Hidden crack in Predator ferrule, w/pic

Newton

Newton

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I did a tip change on a friends Pred Z2 shaft today. After installing the tip I did my usual cleanup of the ferrule with 1200 sandpaper. Guess what popped out .... Two cracks like this and a really small one as well.

I know Predator had a big buzz with their ferrules some time back where they seemed to fell off due to poor gluing. I have recommended my friend to ask to have this fixed. If he don't get it done from the correct sources I would help him out. Without expenses, simply because this is something which should not happen and I know from others that this has not always been taken care of on warranty!

So the question is then, have any one discovered this ? It must have been some kind of internal pressure from the glue which has made the cracks from the inside. It was not possible to see when I received the shaft, but finishing off with the 1200 paper made them visible.

I would send the shaft back to him tomorrow and let him have a go on it. If the glue is inside the cracks and holding the ferrule together, I guess it could be played with until he get a new one?

By the way, is this a "custom" ferrule material or is it a stock one which I can buy from Atlas ?

Some views on this would be highly appreciated.

N
 

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Hi Newton,
Those may not be cracks. You need to aggressively sand the marks with 320/400 grit for a quick instant to see if any of the line is going away. If it's going away, it can't be a crack. Of course, get the clients permission before you do this but only if he wants it done.

What causes me to believe these aren't cracks is the one just below the tip. These are capped ferrules and the cap is .200" thick on a 'Z'. Nice tip install; I'm guessing Moori?

Anyway, I suggested 320/400 grit because you'd have to polish it anyway.
400, 600, 1,000, 1,500 & 2,000. Micro-Mesh cloth backed sheets are the nuts on Gen.1 ferrules.

I do Predator ferrules thru Seybert's. If I can help further, just ask.
 
Be Careful

If it is less than 12.75 mm, they won't cover it with a warranty.
Purd
That is what they told me.
 
Purdman said:
If it is less than 12.75 mm, they won't cover it with a warranty.
Purd
That is what they told me.
Click to expand...
Build it up with nail polish.
Joey~Went to a machining class , saw someone do that and still got an F for not holding tolerance.It wun't me~
 
Purdman said:
If it is less than 12.75 mm, they won't cover it with a warranty.
Purd
That is what they told me.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that they would void the guarantee if the shaft was turned smaller than 12.25.
I could be wrong, of coarse, but I don't think so.

Dick
 
Newton said:
I did a tip change on a friends Pred Z2 shaft today. After installing the tip I did my usual cleanup of the ferrule with 1200 sandpaper. Guess what popped out .... Two cracks like this and a really small one as well.

I know Predator had a big buzz with their ferrules some time back where they seemed to fell off due to poor gluing. I have recommended my friend to ask to have this fixed. If he don't get it done from the correct sources I would help him out. Without expenses, simply because this is something which should not happen and I know from others that this has not always been taken care of on warranty!

So the question is then, have any one discovered this ? It must have been some kind of internal pressure from the glue which has made the cracks from the inside. It was not possible to see when I received the shaft, but finishing off with the 1200 paper made them visible.

I would send the shaft back to him tomorrow and let him have a go on it. If the glue is inside the cracks and holding the ferrule together, I guess it could be played with until he get a new one?

By the way, is this a "custom" ferrule material or is it a stock one which I can buy from Atlas ?

Some views on this would be highly appreciated.

N
Click to expand...


I use ABS plastic stock from Prather's.... and Atlas carries it I'm sure !!!! I have been repairing pred. 314 shafts for 7+ yrs. and have successfully replaced numerous ferrules with ABS and it plays exactly the same in all respects....

As long as you machine the ABS stock to the tenon's specs and bottom out the capped ferrule to the top of the tenon, you will see and feel zero difference in asthetics and playability....

The procedure is quite simple and the ABS has excellent machining characteristics, and you'll be very pleased with the outcome !

If you have any technical questions regarding this matter please call anytime ! 321-631-1827


Sincerely, Eddie Wheat (East Coast Cue Repair)
 
KJ Cues said:
Hi Newton,
Those may not be cracks. You need to aggressively sand the marks with 320/400 grit for a quick instant to see if any of the line is going away. If it's going away, it can't be a crack. Of course, get the clients permission before you do this but only if he wants it done.

What causes me to believe these aren't cracks is the one just below the tip. These are capped ferrules and the cap is .200" thick on a 'Z'. Nice tip install; I'm guessing Moori?

Anyway, I suggested 320/400 grit because you'd have to polish it anyway.
400, 600, 1,000, 1,500 & 2,000. Micro-Mesh cloth backed sheets are the nuts on Gen.1 ferrules.

I do Predator ferrules thru Seybert's. If I can help further, just ask.
Click to expand...

Thanks' for the help. I talked to the owner last night and he told me that the ferrule had actually fallen off for him, just after a couple of weeks!!! He had done a "ferrule" job him self by gluing the ferrule back again.

