Heavy English and Deflection vs Accuracy

K Knight

K Knight

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I have to use heavy english (2 tips + straight right or left) to get shapes across table and my CB is more than 2' from the OB my accuracy obviously goes down a little. My question is do you shift, or pivot? Meaning do you aim to make the shot with no english, and then leave your bridge hand in that spot and pivot the cue for english? Or do you aim to make the shot, and then slide/shift your bridge hand over to get the desired amount of english and shoot straight through the CB?

Please specify whether or not you use LD shafts, as this would make a difference.

If you don't use LD shafts and you account for deflection in your head the question still applies, only instead of aiming to make the OB you aim to account for deflection and are aiming 1" or 1/2" to left/right depending on your cue and distance between OB and CB. The main part of the question of shift vs pivot still interests me.
 
K Knight...Either way will work, whether you use LD shafts or not. I play with an LD shaft, and I parallel shift. Others pivot. It doesn't matter, as long as you make the correct adjustment(s) in order to pocket the OB, and get the position you want.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

K Knight said:
When I have to use heavy english (2 tips + straight right or left) to get shapes across table and my CB is more than 2' from the OB my accuracy obviously goes down a little. My question is do you shift, or pivot? Meaning do you aim to make the shot with no english, and then leave your bridge hand in that spot and pivot the cue for english? Or do you aim to make the shot, and then slide/shift your bridge hand over to get the desired amount of english and shoot straight through the CB?

Please specify whether or not you use LD shafts, as this would make a difference.

If you don't use LD shafts and you account for deflection in your head the question still applies, only instead of aiming to make the OB you aim to account for deflection and are aiming 1" or 1/2" to left/right depending on your cue and distance between OB and CB. The main part of the question of shift vs pivot still interests me.
Click to expand...
 
I use back hand english with a regular shaft. I guess this would be the same as a last second pivot. I don't claim to understand it, but it works for me.
 
I use both depending on the shot.. I use a regular shaft, short ferrule so not a ton of deflection.. It really just depends on what I need to do but I don't subscribe to using just one type of movement.. I'd say I probably use parallel more than BHE but YMMV.
 
I learned playing with a regular shaft and didn't know anything about BHE so I parallel shifted by feel. Used a ton of english, had a big stroke, and abused the english for sure. Using 2 tips when 1/2 would suffice, etc. Played like that for years though and did pretty well. My serious advice to you is to evaluate when you really need english and use it sparingly, I was always the big flashy stroke guy and while it looked good I realize now the best players in the area would just be sitting and waiting until I missed, just like I do now with similar flashy payers. With only minimal english almost no adjustment is needed, especially with the newer shafts.

With all of the information available now, I started using BHE a few years ago on some shots, especially medium to firm speed shots at 2+ diamonds distance, for me the BHE is deadly in that range once you know the pivot point of your shaft, LD or not doesn't matter. If I'm shooting closer or slower then I have to feel it a bit more to account for curve or the change in distance. If I find myself missing shots like that in tourneys etc. then I set up a bunch of random similar shots and work out and commit to memory a system of what works for me on those types of shots - BHE, parallel, how much to adjust, etc., so I can dial it in for the future.
Scott
 
When do you need TWO TIPS of English ?
That's an inch off-center ? The ball is only 2.25 round.

If the distance is within 4 diamonds and medium stroke, I don't allow for squirt ( BHE ). I allow for throw.
 
I parallel shift for medium speed shots, and I guess how much I have to adjust the aim (using right english, aiming more to the right etc.). I use front hand english for slower shots. I'm assuming BHE is better but I'm too lazy to find the pivot point of my cue lol. :sorry:
 
K Knight said:
When I have to use heavy english (2 tips + straight right or left) to get shapes across table and my CB is more than 2' from the OB my accuracy obviously goes down a little. My question is do you shift, or pivot? Meaning do you aim to make the shot with no english, and then leave your bridge hand in that spot and pivot the cue for english? Or do you aim to make the shot, and then slide/shift your bridge hand over to get the desired amount of english and shoot straight through the CB?

Please specify whether or not you use LD shafts, as this would make a difference.

If you don't use LD shafts and you account for deflection in your head the question still applies, only instead of aiming to make the OB you aim to account for deflection and are aiming 1" or 1/2" to left/right depending on your cue and distance between OB and CB. The main part of the question of shift vs pivot still interests me.
Click to expand...

