Help with info on Biagio cue? Made by Joss possibly?

[justinb386]

I have heard in the past that Biagio cues were made by many different cue makers in the past (mostly from China, but some from Joss cues, if my memory is correct).

I am curious about opinions on where this cue was made?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Biagio-Pool-Cue-/272254205878?hash=item3f639d7fb6:g:4LMAAOSw9N1VgrO8

The only reason that I think it may be American made, is because the forearm looks like quality birds eye maple to me (forgive me if I am wrong, because I do not know).

The birds eye maple in that cue does look decent quality (in my opinion anyways).

I am a big lover of birds eye maple, and even in the famously poor quality that I hear about DP cues, it looks super nice to me (so I do not know if they have used nice looking birds eye maple in cheap Chinese made cues, or not).

Thanks for any opinions about that cue.

 

[Chopdoc]

You are looking at the wrong thing to determine if it is US made. Lots of Taiwan/China cues have a nice piece of wood. Besides, that isn't actually a very nicely figured piece. A few curls and a few eyes...but not much.

This one is not a Joss. It's a Taiwan cue. Wrong wrap, wrong joint, wrong butt cap, wrong bumper to be a Joss...among other things.

And it does not have the original shaft with it. Isn't worth anywhere near the asking price.







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[Chopdoc]

There is another Biagio listed (way overpriced as well) that is much more interesting. The joint materials and ferrule are what calls my attention. A very cool cue. But it does not have points, and everybody knows you are looking for points. :wink:

What is funny is that people call them "high end" and say they were made in England.

There is a lot of wrong info out there. Google makes people dumber if they don't know how to tell good info from bad. :grin:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Two...039017?hash=item4d40f152e9:g:0i4AAOSwh-1W5Zx3

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[woodyosborne]

I believe if a cue was made by joss for biagio, JOSS is prominently shown on the butt of cue. I think the ebay cues are way overpriced, also.

 

[pt109]

The first time I saw a Biagio cue was in a BCE store (Billiard Cues of England).
BCE had an Adam/Helmstetter connection....lotta snooker cues.

So I've always suspected that Biagio came from Adam.

 

[Chopdoc]

I believe if a cue was made by joss for biagio, JOSS is prominently shown on the butt of cue. I think the ebay cues are way overpriced, also.

Every one that I have seen made by Joss for Biagio was marked Joss.


Same with the ones Joss made for Brunswick.


It seems a lot of people find out about the Joss connection and try to use it to boost the value of a China made cue by suggesting their cue for sale might be a Joss. I see it commonly. Perhaps it is an innocent error, but sometimes I think not.

The one caveat is that a refinish might remove such markings, so it never hurts to check it out if the cue has Joss features.


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[Chopdoc]

The first time I saw a Biagio cue was in a BCE store (Billiard Cues of England).
BCE had an Adam/Helmstetter connection....lotta snooker cues.

So I've always suspected that Biagio came from Adam.

The roots of Biagio as a brand are a little hard to pin down. There were at least three sources of the cues: Kao-Kao, Joss, and Adam (I think).


I have researched the trademarks but would have to dig into some old files to see what I found.


There was a connection in England and some have said they were made there but I can find no evidence any of them were ever made in the UK.



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[Chopdoc]

Example of some of the info out there:

http://trade.mar.cx/US73692947


Edit: I just found documents on my PC from 1988, and original pictures of the logo as submitted for trademark. I even have pictures of the envelope it was mailed in.


I can't find anything earlier than 1988 though. Might be more on my other drive.

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[justinb386]

Every one that I have seen made by Joss for Biagio was marked Joss.


Same with the ones Joss made for Brunswick.


It seems a lot of people find out about the Joss connection and try to use it to boost the value of a China made cue by suggesting their cue for sale might be a Joss. I see it commonly. Perhaps it is an innocent error, but sometimes I think not.

The one caveat is that a refinish might remove such markings, so it never hurts to check it out if the cue has Joss features.


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The cues that Joss made for Brunswick were not marked Joss. Here is one that I had (and I have had many of the Joss made Brunswick cues over the years, and none of them were marked Joss on any part of the cue).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhauvDnqz18

All of the Joss cues (that I have ever seen) that were made for Brunswick had "Brunswick Billiards" marked in the butt cap.

 

[Chopdoc]

The cues that Joss made for Brunswick were not marked Joss. Here is one that I had (and I have had many of the Joss made Brunswick cues over the years, and none of them were marked Joss on any part of the cue).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhauvDnqz18

All of the Joss cues (that I have ever seen) that were made for Brunswick had "Brunswick Billiards" marked in the butt cap.

