High Entry Fee and Played in Sportsbar or Poolroom

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Looks like most of the top players have come around to the idea of playing for their entry fee with maybe a small amount of added money. Is playing in sports bars and poolroom for $500-$2000 entry fee with no or very little added money just a trend or the wave of the future? I for one hope it keeps going. There are many nice poolrooms and sport bars around this country for 16-64 pros and open players to keep busy. I'm pretty sure each place could run their own tournament or at the most hire a TD to run it for them. The only thing I can see stopping this trend is that three guys keep winning every tournament. My choice to stop that from happening would be 9-ball, race to 15-21 on a bar box...Valley or Diamonds. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
Looks like most of the top players have come around to the idea of playing for their entry fee with maybe a small amount of added money. Is playing in sports bars and poolroom for $500-$2000 entry fee with no or very little added money just a trend or the wave of the future? I for one hope it keeps going. There are many nice poolrooms and sport bars around this country for 16-64 pros and open players to keep busy. I'm pretty sure each place could run their own tournament or at the most hire a TD to run it for them. The only thing I can see stopping this trend is that three guys keep winning every tournament. My choice to stop that from happening would be 9-ball, race to 15-21 on a bar box...Valley or Diamonds. Johnnyt
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Now if only there was some entity willing to organize and promote this trend. Then possibly stream it all around the world for all to see. I think this could become a new way of promoting the players, the establishments & the sport as a whole. (Win/Win)

I think the partnering establishments & Bigtruck are onto something here and based on the demand, so do many others. Could this be the new model everyone is looking for? I can't answer that for certain at this time. But I will say this, based purely on the cost of putting on a large event (facility rental, table delivery & setup + rental, furniture & furnishings, promotional costs, travel expenses, concession sales guarantees and on, and on, and on), as you can see those costs become astronomical real fast. Money I feel is better served towards the prize fund and in the process supporting the local establishments, staff & proprietors.

Wouldn't the spectators, establishments and staff, competitors and the sport as a whole be better served in the manner Bigtruck & establishments are promoting & delivering currently? I think so, but this is just my opinion on the matter and some may feel otherwise. I'm interested to hear what others think, and hopefully they explain in detail why. #changemyview

Dopc.
 
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Johnnyt said:
Looks like most of the top players have come around to the idea of playing for their entry fee with maybe a small amount of added money. Is playing in sports bars and poolroom for $500-$2000 entry fee with no or very little added money just a trend or the wave of the future? I for one hope it keeps going. There are many nice poolrooms and sport bars around this country for 16-64 pros and open players to keep busy. I'm pretty sure each place could run their own tournament or at the most hire a TD to run it for them. The only thing I can see stopping this trend is that three guys keep winning every tournament. My choice to stop that from happening would be 9-ball, race to 15-21 on a bar box...Valley or Diamonds. Johnnyt
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, it's probably the wave of the future. It's another indication that there's no money in the pool industry. We can't afford to rent/set-up pool tables in a non-pool venue like a hotel ballroom so we need to use pool rooms. No room for spectators...but we don't have those anyway.

Just playing for each other's cash. How many golfers/tennisplayers do you think would enter a tournament in which they had to pay an entry fee and the only prize money was the other players entry fees? Not many.
 
bdorman said:
Unfortunately, it's probably the wave of the future. It's another indication that there's no money in the pool industry. We can't afford to rent/set-up pool tables in a non-pool venue like a hotel ballroom so we need to use pool rooms. No room for spectators...but we don't have those anyway.

Just playing for each other's cash. How many golfers/tennisplayers do you think would enter a tournament in which they had to pay an entry fee and the only prize money was the other players entry fees? Not many.
Click to expand...

bdorman.
Thanks for your well thought out reply and you bring to the table (pardon the pun) some valid points and opinions.

Allow me to ask you this, without these smaller events and formats, what alternatives are there other than the few established large events left in existence.

Below I will list a few questions I pose in response to your post. These are constructive questions and not meant as an attack towards anyones character. I'm just trying to establish conversation on johnnyt's thread topic.

