HH 3-line system (HOLE?)

BRKNRUN

BRKNRUN

Showin some A$$
Silver Member
3 "AIMS" of the HH 3-line system.

Center CB to 1/4 OB
Center CB to Edge OB
1/4 CB to Edge OB


enzo said:
the above 3 aim points DO NOT cover all shots on a pool table. there are many cases where the shot will be in between 2 of the above aims. many of you already know this of course.

this makes sense in light of the following experiment: if you set up a certain shot and aim the cb at 1/2 coverage, shoot, then mark the table where the ball hits the rail (or the pocket, just mark where it hits). subsequently, set up the same exact shot, aim at 1/4 coverage, shoot, then mark the table where that ball hits the rail (or pocket). the space inbetween the two marks roughly represents the angles that this system doesn't account for. are the proponents of this system saying that these angles never come up on a pool table?
Click to expand...


Enzo has come up with a valid experiment that I would like to see some discussion and possible explanations.

I use this system, so this in no way is meant to be a "bash" on the entire system. I have my own "theory" of how shots hit in the "hole" area, but its just a theory and is also based on the way I (specifically) apply the system...

Anyone who uses, has used, or at least has studied the system or just thinks they have a valid theory is welcome to reply..

I would hope this does not turn into a "bash" on the entire system, as that is NOT what it is intended to do. But (especailly since I use the system) would like to see some reasoning behind what happens in the "hole".

I know some specific posters that I would "expect" to see some answers from since they use know and have studied the HH systems.
 
pooltchr said:
Aren't your first and third options virtually the same?
Click to expand...

No

CENTER CB to 1/4 OB is only around a 15 degree cut.
CENTER CB to Edge OB is around a 30 degree cut
1/4 CB to Edge of OB is around a 45 degree cut

(The way I apply the system, I don't pay attention to the "degree" of cut so those numbers may not be accurate as I don't remember what I was told they were)
 
You actually have five shots in this system, don't you? Straight in is a fourth, and then a thin cut is the fifth.

Even though I suck, I'm quickly getting to the point of agreeing that there are no real aiming systems other than look and feel. You get down on a shot, you look at it, and you feel it.

The sole purpose of an aiming system - any aiming system - I am coming to believe for myself is simply this: to get you in the neighborhood. In other words, if you have a 35 degree cut and your alignment system lines you up for a 30 degree cut, you're in the neighborhood. Your feel then takes over and you make subtle adjustments - conscious or not - to get you to 35 degrees.

This would also explain why a lot of aiming systems tend to break down when you get really close to the object ball - your "neighborhood" is no longer close enough to make minor adjustments.

But that's just me. I won't knock anyone's aiming system at this point because I believe the purpose is just to get you close to the proper aim.
 
I think the best way to determine, or even develop, the best aiming method is to try it out on super tight pockets. That is on a table that just won't take a shot if it touches the rail first and will not go in if hit to less than 1/2 inch to the outer part of the pocket face.

Play all different difficult shots using distance - hard shots, soft shots, follow, draw, extreme left and right... Because these are all shots that should go in consistently and are needed for sound billiard skills.

Players say that they do not need to see the pocket when they shoot. This is correct because they have played enough that they know were the OB is in relation to the pocket. They still need a reference to the pocket no matter what or otherwise their mind will play tricks on them. The best I think is to see the ball to the part of the pocket you are playing and then lock in on the spot. Whether you are playing draw, follow or English, hard or soft,.. - you already know how to get the CB to where you want to by feel (developed through experience).

So a good aiming system is one that allows you to focus on where EXACTLY (not general area) to hit the OB and you can actually and mentally see it to the pocket. The rest is experience over time on how to get the CB to that exact spot no matter how you hit the CB. The CB is not an object rather it is you and your equipment, no need to look at it except to make sure you are hitting it were you expect to and that should only take moments.

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i'll make this simple. get hal houle's number.....call him.....do what he says, and see if it works for you.

quit asking everyone else to talk about it and debate it. call hal.....don't argue with him, just listen......he's not hiding, he's an open book and will tell you how to use his systems.

the answers are a phone call away......quit being lazy, call him, and find out if it works for you.

VAP
 
BRKNRUN said:
...
Anyone who uses, has used, or at least has studied the system or just thinks they have a valid theory is welcome to reply..
Click to expand...
I like Iacas' s explanation but what is yours? One thing is for sure, as Enzo pointed out, the geometry dictates in no uncertain terms that these offsets do not come close to covering all of the necessary cut angles.