You should spend some time and keep looking at cues. Closer. More carefully. Here is a link to a post here on AZB that might surprise you. And it was not hard to find. You will note that under the Brunswick logo it says "by Joss USA" in tiny print. Since you have never seen one I am guessing it will surprise you.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5484411&postcount=8

If you look closer at your blurry video your own cue says Joss under the Brunswick logo. :wink:



Are you trying to convince anybody (yourself?) that the Biagio you asked about might be a Joss? I will tell you for certain I am not guessing. It is not a Joss.

You say you have had "many" of the Joss made Brunswick cues over the years. I'll call you on that. Flat out I don't believe you. In fact judging from your posts I don't think you have had "many" of any cue. If you had "many" of any sort of Joss you would know that Biagio is not a Joss.


Define "many" for us please. 25? 50? 100?



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[justinb386]

You should spend some time and keep looking at cues. Closer. More carefully. Here is a link to a post here on AZB that might surprise you. And it was not hard to find. You will note that under the Brunswick logo it says "by Joss USA" in tiny print. Since you have never seen one I am guessing it will surprise you.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5484411&postcount=8

If you look closer at your blurry video your own cue says Joss under the Brunswick logo. :wink:



Are you trying to convince anybody (yourself?) that the Biagio you asked about might be a Joss? I will tell you for certain I am not guessing. It is not a Joss.

You say you have had "many" of the Joss made Brunswick cues over the years. I'll call you on that. Flat out I don't believe you. In fact judging from your posts I don't think you have had "many" of any cue. If you had "many" of any sort of Joss you would know that Biagio is not a Joss.


Define "many" for us please. 25? 50? 100?



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There really is no need to get so nasty in your reply. Are you trying to make me feel bad?

I went through a lot of mid range production cues (mostly Joss made, because Joss was my favorite brand of cue as a kid) back in the mid to late 90's and early 2000's (when I played the most pool that I ever played), so maybe you would be surprised by how many cues I have had (I never could hold on to any cue I had for long, lol).

I am sorry, I should not have said many, but I have had several over the years (maybe 3 or 4).

I honestly believe that I would have noticed Joss in small lettering (under the Brunswick logo). Are you certain that all of the Joss made Brunswick cues were marked Joss under the logo like that?

I just found one that appears to just say USA under the logo.

http://www.panjo.com/buy/brunswick-magnum-series-pool-cue-mg-5-made-by-joss-291886?sid=29802198

 

[badntx]

I have a biagio cue and the only place its says "Biagio by Joss" is on the black collars under the stainless steel joint in gold letters . The shaft says " Joss" in gold letters on black collars. Its has 4 points and is a very well made cue . I have owned it since 1990.

 

[Chopdoc]

Not all say Joss. But as you see the one you linked is marked USA.

Yours may have said USA or Joss, it's hard to see. But we can see it was marked under the Brunswick logo.


On the Joss web site they show some that say neither, but they are likely not pictures of cues released for sale, they were probably the prototypes.

Generally speaking Joss has been pretty consistent in marking cues since very early. There are a few examples of cues that were not marked. We recently saw two Joss Rempe cues in the gallery that were not marked Joss. Some of the Brunswick cues and Biagio cues were apparently not marked Joss.

I suspect that some early Falcon cues have been confused with Joss cues and have wondered if some of the cues made in the USA that were not marked Joss might have been made by Falcon. Brunswick cues were made by Joss, Falcon, and in Asia.

I sometimes wonder if the Joss looking Biagio cues that are not marked Joss might have been made by Falcon. But again, the one we are talking about here is not Joss. It isn't Falcon either. It's Asian.

Nasty? I didn't think I was being nasty, nor do I wish you to feel bad. I just have a very sensitive BS meter and am not afraid to call BS when I see it. I am very well aware that most Joss cues are marked, and you said that you have had and seen many and that NONE were marked. Had to call you on that one. :wink:



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[TATE]

I have heard in the past that Biagio cues were made by many different cue makers in the past (mostly from China, but some from Joss cues, if my memory is correct).

I am curious about opinions on where this cue was made?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Biagio-Pool-Cue-/272254205878?hash=item3f639d7fb6:g:4LMAAOSw9N1VgrO8

The only reason that I think it may be American made, is because the forearm looks like quality birds eye maple to me (forgive me if I am wrong, because I do not know).

The birds eye maple in that cue does look decent quality (in my opinion anyways).

I am a big lover of birds eye maple, and even in the famously poor quality that I hear about DP cues, it looks super nice to me (so I do not know if they have used nice looking birds eye maple in cheap Chinese made cues, or not).

Thanks for any opinions about that cue.

The Biagio cues were a trademarked brand outsourced by the billiard distributor, Crystal Leisure of Colorado. Starting in the late 1980's, they were made by a few manfufacturers under contract. This particular cue was possibly outsourced to Falcon based on the blank. Joss cues would have had rounded (inlaid) points at that time. FYI The maple probably did come from Eastern North America, where it's native.

 

[justinb386]

Not all say Joss. But as you see the one you linked is marked USA.