I informed him about the problems which may occur if he had used wrong glue and possibly had not a glue relief hole. I was not aware of this and doing the face off I did not closely inspect for any hole, so I'm not sure how this would affect the warranty. I rarely sand with any "heavier" papers in the 400 range since this takes to much off, so the tip/ferrule is still 11.75mm as it should be.

However, I guess if the owner has used wrong glue, not cleaned the glue relief hole (if there is one) and installed it, the glue might have expanded and caused internal pressure to make it crack?

I would contact him today and let him know about this thread and let him decide what to do. I have no problem sanding it heavy to see if it disappears, the only problem I see with this is that the crack may become more noticeable and more fragile I guess.

The small black dot under the tip is just a small mark my tool made (which I'm not planing to hide by sanding) and is not related to any fractural in the ferrule.

The tip is a Medium Kamui :)

Thanks' every one. I would let you know what the owner decides and post a "update".

N
 
Last edited:
WheatCues said:
I use ABS plastic stock from Prather's.... and Atlas carries it I'm sure !!!! I have been repairing pred. 314 shafts for 7+ yrs. and have successfully replaced numerous ferrules with ABS and it plays exactly the same in all respects....

As long as you machine the ABS stock to the tenon's specs and bottom out the capped ferrule to the top of the tenon, you will see and feel zero difference in asthetics and playability....

The procedure is quite simple and the ABS has excellent machining characteristics, and you'll be very pleased with the outcome !

If you have any technical questions regarding this matter please call anytime ! 321-631-1827


Sincerely, Eddie Wheat (East Coast Cue Repair)
Click to expand...

Hi Eddie.

I have been investigating in plastic materials and have a great supplier which was a BIG stock of materials. He have however not recommended me to use ABS since he mean it may crack. But I understand that if we design these capped it should be alright ? Which version do you use; Metzo Plast PS, Cycolat,Royalite, Senosan ABS or others ? I would grab some of these from my supplier and make some capped ferrules and see how it goes :)

At the moment I'm in to the totally other end of the line of materials ; High end plastics for the industry which I have made some break ferrules of. I have however not installed any of them on a shaft yet since I'm trying to find the lightest material of all the test materials I have in stock. PM me if you have any interest in the results.

N
 
Newton said:
Hi Eddie.

I have been investigating in plastic materials and have a great supplier which was a BIG stock of materials. He have however not recommended me to use ABS since he mean it may crack. But I understand that if we design these capped it should be alright ? Which version do you use; Metzo Plast PS, Cycolat,Royalite, Senosan ABS or others ? I would grab some of these from my supplier and make some capped ferrules and see how it goes :)

At the moment I'm in to the totally other end of the line of materials ; High end plastics for the industry which I have made some break ferrules of. I have however not installed any of them on a shaft yet since I'm trying to find the lightest material of all the test materials I have in stock. PM me if you have any interest in the results.

N
Click to expand...

Whoa !!!!!

I didn't realize there was a different grades of ABS..... Jennifer Prather never sent me the memo on that one, lol ! and since it's a relatively soft flexible composition... it will not crack at all !!!

Just tell her it's the abs ferrule material that you need...and it is also available in joint and buttplate material as well !!!

Please do no let my lack of knowledge of the various ABS detour your quest... I simply was unaware of the multiple compounds !

You will be very pleased with the results ABS rod is very cheap in price and is perfect for Meucci ferrule substitutions as well... it never gets brittle and hits very quiet and smooth !

And yes if you used capped which is pretty much your only option with 314 shafts you can go an easy 1/4 of an inch with the height of the cap and be perfectly in sync with the original playability and hit configuration unique to predators speciifications

Sincerely, Eddie Wheat
 
Last edited:
WheatCues said:
Whoa !!!!!

I didn't realize there was a different grades of ABS..... Jennifer Prather never sent me the memo on that one, lol ! and since it's a relatively soft flexible composition... it will not crack at all !!!

Just tell her it's the abs ferrule material that you need...and it is also available in joint and buttplate material as well !!!

Please do no let my lack of knowledge of the various ABS detour your quest... I simply was unaware of the multiple compounds !

You will be very pleased with the results ABS rod is very cheap in price and is perfect for Meucci ferrule substitutions as well... it never gets brittle and hits very quiet and smooth !

Sincerely, Eddie Wheat
Click to expand...

He he, Eddie, you had me laughing :D

I live in Norway, Europe so I'm searching for suppliers in my area so I don't need to pay a truckload in shipping and Vat. So I have not been in contact with Prather or Atlas, I just know about their shops but do most likely need to make some purchase from them in near future.

The brands I mentioned is most likely from a supplier which both shops buy from so it may be that they have just bought something which may fit their needs without considering all the bells and whistles I'm looking at :D

I'll contact my man now and see how it goes.

Thanks

N
 
Newton said:
He he, Eddie, you had me laughing :D

I live in Norway, Europe so I'm searching for suppliers in my area so I don't need to pay a truckload in shipping and Vat. So I have not been in contact with Prather or Atlas, I just know about their shops but do most likely need to make some purchase from them in near future.