My take on english and deflection.

Shift or FHE for LD shafts
pivot or BHE for other maple shafts
 
JoeyInCali said:
When do you need TWO TIPS of English ?
That's an inch off-center ? The ball is only 2.25 round.

If the distance is within 4 diamonds and medium stroke, I don't allow for squirt ( BHE ). I allow for throw.
Click to expand...

Maybe not a full two tips, but you get the gist of what I'm saying, and say the ob is 1 diamond away from both rails and the cb is parallel almost to the long cushion and you have to cross the table to the 8 frozen on the back rail through traffic and the only way is slow rolling heavy running English. Every game, no, I mean how often do you force follow? But if you're on the hill and you need that shot how do you shoot it?

What I'm getting at is I "feel" a lot of shots without being able to explain the mechanics. I do a combination of back and front hand movements depending on a bunch of different things and it works pretty well for me, but I don't run out every rack so I figured this is one area I could reach out to everyone here for some insight.

Most of these responses were helpful/constructive, thank you.
 
I use an LD shaft. Like JoeyinCali says above, I pretty much worry about throw and ignore squirt. I find my aiming point for a center to center hit, then adjust my aiming point on the OB depending on the throw (right or left) I'll get from the english I put on the QB. The greater the amount of english, the more the aiming point shifts on the OB - always in the direction of the throw. For me, the issue is how much the aiming point shifts on the OB given the amount of english I want to employ (1/2 tip, 1 tip, 2 tips, etc.) But there is no set rule for an answer. Only way to know is by hitting tons and tons of balls and committing the results to memory (muscle and brain). As usual with this inexact art, it comes down to feel - such as intended stroke speed , table conditions, where I want ideally to leave the CB and the quality of the english imparted - as well as intuition and practice, practice, practice.

Best advice I find is to use english sparingly and try and use natural CB paths as much as possible.
 
I use a regular shaft.

I pivot from the no-english shot line. the type of pivot I do depends on the speed of the shot.

Here is my reasoning:

-Applied english has 2 factors that take the cue ball away from the center ball line. They are deflection and swerve.

-Deflection is pretty constant relative to how much english you apply. Swerve varies with distance, speed, and elevation.

-Deflection is always away from the center ball line and swerve is always in the opposite direction of the deflection.

-The further the distance, the softer you hit, and the more elevation you use, the greater the effect swerve will have.

Because of that, no one method can be a complete answer to applying english.

For shots with a lot of swerve, I use parallel english (or even just feel in the case of semi-masse shots). If you experiment a little, you will find that there is a speed (depending on distance) where parallel english just makes everything. Of course, this speed is different for every cue and table, but once you find that speed, kill shots and slow inside english shots that would normally be difficult are a joke.

For shots with medium swerve, I use FHE because it compensates slightly for english.

For shots with little to no swerve, I use a combination of FHE and BHE. I use both because it allows for more minute adjustments. On shots with max deflection and no swerve (where the adjustment required surpasses even just pure BHE), I first adjust with BHE, then adjust in the opposite direction with FHE, then adjust again with BHE. This generally brings me to a point where I am aiming out into open space, but huge deflection takes the cue ball on the right path.

Every cue, table, and shot are different, the best thing to do is experiment and figure out how you best compensate for english. BHE, FHE, and parallel are just guidelines to get you close to the compensated aim point. You have to fill in the blanks with feel.

One more thing, a useful fact I have found is that if you are having trouble shooting a jacked up shot with english, do the opposite of what you normally do to make balls go in the pocket: shoot it harder. This effectively decreases the swerve (especially if the ball is slightly airborne) and makes it so that you only have to compensate for deflection.
 
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I have absolutely no idea how I do it. I just do. It's all feel to me. I know my cue, and I know what it's going to do. Any adjustment I make is on a subconscious level. I think that if I thought about it and tried to figure out exactly what I'm doing, it may end up being detrimental to my game. "Paralysis by analysis".

I'd rather leave it to my subconscious.
 
I use BHE for all outside english shots and take my stance parallel to the shot for all inside english shots. Shots requiring inside english, especially with high english, are my least consistant shots. I'm going to have to pay attention to the replies here and hopefully learn a thing or two to try.
 
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