would all disagree with you as do their customers who regularly spend more than that.

I never said that any price is a "rip-off" for a cue made anywhere. The only rip off is when the price is far out of line with the value received. And this situation occurs with cues all over the world, the USA included.

My statement about price was only about the cost of production - i.e. to build good cues there is no way around using good materials, proper aging, slow turning, and precision joining. These factors drive the price of production up to the point where the cues are not cheap. They are still sold for a lower price than their western counterparts. i.e. the same level of cue made in the USA would fetch $1000 and up.
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Not too many seem to understand this and just categorize according to country of origin. To survive in this industry, there is no going around the aforementioned requirements and most specially if a craftsman decides to practice his craft at the higher levels.
 
John Barton said:
Given that I am currently in the business of making cues and cases in China, I think I have a pretty good idea of the costs factors involved in making cues. I do't know how much cue making experience you have but I have 15 years in the business - not as a cuemaker - but as a buyer and sourcer of parts and materials for cuemaking among other things.

I think you might be a little out of touch with the current market for cues in Asia and what the pricing structure is. If you think that $900 is too much for a top notch cue just because the labor prices are lower then I submit that perhaps you should reevaluate your ideas of value.

Of course I can't speak to anyone's profit margins. I have no idea how much money Bill Stroud is making on a JossWest nor how much CBZ is making on one of their cues. That doesn't really matter does it? It only matters whether the market will support the prices they ask and if the customer is receiving the value they expect. If any cuemaker can make a cue for $20 and sell it for $1000 then I say more power to them.

The reality is though that they cannot make a cue that will fetch $1000 for $20, at least not for long until the market snaps to the quality deficiencies. Make it $25 and that's a different story :-) JUST KIDDING.

No, in order to make a cue that will deservedly sell for $1000 the cuemaker MUST invest in top quality materials and equipment and must build it using time tested processes to insure quality through the core.

This is talking about wooden cues. Composite cues are another story and I have no doubt that one day there will be a composite cue that is indistinguishable in feel to the best wooden ones. (yeah I know, new can of worms)

Anyway, that's my perspective as one who has been there and still is.
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Of Course John, Of Course ! that's the nature of the deal! as buyers, I guess we got pretty different sources and different perspective at the same time. if there is something that we both agree on, it's the evolution and development of non-american cues.
 
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jay helfert said:
Lord knows I've tried.
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I saw a pretty nice looking cf shafted cue one table over from me and asked the young Vietnamese kid about it. He just laughed and told me he spray painted and coated the shaft himself for the cf look. Called it his 'Plebator".
 
Outside the usa doesnt include Germany because Marcus D of Arthur cues can certainly compete with anyone.
 
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