Jim
 
vapoolplayer said:
i'll make this simple. get hal houle's number.....call him.....do what he says, and see if it works for you.

quit asking everyone else to talk about it and debate it. call hal.....don't argue with him, just listen......he's not hiding, he's an open book and will tell you how to use his systems.

the answers are a phone call away......quit being lazy, call him, and find out if it works for you.

VAP
Click to expand...


VAP is right... Hal explains and teaches these systems better than anyone else can. I've used and studied most of his systems, and teach a few of them... 3 lines is the first thing he teaches you, but if you'll stick with him, and continue the phone calls, you'll learn aiming systems that will just blow you away. Personally, I use one that I think is the nuts. It's also a Hal System. Do I use them all the time? Hell no. After a few million shots, most shots are burned in and become "intuitive", but there are some shots that come up that NOBODY readily recognizes, so why not have a valid system in place for those time so you can confidently make a table length 80 degree cut shot??? Anyone in the Arkansas or Oklahoma area that wants to learn these, let me know. Hal plans to be in my home for awhile sometime in April. He's a great gentleman and very pleasant, and if you're willing to come with an open mind and listen and learn, you're welcome to come to my home to meet him. I'll let you know up front, that I consider Hal my friend, and if you come here to confront him or argue with him, bad move, but if you want to learn, you're welcome here... no charge, bring your own beer... and if you happen to pick up a case of Guiness for Cane, no problem... I have an extra fridge in the shop! :)

Later,
Bob
 
Thanks For Nothing!!!

vapoolplayer said:
i'll make this simple. get hal houle's number.....call him.....do what he says, and see if it works for you.

quit asking everyone else to talk about it and debate it. call hal.....don't argue with him, just listen......he's not hiding, he's an open book and will tell you how to use his systems.

the answers are a phone call away......quit being lazy, call him, and find out if it works for you.

VAP
Click to expand...

Cmon VAP...Did you miss this part???

I would hope this does not turn into a "bash" on the entire system, as that is NOT what it is intended to do. But (especailly since I use the system) would like to see some reasoning behind what happens in the "hole".

I have called HH. As a matter of fact, Hal has called me from time to time out of the blue...One time a 5am in the morning...I spoke with him for about 30 minutes. (I have also called DM)...and.... I USE the 3-line system...

I don't currently have an answer to the "hole". Last time I spoke with Hal, he was going to be "on the move". He is supposed to call me when he comes through AZ. Hopefully he does as I would like nothing more than to get the explanation straight from the Halses mouth....

I also know that he has many other systems...I incorporate one of them for very thin cuts...The other systems however don't "fit" me, and if you have spoken with Hal (like I have) you will know that once you find one that fits, that is the one you shoud stick with.....as Hal has told me he does not "recommend" jumping from system to system...I also feel that the other systems he teaches "convert" back to one of the 3-line "aims" once you have made all the pivots, and or adjustemnts.

MEANWHILE, since I don't have "instant" access to Hal, I "thought" I would post a "valid" question about the system, that one of you would be so kind as to lend some "constructive" answer or at least "theory" that might generate some real pool discussion.

Is it that "taboo" to ask a HH system question on this board????? Or is this board only for posting subliminal advertisement for Cue and Case and Gadget makers....(Oh look at the great job so and so did on my case)...Grreeaatt....what kind of discount did you get for the free "spam"

Also, don't ever call me lazy...You have no idea who I am other that from posts on this board. You have no clue what I have or have not done...

I am so tired of the BS on this board...I post ONE! (VALID) and thought provoking question on this board about a system that is getting more and more popular on a daily basis (that I happen to use and defend 100% of the time) and I get called lazy......well you can just "suck my stick"

Thanks for nothing VAP...
 
Thanks For Nothing!!!

vapoolplayer said:
i'll make this simple. get hal houle's number.....call him.....do what he says, and see if it works for you.

quit asking everyone else to talk about it and debate it. call hal.....don't argue with him, just listen......he's not hiding, he's an open book and will tell you how to use his systems.

the answers are a phone call away......quit being lazy, call him, and find out if it works for you.

VAP
Click to expand...

Cmon VAP...Did you miss this part???

I would hope this does not turn into a "bash" on the entire system, as that is NOT what it is intended to do. But (especailly since I use the system) would like to see some reasoning behind what happens in the "hole".

I have called HH. As a matter of fact, Hal has called me from time to time out of the blue...One time a 5am in the morning...I spoke with him for about 30 minutes. (I have also called DM)...and.... I USE the 3-line system...