1) Where else could these higher level players get this amount of strong competitive action/play time in to keep their game at a top level?

2) Where else could the locals to the venue "fans/spectators etc" get teh chance to get up close and personal exposure to the higher caliber players they otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity to meet or see in their home town?

3) Does it always have to be about the money, what about the love of the game or the love for stiff competition? I understand life isn't free and this isn't the PGA with deep pocketed sponsors galore either. I sure wish that were the case.

4) What about the local monster who would like to take a crack at a field of monster players that otherwise couldn't afford or get the time away from work to travel and attend one of the few left larger events?

5) We hear all the time about local poolhalls going out of business. How is supporting the owners & staff on a grass root level a bad thing?

I'm sure I could think of many more, but I/we have a busy weekend ahead of us. Is this newer tournament model the most desirable solution, in my opinion, No. I would love to have a weekly DCC like event in different cities all over the U.S.A. in addition to the sponsors to support it, but that's not a reality in this sport as of late. On the flip side, are there any alternatives at this current time, sadly the answer is also No.

Again, I would love to see this conversation continue. Maybe I'm out of touch with reality and do not realize it. If you feel that is the case, explain why and #changmyview.

Dopc.
 
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bdorman said:
Just playing for each other's cash. How many golfers/tennisplayers do you think would enter a tournament in which they had to pay an entry fee and the only prize money was the other players entry fees? Not many.
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Being simple minded won't help the sport grow either. It has to start somewhere.
 
I hope I am not the only one with the opinion that I shouldn't have to take vacation time and go out to Vegas, New York, or over seas to see professional caliber talent. I enjoy seeing top quality players come to the smaller places. It really gives us a perspective of the game we wouldn't normally see.

A word about sponsors. Paid viewers = paid sponsors. Bring a specific number of viewers for events to sponsors and sponsors will follow with the money. I don't think we would get anywhere by telling sponsors that we got 300 viewers on our last streamed tournament, wanna throw in $10,000?? Now if we could have a conversation like we had 1,500 viewers with 65% being males between the ages 18-35 would you like to advertise your new Energy Drink? That might spark a little interest. But until we can give a much larger viewer segment pool will continue to lack promotion $$$$.
 
Hi Dopc,
I think we're singing out of the same songbook.
Please understand that I don't mean my comments as a criticism of the industry or any of its participants; pool simply is what it is for better or worse. I've often commented that we should be careful what we wish for when discussing a "growing, successful" pool industry. We might gain free pool on TV, more players, better American teams, etc. but we'd lose a lot too -- like the access we enjoy to the greatest players, the uninterrupted matches ("We'll be back after 5 minutes of words from our sponsors..." while the players cool their heels), $75/hr lessons from champions, and so on.


Dopc said:
bdorman.
Thanks for your well thought out reply and you bring to the table (pardon the pun) some valid points and opinions.

Allow me to ask you this, without these smaller events and formats, what alternatives are there other than the few established large events left in existence.

Below I will list a few questions I pose in response to your post. These are constructive questions and not meant as an attack towards anyones character. I'm just trying to establish conversation on johnnyt's thread topic.

1) Where else could these higher level players get this amount of strong competitive action/play time in to keep their game at a top level?

In today's marketplace, nowhere. A handful of national/international tournaments, but the mainstay will be the pool room tournament which is actually just group gambling (instead of winning money from one player you beat everyone and collect 30-50% of the money).

2) Where else could the locals to the venue "fans/spectators etc" get teh chance to get up close and personal exposure to the higher caliber players they otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity to meet or see in their home town?

Sadly, this element would be gone in a successful pool industry. I doubt Tiger Woods would play 9-holes against me for $1000, just not worth his time.

3) Does it always have to be about the money, what about the love of the game or the love for stiff competition? I understand life isn't free and this isn't the PGA with deep pocketed sponsors galore either. I sure wish that were the case.

