heeelllllpppppp!!!!!

[wigglybridge]

so, when we last saw wigglybridge, he'd just gotten a Predator QR2 w/ 314/2 shaft, and posted a short video of a 17 ball run, looking for advice on patterns. which many of you kindly provided; thanks!!!

he had also recently run a 29, missed a few shots, and run another 29, so he was kinda feeling okay about his progress.

now it's Four Months later, and he can hardly run a rack, has scrambled to run 20+ a Very few times in all those months, and is pretty weirded out about it all.

i've watched a Ton of videos since then, read more books, played as much as i could (only 3-4 hours once a week), and feel like for a change, brains aren't the problem. my patterns are certainly stronger.

i was wondering on my way home last night whether i should try backing off the ld shaft business. i'm kinda freaked about doing that, because it took me a fair bit of time to get used to it at all... but i Am missing shots that i just flat out shouldn't miss under any circumstances. last night i was at about 20 and had a 3' shot with a nice angle to draw with some outside english 2 rails to the break ball, and i didn't just miss it, i drove the f*&#ing thing into the rail about a diamond from the pocket. and no, it wasn't "choking" or rushing, or anything like that. i hit it just where i aimed. hello?

anyone got any advice on this? i Know it's the indian, not the arrow... but it seriously does seem that my shotmaking fell apart right about the time i got the new cue, and i Still find myself questioning my aim point on shots that used to be routine. maybe i scrambled myself by moving from a standard cue to a Lucasi Hybrid for 2 months, then the 314?

i'm going to get a lesson in a week or two with Matt Teatrault, who some of you know, and hope that will help, but not sure what i'm going to work on when i can see his first suggestion will be "learn to pocket a ball, dude".

stay the course? try my old cue? hit more balls? heeeeellllllpppp!

 

[stevekur1]

Bob,

I Feel your pain....i tried the LD route myself twice. once with the original 314 and then years later i had tried the OB1, both times with the same end result.... I am a firm believer that you cant teach an old dog new tricks, when it comes to aiming, patterns on the other hand you are never to old for that.

I would try to switch back to what you know, but dont jump back and forth. that more so can be real discouraging !!!

hope this helped
-Steve

 

[wigglybridge]

thanks for the advice, Steve -- i really value your thoughts.

a maybe-related question: you mentioned in another thread having been away from the game for 3 weeks; when you do that, how do you play coming back?

Dan White mentioned in a side msg some months back that i need to control the cue ball better; he's right, and i don't know how much of that problem is my limited practice time.

oh, plus, my experience is tilted by playing a bunch as a kid, then being away from it for 40 years, and then back 2 years ago. so i'm wondering if part of the aiming thing is just built-in knowledge as a kid that's hard-wired. i Thought i could get away with this, thinking that part of me was in the distant past, but maybe not...

 

[stevekur1]

These long lapses between sessions are killing me of course.

its funny though the last few times i played after layoffs, i would have a real decent run but then it fizzles and i play like a dog for a few hours and slowly it comes back....but only when i let it, by keeping an open mind and not letting it get the best of me.

the last time i played i did let it get the best of me, packed up my cue early and played some 3 Cushion....that was fun !

-Steve

 

[wigglybridge]

hmm. there's a thought; the room i go to, Ivory Billiards in Holyoke, MA, has a nice 3-cushion table... wouldn't exactly hurt my position play to do more of that.

the flip side of the thought that old dogs can't learn new tricks is people like Ralf and the rest of the German crew, most of whom shoot 314s. they must've managed the switch at some point, and surely they had more of a habit to overcome. but i guess if you practice many hours a day, it helps, eh?

 

[rikdee]

hmm. there's a thought; the room i go to, Ivory Billiards in Holyoke, MA, has a nice 3-cushion table... wouldn't exactly hurt my position play to do more of that.

Billiards is an excellent improvement tool for 14.1. However, I would strongly recommend playing the "small games" such as straight rail, red ball, or cushion carom. Fine cue-ball and object ball control, skills highly emphasized in the small games, will be a direct carryover to 14.1. Any time spent at this pursuit is time well spent; the general skill improvement potential is enormous.

 

[Not Dead Ted]

If you are missing shots that you do not use english on, you either have a mechanical or aiming issue. A low deflection cue should be more forgiving on these, so if you are botching these, the cue is no excuse.