I don't currently have an answer to the "hole". Last time I spoke with Hal, he was going to be "on the move". He is supposed to call me when he comes through AZ. Hopefully he does as I would like nothing more than to get the explanation straight from the Halses mouth....

I also know that he has many other systems...I incorporate one of them for very thin cuts...The other systems however don't "fit" me, and if you have spoken with Hal (like I have) you will know that once you find one that fits, that is the one you shoud stick with.....as Hal has told me he does not "recommend" jumping from system to system...I also feel that the other systems he teaches "convert" back to one of the 3-line "aims" once you have made all the pivots, and or adjustemnts.

MEANWHILE, since I don't have "instant" access to Hal, I "thought" I would post a "valid" question about the system, that one of you would be so kind as to lend some "constructive" answer or at least "theory" that might generate some real pool discussion.

Is it that "taboo" to ask a HH system question on this board????? Or is this board only for posting subliminal advertisement for Cue and Case and Gadget makers....(Oh look at the great job so and so did on my case)...Grreeaatt....what kind of discount did you get for the free "spam"

Also, don't ever call me lazy...You have no idea who I am other that from posts on this board. You have no clue what I have or have not done...

I am so tired of the BS on this board...I post ONE! (VALID) and thought provoking question on this board about a system that is getting more and more popular on a daily basis (that I happen to use and defend 100% of the time) and I get called lazy......well you can just "suck my stick"

Thanks for nothing VAP...
 
Cane said:
VAP is right... Hal explains and teaches these systems better than anyone else can. I've used and studied most of his systems, and teach a few of them... 3 lines is the first thing he teaches you, but if you'll stick with him, and continue the phone calls, you'll learn aiming systems that will just blow you away. Personally, I use one that I think is the nuts. It's also a Hal System. Do I use them all the time? Hell no. After a few million shots, most shots are burned in and become "intuitive", but there are some shots that come up that NOBODY readily recognizes, so why not have a valid system in place for those time so you can confidently make a table length 80 degree cut shot??? Anyone in the Arkansas or Oklahoma area that wants to learn these, let me know. Hal plans to be in my home for awhile sometime in April. He's a great gentleman and very pleasant, and if you're willing to come with an open mind and listen and learn, you're welcome to come to my home to meet him. I'll let you know up front, that I consider Hal my friend, and if you come here to confront him or argue with him, bad move, but if you want to learn, you're welcome here... no charge, bring your own beer... and if you happen to pick up a case of Guiness for Cane, no problem... I have an extra fridge in the shop! :)

Later,
Bob
Click to expand...

I am guessing you use the "shis-kebob" system he teaches...

Yes, that system is very effective. I use it for very thin cuts. However, It does not fit me for more "normal" angle shots as I dont like having to start "off center" of the CB for aiming....That is one of the more appealing things (to me about the 3-line system) It allows me to remain "Center CB" for aiming except for the 1/4 CB aim wich I have adapted a "process" that allow me to stay center CB for that shot as well.

I know that the 3-line system is the "entry level" system (so to speak), but it works so well for me that I don't feel the need to change systems at this point....

I guarantee that I will ask Hal about the "hole" next time a speak with him. In the meantime, I feel it is a very valid question that until just recently I did not "realize" as I had not done the type of "test" described in the origonal post of this thread.

As much as I like the system and use the system, I will not "hide" a weakness of the system if there is one. I WILL bring it up in hopes that there is a valid explination that I may not have thought of at this point.....I really don't think that the question that has been brought up will crash the stock market....:)
 
Jal said:
I like Iacas' s explanation but what is yours? One thing is for sure, as Enzo pointed out, the geometry dictates in no uncertain terms that these offsets do not come close to covering all of the necessary cut angles.

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim,

Here is some straight cut and past "theory" that I have currently. The clips in blue are from and email discussion that I had regarding this "hole"....(space distance between any two aim points)

NOTE: I have not had a chance to call Hal and ask him directly. I could be "DEAD WRONG" on my thought process....But here is what I think based on the way I "apply" the system.

(CLIP)
When I start from the "actual contact point" as a base and convert to the "aims" I must be "subconciously" adjusting to a "heavy" edge or "light" edge or a "heavy" 1/4 or "light" 1/4 in order to make the ball hit the intended pocket or spot on the rail.

Probably also explains why before I used the "conversion process" I would miss random shots. I thought that I was choosing the wrong "aim point".

I still tend to do that if I get "lazy" and I don't take the time to start from the contact point, I will randomly overcut or under cut a little, but If I take the time to start from the contact point on the OB and convert to the "aim" I make the ball.