It's not about the money; it's just that money is what keeps any industry/sport alive. People gotta eat. Consider that if you have a monthly $5,000-added tournament, that's only $60,000 in non-player money for the entire year...divided up by how many players?

4) What about the local monster who would like to take a crack at a field of monster players that otherwise couldn't afford or get the time away from work to travel and attend one of the few left larger events?

See #2

5) We hear all the time about local poolhalls going out of business. How is supporting the owners & staff on a grass root level a bad thing?

IMHO if pool has any hope of growing in the future it will come from the local level. But pro pool will benefit from that: take 1000 new players, 100 of them will become enthralled with the game (like we are) and work to improve. 10 of those will enter pro-level tournaments (i.e. contritube money to the prize fund) and one of them will become a serious contender. Do that 100 times and you've got 100,000 new players and 100 Open+ level candidates vying for a spot on the Mosconi Cup.

I'm sure I could think of many more, but I/we have a busy weekend ahead of us. Is this newer tournament model the most desirable solution, in my opinion, No. I would love to have a weekly DCC like event in different cities all over the U.S.A. in addition to the sponsors to support it, but that's not a reality in this sport as of late. On the flip side, are there any alternatives at this current time, sadly the answer is also No.

Agreed.

Again, I would love to see this conversation continue. Maybe I'm out of touch with reality and do not realize it. If you feel that is the case, explain why and #changmyview.

Dopc.
Click to expand...
 
bdorman said:
Hi Dopc,
I think we're singing out of the same songbook.
Please understand that I don't mean my comments as a criticism of the industry or any of its participants; pool simply is what it is for better or worse. I've often commented that we should be careful what we wish for when discussing a "growing, successful" pool industry. We might gain free pool on TV, more players, better American teams, etc. but we'd lose a lot too -- like the access we enjoy to the greatest players, the uninterrupted matches ("We'll be back after 5 minutes of words from our sponsors..." while the players cool their heels), $75/hr lessons from champions, and so on.
Click to expand...

bdorman.
Thank you for your reply. Indeed we are "Singing out of the same songbook". Like I said earlier, I did not mean for my post to come across as combative or argumentative at all, if I did then we can blame my poor writing skills. :shrug: I was merely trying to spark some decent discussion on the topic of his (johnnyt) thread.

Based on you detailed answers of my posed questions, we do indeed think and agree along the same lines. It is also entirely possible I completely mis-interpreted your first post altogether, which certainly wouldn't be the first time I've been guilty of that. I appreciate you taking the time to both answer and contribute to the thread with well thought out mature responses. Best wishes to you and I look forward to future discussions.

Dopc.
 
Dopc said:
Now if only there was some entity willing to organize and promote this trend. Then possibly stream it all around the world for all to see. I think this could become a new way of promoting the players, the establishments & the sport as a whole. (Win/Win)

I think the partnering establishments & Bigtruck are onto something here and based on the demand, so do many others. Could this be the new model everyone is looking for? I can't answer that for certain at this time. But I will say this, based purely on the cost of putting on a large event (facility rental, table delivery & setup + rental, furniture & furnishings, promotional costs, travel expenses, concession sales guarantees and on, and on, and on), as you can see those costs become astronomical real fast. Money I feel is better served towards the prize fund and in the process supporting the local establishments, staff & proprietors.

Wouldn't the spectators, establishments and staff, competitors and the sport as a whole be better served in the manner Bigtruck & establishments are promoting & delivering currently? I think so, but this is just my opinion on the matter and some may feel otherwise. I'm interested to hear what others think, and hopefully they explain in detail why. #changemyview

Dopc.
Click to expand...
It is not a new trend, it brings the game full circle with players gambling for their own money. It sets the sport back 50 years when they had jamborees like Johnston City. Tournaments with essentially no prize money to speak of, just an excuse for the players to all be in the same place at the same time to gamble. In this case they gamble for entry fees.
 
macguy said:
It is not a new trend, it brings the game full circle with players gambling for their own money. It sets the sport back 50 years when they had jamborees like Johnston City. Tournaments with essentially no prize money to speak of, just an excuse for the players to all be in the same place at the same time to gamble. In this case they gamble for entry fees.
Click to expand...