If spinless shots are no problem, but you fail when sidespin is applied, the problem may be with the shaft and how you use it. LD shafts have the pivot point moved way back, and a combination of BHE and FHE is needed to maximize performance.

 

[wigglybridge]

thanks, Ted!

the problem is with english, and usually (not always) with longer shots hit with medium+ speed. although the whole thing has made me question my aim on All shots, which can't be a good thing.

is the pivot point increase the reason that i see so many Predator users (Darren, Ralf, Thomas Engert, Neils, etc) using a much longer bridge than i'm accustomed to, or is that just a carryover from 9-ball shooting style? i understand what BHE & FHE are, but to be honest, have never tried consciously examining how i do it; i just do it. so if you're saying that i need to look at that to use a ld shaft, well... that would explain some of this, too.

 

[Not Dead Ted]

thanks, Ted!

the problem is with english, and usually (not always) with longer shots hit with medium+ speed. although the whole thing has made me question my aim on All shots, which can't be a good thing.

is the pivot point increase the reason that i see so many Predator users (Darren, Ralf, Thomas Engert, Neils, etc) using a much longer bridge than i'm accustomed to, or is that just a carryover from 9-ball shooting style? i understand what BHE & FHE are, but to be honest, have never tried consciously examining how i do it; i just do it. so if you're saying that i need to look at that to use a ld shaft, well... that would explain some of this, too.

Dave Alciatore recommends FHE for longer shots, although I am not sure why. Joe Tucker has a video on his site where he talks a bit about combined FHE/BHE.

I calculated the vectors at one time. As I recall, if you are bridging in front of the pivot point (typically the case w/LD shaft) you need to shift in the direction of the english slightly and do the rest w/ BHE.

For example, english striking CB 1/4" to the right of center. Shift cue to the right about 1/8", then use BHE for the other 1/8".

I tossed my calculations, but it is something that can be figured out.

 

[wigglybridge]

Tuesday night i tried some the Lucasi Hybrid again, which i hadn't touched in 4-5 months. i learned 2 interesting things.

one, i can definitely see the deflection difference. if a normal cue is 100, and the 314 is 0 (yes, i Know it's not 0 deflection, just play along here, i'm making up a scale for comparison), then the Lucasi is at about 50.

two, i'd forgotten how much heavier the Lucasi _shaft_ is; the balance of the cue is drastically different, and this may completely outweigh the deflection business. because my stroke is noticeably steadier with more weight up front, especially in dodgy situations like cue ball frozen to the rail.

so it occurs to me that if deflection on long powershots with tons of english is a problem... well, that's not exactly where i should be playing good straight pool, is it? in fact, maybe the emergence of ld shafts at the same time 9-ball wiped 14.1 off the face of the earth isn't an accident.

that said, i clearly haven't been using a bridge length appropriate to the 314. and a longer bridge will... move more cue forward, and maybe address the balance.

so, i'm going to run some specific drills tomorrow night with both cues to determine their pivot points, and how they actually work for me for a variety of shots. then it seems likely i'll have a lesson with Matt Tetrault on Tues. and i should know a lot more by then.

again, many, many thanks to everyone who's commented, publically and privately; i really appreciate your help!

 

[dmgwalsh]

hmm. there's a thought; the room i go to, Ivory Billiards in Holyoke, MA, has a nice 3-cushion table... wouldn't exactly hurt my position play to do more of that.

Billiards is an excellent improvement tool for 14.1. However, I would strongly recommend playing the "small games" such as straight rail, red ball, or cushion carom. Fine cue-ball and object ball control, skills highly emphasized in the small games, will be a direct carryover to 14.1. Any time spent at this pursuit is time well spent; the general skill improvement potential is enormous.

Nice to hear from you again. Fine cue ball control is definitely my Achilles heel.

Are there other small ball games that help? I never heard of red ball, or cushion carom. Maybe I will figure out and enlist someone to play with me.

 

[rikdee]

Nice to hear from you again. Fine cue ball control is definitely my Achilles heel.

Are there other small ball games that help? I never heard of red ball, or cushion carom. Maybe I will figure out and enlist someone to play with me.

Likewise Mr. Walsh! Straight rail, red ball, or cushion carom are more than enough carom variety for the intended purpose. Beyond, small games go into balkline variations but again, for our purpose, nothing further could be gained.

Red ball is simple carom billiards (straight rail) played with the proscription that the red ball always is contacted first. More demanding in skill and creative thinking.