So I guess the question is are there really only 4-aims or or there 12 aims or infinity??? Heck I don't know anymore....LOL

What I "think" now is that perhaps there are 4 'base" aims and the rest is subconcious adjustment...or "feel" if you will.

I would be curious to see what "valid" responses came from a thread about the "hole". My hunch is that it will get directed to one of the other 7+ systems that Hal Houle teaches...The 3-line system is the entry level system. He has others that some say are even more effective. One is the "shis-kebob" system that actually is the (4th aim) of the 3-aim system that I use. He has a whole system based on what I term as a reverse pivot, where you line up with varying amounts of tip off set from center ball to the edge of the OB and then pivot your cue back to center. It was explained to me once, but I could never grasp a solid understanding of it. Probably because I did not like the system based on the fact that I had to line my cue up "off center" of the CB.

He also has a "small ball" type system, and a bunch of others, but from what I have seen of all systems that they all convert down to the "actual contact point" and one of the 4 aims I use...(or I should say a thick and thin side to those edges)

I would try and find Hal Houles number listed in one of the threads. If I come accross his number I will PM it to you...Give him a call, if anything he is a very interesting guy to talk to and his systems open up the thiniking process to better aiming...(END CLIP) [/COLOR]

NOTE: Below is the "conversion method" I use to determing the "aim". The reason I do this below, is I can't alway tell what degree cut I am looking at. I have also told Hal about this "conversion method" and he encouraged my usage of it to determin the "aim"

(CLIP)
THE CONVERSION PROCESS
This is the “process” that I used when I first started learning this system. The reason I did this is because like you and many others I did not “trust” that this system worked. I came up with this process on my own, but I do believe it is a very effective way of “confirming” the aims. I also did this for a while so that I knew which “aim” to use. Some times moving the balls a very short distance can change you from one aim to another. It depends greatly on the distance between balls, pocket and angle.

What I do is put an OB and CB on the table set up any shot you want. At first keep the balls within a cue length from each other because you will be using your cue in this “confirmation” process.

Stand behind the OB in line with the intended pocket. Place your cue tip on the bed of the table where the center of the ghost ball would be. The way I determine this is by looking at the reflection of the tip in the OB it should be about ½ way up the OB in the dead center…….The reflection of the tip should be on the “actual needed contact point” to make the OB. (furthest point from the pocket) Now, leaving your tip in place swing the but end of your cue around until it is directly over the center of you CB. (Notice where your cue tip is pointed) The tip will be pointed to one of three places for different angles. For shallow angles it will point toward the ¼ point on the OB, as the angle sharpens it will point toward the edge of the OB, and as the angle gets even steeper it will point off the OB (about ¼ ball) and for the thinnest cuts it will point at ½ off the OB. (END CLIP) [/COLOR]

If this post does not make sense and you want clarification, please contact me via PM.

I will not continue this thread as apparantly the forum cops have determined that it I am not allowed to post anything related to the HH system that does anything other than verify its complete and total accuracy....

and.....I am too Lazy!!!!!!
 
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BRKNRUN said:
I am guessing you use the "shis-kebob" system he teaches...
Click to expand...

BRKNRUN, Yep, it's Shishkebob. For me, it's comfortable for all angles, but what you said is correct... when you find a system that works for you, stick with it and don't jump from system to system.

Forgive me if I don't describe shishkebob on here... I just cannot word it well. Hal does a great job of explaining it over the phone, so give him a call if you want to use it. Anyone interested, PM me and I'll give you his phone number.

Later,
Bob
 
Colin Colenso said:
I believe it is similar to what is described and diagrammed here:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=24148
Click to expand...

Colin, Similar concept but technically, completely dissimilar. With Shishkebob, you always align to the edge of the OB... never to a contact point. Hard to explain, easy to demonstrate. Like I said before, Hal explains it better than anyone else. My explanations of it tend to cloud up even the clearest of waters! :)
 
normally, i'd post a response to what you said, but i'm not gonna argue with anyone on here anymore......

if 3 lines doesn't work for you, or doesn't make sense......either learn it again from hal, or use another system.

VAP
 
vapoolplayer said:
normally, i'd post a response to what you said, but i'm not gonna argue with anyone on here anymore......

if 3 lines doesn't work for you, or doesn't make sense......either learn it again from hal, or use another system.

VAP
Click to expand...

Apparantly your not actually going to "read" anyones post on here anymore either....

I never said the system does not work for me....how many times do I need to say I use the system.....

What is your issue??? Did Shorty infect you with something???

If this thread does not make sense to you....Read another thread.
 
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