I guess I have not looked at it that way. Being in my early to mid 40's, that is a point in time I've only heard or read about and not experienced first hand. Thank you for pointing that out. Excellent viewpoint Macguy.

Dopc.
 
macguy said:
It is not a new trend, it brings the game full circle with players gambling for their own money. It sets the sport back 50 years when they had jamborees like Johnston City. Tournaments with essentially no prize money to speak of, just an excuse for the players to all be in the same place at the same time to gamble. In this case they gamble for entry fees.
Click to expand...

And the auctions. That they didn't have 50 years ago. Johnnyt

PS: Johnnyt was there live 50 years ago.
 
I agree with most everything said here, about supporting pool halls and growing the sport from its grass roots but i have another idea.

What about all the golf and country clubs that sit dormant for the winter months. A tournament crew with 10 valley bar tables and a truck could feasibly go room to room during golfs off season holding these $500 - $2000 entry tournaments. It would give us venues outside of casinos and exposure to different demographics (read: higher incomes & deeper pockets) that might once again spike pools popularity. From a golf clubs perspective it would create some much needed revenue in their off season, with spectators and streaming advertising as well as being a draw to their members as something other local clubs wouldn't have. After the crew packs up and moves on it would certainly spike interest and participation at local pool rooms without them having to fork out money.

My two cents.

Bernie
 
Last weekend was the Midwest 9 Ball classic at Sidepockets here in Wichita. Entry was $50 and 52 players were in the field. The place was packed and it was a good tournament. This weekend there was supposed to be another tournament at another place with $1000 entry fee and limited to a 32 player field. First place was to be 16K. Only a handful of people signed up - so it was canceled. So here anyway, the entry fee limits the action I guess; although $50 to $1000 is a pretty big leap. Perhaps there is an amount in between that would work out better.
 
I can't see how this isn't a win/win for open pool events. The one thing I believe you have to have when doing it this way is legal Calcutta's to pump up the purse, gate at venue sportsbar, and PPV. I guess you can do regional tournaments this way but would need some way to keep the baby seal clubbers from stealing the purse. Johnnyt
 
Big Bad Bern said:
I agree with most everything said here, about supporting pool halls and growing the sport from its grass roots but i have another idea.

What about all the golf and country clubs that sit dormant for the winter months. A tournament crew with 10 valley bar tables and a truck could feasibly go room to room during golfs off season holding these $500 - $2000 entry tournaments. It would give us venues outside of casinos and exposure to different demographics (read: higher incomes & deeper pockets) that might once again spike pools popularity. From a golf clubs perspective it would create some much needed revenue in their off season, with spectators and streaming advertising as well as being a draw to their members as something other local clubs wouldn't have. After the crew packs up and moves on it would certainly spike interest and participation at local pool rooms without them having to fork out money.

My two cents.

Bernie
Click to expand...

Not a bad way to promote pool either and to deeper pockets and golfers are use to gambling no matter what they tell you. ;). Johnnyt
 
The lack of high-level competition is for sure one reason why the level of play has dropped, but I personally think adding a few high-entry tournaments (with no added money and very little "dead money") won't change much and you might end up stunting the game's growth by cutting out the talented, aspiring players who can't spare several thousand dollars just for a chance to test their game against established players.

I think one problem players face is that they have to play their best and cash all the time, everytime just to scrape out a living. This means they have no leeway to experiment with their game, get some professional coaching, retool their stance/mechanics etc. and make improvements because they can't afford the temporary drop in their game.
 
Isn't this how the vast majority of tourneys are played, with the exception of the big ones with hundreds of players that can't fit them all in one pool room?
 
I agree. Do something to start the come back. This would be cool to see and I would go to it (not good enough to buy in just yet), and I could see it being an initial cost. But eventually there would opportunities for advertisement and that equals money that can be reinvested back into the sport.
 
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