Cushion carom (again, basically straight rail) requires the player's CB to contact a least one cushion before completing the billiard. The CB can contact ball-cushion-ball or cushion-ball-ball. The old billiard masters developed the 'rub nurse' to enable long runs given the cushion requirement - tricky dudes!

 

[Cameron Smith]

Games like snooker and one pocket are excellent at training your cue ball control.

Snooker helps build your ability to control the cueball with a variety of stun shots, also it keeps you on your toes as you can not play relaxed position if you ever want to consistently run more than 30. You also learn to control the various nudges on the reds which you will take with you 14.1.

I personally believe that every cue game has beneficial skills that carry over to each other.

 

[Ratta]

Games like snooker and one pocket are excellent at training your cue ball control.

Snooker helps build your ability to control the cueball with a variety of stun shots, also it keeps you on your toes as you can not play relaxed position if you ever want to consistently run more than 30. You also learn to control the various nudges on the reds which you will take with you 14.1.

I personally believe that every cue game has beneficial skills that carry over to each other.

Tap Tap Tap
:wave2:

 

[lfigueroa]

so, when we last saw wigglybridge, he'd just gotten a Predator QR2 w/ 314/2 shaft, and posted a short video of a 17 ball run, looking for advice on patterns. which many of you kindly provided; thanks!!!

he had also recently run a 29, missed a few shots, and run another 29, so he was kinda feeling okay about his progress.

now it's Four Months later, and he can hardly run a rack, has scrambled to run 20+ a Very few times in all those months, and is pretty weirded out about it all.

i've watched a Ton of videos since then, read more books, played as much as i could (only 3-4 hours once a week), and feel like for a change, brains aren't the problem. my patterns are certainly stronger.

i was wondering on my way home last night whether i should try backing off the ld shaft business. i'm kinda freaked about doing that, because it took me a fair bit of time to get used to it at all... but i Am missing shots that i just flat out shouldn't miss under any circumstances. last night i was at about 20 and had a 3' shot with a nice angle to draw with some outside english 2 rails to the break ball, and i didn't just miss it, i drove the f*&#ing thing into the rail about a diamond from the pocket. and no, it wasn't "choking" or rushing, or anything like that. i hit it just where i aimed. hello?

anyone got any advice on this? i Know it's the indian, not the arrow... but it seriously does seem that my shotmaking fell apart right about the time i got the new cue, and i Still find myself questioning my aim point on shots that used to be routine. maybe i scrambled myself by moving from a standard cue to a Lucasi Hybrid for 2 months, then the 314?

i'm going to get a lesson in a week or two with Matt Teatrault, who some of you know, and hope that will help, but not sure what i'm going to work on when i can see his first suggestion will be "learn to pocket a ball, dude".

stay the course? try my old cue? hit more balls? heeeeellllllpppp!

You need to play with the setup that gives you the most confidence.

We can talk all day about construction, glue, aging, tapering, deflection, and squirt. But at the end of the day it's what you like: the feel of the shaft, how it looks to you, the sound it makes, the feedback it gives you, and whether it makes (or you think it makes) the balls do what you want them to.

A word of caution for the more novice players: yes, you may think that a certain shaft, ferrule, taper, tip, shaft/butt combo gives you your besestest performance. But appreciating and evaluating performance -- when it comes to pool -- is an acquired taste that takes time to refine. It's something you come to appreciate as you learn the nuances and as you mature as a player. Not unlike the beginning wine quaffer who starts out thinking that white zin is God's gift to man, in due course you may come to discover their are more refined pleasures when it comes to the world of the grape. Same with pool cues and specifically shafts.

When they first came out in the 90's I was all over the 314s. I was, after all, a man of science. Not an individual hidebound by tradition and lore. I believed that there could be advances made when it came to many of the technologies we all can too easily become accustomed and devoted to. IOW, i was always willing to leap off a cliff in the name of science (anyone remember the lawn mower called the Fly-Mow

And so I eventually ended up owning three Predator shafts and played with them exclusively for several years. And then, one day for no good reason, I pulled out one of the 4.3 ounce ivory-ferruled shafts that came with the very nice Schon I was playing with at the time. A week later I sold all my 314s and have never looked back. To me, the 314 always felt like I was hitting the balls with a soggy noodle -- going off the cue ball, more than going through it. The Schon shaft felt, to me, like it was going through the ball. And the sound was different too, as was "the hit," feeling much more solid and wholesome to me.