The brands I mentioned is most likely from a supplier which both shops buy from so it may be that they have just bought something which may fit their needs without considering all the bells and whistles I'm looking at :D

I'll contact my man now and see how it goes.

Thanks

N
Click to expand...


oooooh ! I can understand shipping definitely would be a wee bit much !!!!

Anyways, I'm sure the typical off white ABS plastic ferrule stock is universal no matter where you are !

Good luck and please let me know how that works out for you !!!!


Sincerely, Eddie Wheat
 
Newton said:
Hi Eddie.

I have been investigating in plastic materials and have a great supplier which was a BIG stock of materials. He have however not recommended me to use ABS since he mean it may crack. But I understand that if we design these capped it should be alright ? Which version do you use; Metzo Plast PS, Cycolat,Royalite, Senosan ABS or others ? I would grab some of these from my supplier and make some capped ferrules and see how it goes :)

At the moment I'm in to the totally other end of the line of materials ; High end plastics for the industry which I have made some break ferrules of. I have however not installed any of them on a shaft yet since I'm trying to find the lightest material of all the test materials I have in stock. PM me if you have any interest in the results.

N
Click to expand...


One more thing... just for the record and other viewers of this post....

I have used ABS sleeved or capped as Meucci ferrule replacements for many years and still use ABS today on my personal playing cue becasue I like the softer feel and hit due to my natural stroke and finess' game...

I have never had an ABS ferrule crack at all... however it will scratch due to it's soft properties but has never become brittle....

I never recommend breaking with ABS,PVC or any other soft composition ferrules... there werent incorporated for that use in my opinion....


- Eddie Wheat
 
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rhncue said:
I was under the impression that they would void the guarantee if the shaft was turned smaller than 12.25.
I could be wrong, of coarse, but I don't think so.

Dick
Click to expand...


I believe the logic behind that warning is due to the possibilty of the shock of cue ball absorbtion blowing the laminated spines apart becasue there is not enough wood left to soak up the vibration of the initial impact and enertia of the eneregy transfer of hitting a 6 ounce stationary object !!!

of course that's just my opinion and I could be wrong......



- Eddie Wheat
 
if i were you i would tape off the wood also. thats what i do. the transition from wood to ferrule is tough on the 1st gen predators shafts. you can create a lip pretty easy
 
dave sutton said:
correct....
Click to expand...
That's what I thought too.
I thought Pred did not want to back up their ferrules under 12.25MM b/c they are prone to cracking already even at 12.75MM.
Seen a melamine crack lately?
 
JoeyInCali said:
That's what I thought too.
I thought Pred did not want to back up their ferrules under 12.25MM b/c they are prone to cracking already even at 12.75MM.
Seen a melamine crack lately?
Click to expand...

Joey

Would you expect that the identified "faults" is cracks then ?

The owner did not want to take the chance on sanding the ferrule bellow 11.75mm (This is a Z^2 - 314^2 =12.75mm). If this is cracks I don't see that the ferrule get any stronger by sanding it down, so I have recommended him to try it out and see how he feels. If there is any distinct "unhappy sound" in it I would try to get hold of ABS and change it for him.

N
 
Newton said:
Joey

Would you expect that the identified "faults" is cracks then ?

The owner did not want to take the chance on sanding the ferrule bellow 11.75mm (This is a Z^2 - 314^2 =12.75mm). If this is cracks I don't see that the ferrule get any stronger by sanding it down, so I have recommended him to try it out and see how he feels. If there is any distinct "unhappy sound" in it I would try to get hold of ABS and change it for him.

N
Click to expand...
I'd get it replaced.
If there's a sound, it's either cracked or unglued.

Changing that ferrule and not breaking the really thin tenon is a delicate surgery.
 
I cut that tenon off. Them take a solid piece of ferrule rod and cut a half inch tenon out of ferrule and slide it in. Takes time and must be perfect but doesn't change the play at all. I've done 5 in the last month I'd so. With more waiting. All real ivory

I also cut 2 nice grooves in the tenon for something to grab
 
Last edited:
dave sutton said:
I cut that tenon off. Them take a solid piece of ferrule rod and cut a half inch tenon out of ferrule and slide it in. Takes time and must be perfect but doesn't change the play at all. I've done 5 in the last month I'd so. With more waiting. All real ivory

I also cut 2 nice grooves in the tenon for something to grab
Click to expand...

Dave,

That's a pretty brave thing to do.... If I understand you correct, you bore a small hole down in the shaft where the tenon was, where you would glue the ferrule tenon down? In this way you don't have any wood inside the ferrule?

I have not done any ferrule changes on Z2, mainly buzzing around with my own Q's which has OB-1 shafts, so I'm not sure how small the tenon is? I thought that the Pred shafts where hollow all the way up ?
http://www.kendocues.com/Websted/Pictures/Sider/Xray_of_shaft_&_Cue.html#0


N
 
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