Yours may have said USA or Joss, it's hard to see. But we can see it was marked under the Brunswick logo.


On the Joss web site they show some that say neither, but they are likely not pictures of cues released for sale, they were probably the prototypes.

Generally speaking Joss has been pretty consistent in marking cues since very early. There are a few examples of cues that were not marked. We recently saw two Joss Rempe cues in the gallery that were not marked Joss. Some of the Brunswick cues and Biagio cues were apparently not marked Joss.

I suspect that some early Falcon cues have been confused with Joss cues and have wondered if some of the cues made in the USA that were not marked Joss might have been made by Falcon. Brunswick cues were made by Joss, Falcon, and in Asia.

I sometimes wonder if the Joss looking Biagio cues that are not marked Joss might have been made by Falcon. But again, the one we are talking about here is not Joss. It isn't Falcon either. It's Asian.

Nasty? I didn't think I was being nasty, nor do I wish you to feel bad. I just have a very sensitive BS meter and am not afraid to call BS when I see it. I am very well aware that most Joss cues are marked, and you said that you have had and seen many and that NONE were marked. Had to call you on that one. :wink:



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The thing is that I am not the type of person to post anything that I think is BS (in my mind anyways). I do think you were kind of being nasty at the end of that last post, but that is just my sensitive way of thinking. People on this forum are either very bluntly honest in their replies, or just like to be jokesters. I am just way too sensitive for this place.

By the way, I also had a Derby cue (that was a line that Buddy Hall had Joss made for him), and it did not say Joss anywhere on any of the Derby line of cues (that Joss made). So, I just assumed that maybe there were many other cues out there that Joss has made in the past (with different brand names on them). The Derby cues were very nice, but I still questioned (on here) whether they were really made by Joss or not (because Joss was not marked anywhere on the cues). Everyone on here really gave me hell for questioning that too (because I mistakenly put the question in a sellers for sale thread). I was pretty new at the time, and did not know the rules of the forum.

 

[pt109]

The cues that Joss made for Brunswick were not marked Joss. Here is one that I had (and I have had many of the Joss made Brunswick cues over the years, and none of them were marked Joss on any part of the cue).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhauvDnqz18

All of the Joss cues (that I have ever seen) that were made for Brunswick had "Brunswick Billiards" marked in the butt cap.

I think the Brunswick cues you had were made by Falcon....I've had both.
Unmarked, some models of Brunswick and Falcon are hard to tell apart...Dan Janes had a lot to do with setting up Falcon...the parts intermix.

Dufferin of Canada also made a lot of Brunswick cues...I still have a couple.

I see a Brunswick by Falcon every week...I sold it to a friend.

 

[Chopdoc]

The Biagio cues were a trademarked brand outsourced by the billiard distributor, Crystal Leisure of Colorado. Starting in the late 1980's, they were made by a few manfufacturers under contract. This particular cue was possibly outsourced to Falcon based on the blank. Joss cues would have had rounded (inlaid) points at that time. FYI The maple probably did come from Eastern North America, where it's native.

I am pretty sure that's not one made by Falcon, at least not domestically.

Is it possible that Falcon filled the contract, at least in part, with imports?




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[poolguy4u]

I have heard in the past that Biagio cues were made by many different cue makers in the past (mostly from China, but some from Joss cues, if my memory is correct).

I am curious about opinions on where this cue was made?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Biagio-Pool-Cue-/272254205878?hash=item3f639d7fb6:g:4LMAAOSw9N1VgrO8

The only reason that I think it may be American made, is because the forearm looks like quality birds eye maple to me (forgive me if I am wrong, because I do not know).

The birds eye maple in that cue does look decent quality (in my opinion anyways).

I am a big lover of birds eye maple, and even in the famously poor quality that I hear about DP cues, it looks super nice to me (so I do not know if they have used nice looking birds eye maple in cheap Chinese made cues, or not).

Thanks for any opinions about that cue.

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Made in England.




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[Chopdoc]

The thing is that I am not the type of person to post anything that I think is BS (in my mind anyways). I do think you were kind of being nasty at the end of that last post, but that is just my sensitive way of thinking. People on this forum are either very bluntly honest in their replies, or just like to be jokesters.

Fair enough. I really didn't mean to be nasty. I usually use smilies etc. When I look back I only gave you one wink.

I was really being playful as much as anything.

But I was calling BS.

Hard to see somebody's tone of voice and demeanor in a post.

The topic at hand is a very interesting one for me as I am a cue ID nut and a cue industry history buff.

I am always glad to see these things discussed.


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[TATE]

I am pretty sure that's not one made by Falcon, at least not domestically.

Is it possible that Falcon filled the contract, at least in part, with imports?




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Yes, KPS Taiwan became Falcon (Ernie Chen was founder). These same blanks were also used by Palmer in the 1980's.