Now, admittedly, I grew up playing with ivory-ferruled shafts. So maybe it's just what you're used to. Certainly there can be no disputing that there is something special about a 20 year-old shaft that has been carefully turned down by the cue maker every few years, as well as the question of what you really end up playing with when you throw out the taper, ferrule, feel, hit, deflection, and balance that the original cue maker intended.

So like I said: play with what you like and what gives you the most confidence. Once you're on the table not much else matters.

Lou Figueroa

 

[wigglybridge]

Lou, thanks you for languaging so well some of the things that have been going through my head, and backing them with much wider experience. it's very helpful.

last night, lydia went along with me to help out spotting balls to do some testing, and i've decided that i am giving up on the Predator and going back to the Lucasi. which admittedly is still a ld shaft, but not so extreme, and more importantly for me, as you say, it FEELS right. at least partly due to numbers much like yours: the Lucasi shaft is 4.2 oz, the Predator is 3.65. i really, Really, REALLY feel that difference up front, it makes me steadier.

we measured the pivot point of both cues using the technique in Dr. Dave's video. i was shocked at how much further back it was on Both cues than i thought. it was 2" further back on the 314/2, and at least the way we had it set up, measured 14" on the Lucasi and 16" on the 314. another thing tilting me towards the Lucasi, because i felt very queasy with a 16" bridge. i was kind of surprised at those numbers, because others have measured the 314/2 at ~12.5", but in any case, it was definitely longer than the Lucasi.

but as you say, the main thing is how does it feel, and there's no question in my mind i feel better shooting with more weight in the nose.

the good news is that while selling the Lucasi might be an uphill battle, selling a Predator Quiet Roller 2 with a 314/2 shaft should be more like fighting off the hordes with money in their fists...

 

[wigglybridge]

yeah, buddy!

we now consider this question answered: after 4 entire months where i hit 20 only maybe a handful of times, and got to 24 once, tonight with the Lucasi in hand i ran 26, missed a few, then 27. and several other 20's as well, so it was no fluke.

not much to brag about to you aces, but pretty good for me, and very encouraging.

also, the 2 longer runs didn't end with misses, but with position errors (one of which was really a bad end pattern choice, the other i just overran an easy shape and hooked myself).

my confidence in shot making and position play is back, now just gotta buckle down and do the work and play smart. maybe shoot some video next time around.

thanks again for all the hand holding!!!

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, thanks you for languaging so well some of the things that have been going through my head, and backing them with much wider experience. it's very helpful.

last night, lydia went along with me to help out spotting balls to do some testing, and i've decided that i am giving up on the Predator and going back to the Lucasi. which admittedly is still a ld shaft, but not so extreme, and more importantly for me, as you say, it FEELS right. at least partly due to numbers much like yours: the Lucasi shaft is 4.2 oz, the Predator is 3.65. i really, Really, REALLY feel that difference up front, it makes me steadier.

we measured the pivot point of both cues using the technique in Dr. Dave's video. i was shocked at how much further back it was on Both cues than i thought. it was 2" further back on the 314/2, and at least the way we had it set up, measured 14" on the Lucasi and 16" on the 314. another thing tilting me towards the Lucasi, because i felt very queasy with a 16" bridge. i was kind of surprised at those numbers, because others have measured the 314/2 at ~12.5", but in any case, it was definitely longer than the Lucasi.

but as you say, the main thing is how does it feel, and there's no question in my mind i feel better shooting with more weight in the nose.

the good news is that while selling the Lucasi might be an uphill battle, selling a Predator Quiet Roller 2 with a 314/2 shaft should be more like fighting off the hordes with money in their fists...

You be welcome, Mr Wiggly. Good luck with your experimentation and the sale.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Ratta]

Hi Wiggly^^

i really enjoy that you got out of your *hole of pain*
keep shooting,

lg
Ingo

 

[Nekdo]

It`s all about what you feel confident with. Personally I think predator is the worst of all LD shafts. Playing english when CB is on or very near the cushion is always a new adventure. You always learn something new with 314
I couldn`t play with it at all and I stopped playing english. It made my potting a bit better with "accidental" side spin when the cue was level or cb was away from the cushion.
enjoy your old/new lucasi and have fun playing:thumbup: