Higher skill pocket billiards players - 9 ball or snooker players?

[Cornerman]

Here is Anthropic Claude's answer for who would play better in high level competition between 9 ball players and snooker players. Do you have a reason to disagree? Also, is this effect another example of the usual "its easier to go from a 9 footer to a bar table than from a bar table to a 9 footer" argument? And what does this mean for our American, European, and Asian 9 top 9 ball players? Should we be watching more snooker?

"
can the best american, european, and filipino 9 ball players beat the best snooker players at snooker and vice versa
3:24 PM





Synthesized cross-discipline cue sports dynamics and skill transferability patterns

Synthesized cross-discipline cue sports dynamics and skill transferability patterns

This is a great cue sports question, and the short answer is: the crossover is very asymmetric. Snooker players have a much easier time competing at pool than pool players do at snooker. Here's why:

Snooker Players Playing 9-Ball​

Top snooker players can be genuinely competitive at 9-ball relatively quickly. The snooker table is 12 feet long with notoriously tight pockets and smaller balls, so snooker players already possess extreme cueing precision and positional awareness. Moving to a 9-foot pool table with larger pockets feels comparatively forgiving to them.

Notable examples: Steve Davis won multiple pool world championships after his snooker career peaked. Jimmy White was also competitive in pool. More recently, Judd Trump has shown interest in pool and clearly has the raw talent to compete. The potting and cue ball control skills transfer very well — the main adjustment is adapting to the faster, shorter game and different strategic patterns.

Could the best snooker players beat the best 9-ball players? Not consistently at the highest level — elite 9-ball specialists like Shane Van Boening (US), Francisco Sanchez Ruiz (Spain/Europe), or Carlo Biado (Philippines) have dedicated their lives to that specific discipline. But top snooker players could hang with them and win matches.

9-Ball Players Playing Snooker​

This is where it falls apart. The best American, European, and Filipino pool players would struggle enormously against elite snooker players on a full-size snooker table. The reasons stack up fast:

• Table size: The 12-foot table demands a completely different range of power and touch. Long pots that snooker players hit routinely feel almost impossible to a pool player at first.
• Pocket size: Snooker pockets are cut much tighter relative to ball size. The margin of error shrinks dramatically.
• Positional complexity: Snooker involves navigating 15 reds and 6 colors in sequences that require thinking many shots ahead with extremely precise cue ball placement.
• Safety play: Snooker's tactical game is far more intricate. Elite players like Ronnie O'Sullivan, Judd Trump, or Mark Selby would dominate the safety exchanges.

Even the legendary Efren Reyes — widely considered the greatest pool player ever — played some snooker but never came close to competing at the professional level. The same goes for other Filipino greats and American stars. The skill gap going in this direction is simply enormous.

The Bottom Line​

Think of it like tennis vs. table tennis. A world-class tennis player could become a decent table tennis player more easily than the reverse, because certain foundational skills transfer "downward" in scale more readily. Snooker's demands in precision, range, and tactical depth are so extreme that mastering it gives players a toolkit that adapts well to pool — but pool mastery, as impressive as it is, doesn't prepare you for the full-size snooker challenge. The best 9-ball players in the world would likely lose heavily to even mid-ranked professional snooker players on a snooker table.

"

I never wanna answer this freaking question again.

And I don’t wanna answer to all the excuses.

Efren beat Ronnie. Though Ronnie was a teenager, he was still one of the best snooker players on the planet at the time. They were on a snooker table in Bankok. Efren was using a pool cue. Earlier in that tournament, Efren had several century breaks. Small gambling outside of the tournament, Ronnie was giving Efren 25 points per frame, which sounds substantial against another snooker player, but the going word has always been that a top snooker player in full tournament mode should beat any nine ball player spot or no spot. Not only did Efren beat Ronnie that snooker set, but they continued by playing 7-ball on the snooker table. Efren won that set as well. This is a pretty well known story retold by Efren himself as well as Darryl Peach and Ronnie himself. Efren was record by Mark Wilson, and Efren told me the story himself.

Here’s the kicker… Efren has never been known to be the greatest pure shot maker in the pool world.

 

[gregcantrall]

different equipment, different discipline, different approach in the game, different skill prioritization. although it would benefit the player if they play multiple discipline.

Oh! Kinda like Efren being forced to play billiards in his homeland as he totally dominated rotation and couldn't get action.
The skills he brought to the 9 ball circuit changed the skills required of professional players .

 

[Cornerman]

The Bottom Line​

Think of it like tennis vs. table tennis. A world-class tennis player could become a decent table tennis player more easily than the reverse, because certain foundational skills transfer "downward" in scale more readily.

"

Horse hockey. That’s an even worse comparison, and as much as I love using AI, it might make me reconsider ever using Claude as a deep research tool. Any top Ping Pong player would laugh in Claude’s virtual face.

 

[uk_9_ball_convert]

I have not read all the posts, here is a video that provides insights into differences in the pool vs snooker comparison.
Edit: oops forgot the link.

Funnily enough Melling has just posted a video called 5 beginner mistakes, and two of the examples he says most American players do this wrong all the time (bridge for when cueing over a ball and standing side on to the shot which is his explanation for America struggling with tighter pockets in Mosconi cup)

 

[Cleveland_Rocks]

I never wanna answer this freaking question again.

And I don’t wanna answer to all the excuses.

Efren beat Ronnie. The Ronnie was a teenager. He was still one of the best snooker players on the planet of the time. They were on a snooker table. Efren was using a pool queue. In that tournament, Efren had several century breaks. Ronnie was giving Efren 25 points per frame, which sounds substantial against another snooker player, but the going word is always been that a top snooker player in full tournament mode should beat any nine ball player spot or no spot. Not only did Efren beat Ronnie, but they continued by playing 7-ball on the snooker table. Efren won that set as well. This is a pretty well known story retold by Efren himself as well as Darryl Peach and Ronnie himself. Efren was record by Mark Griffin, and Efren told me the story himself.

Here’s the kicker… Efren has never been known to be the greatest pure shot maker in the pool world.

Thank you for this story. This is a good example of the context that I was hoping to gain.

 

[Cameron Smith]

LLMs are in very simple terms acting as an aggregator. They will summarize what the consensus is based on probability, which itself is based on the amount of information out there to consume. They will tend to say snooker is harder or that snooker players are the best, not necessarily because it’s true, but because there’s simply more text out there and within the model making that case and much of it being made by snooker players.

 

[straightline]

Whatever they (bots) think or don't think there is the fanatic factor. They don't call 'em disciplines for nothing.
I suppose you can have fanatic jacks of all trades but apparently they'd be limited to jacks. The fanatics almost have to win in their fanatic spots.

 

[Cleveland_Rocks]

LLMs are in very simple terms acting as an aggregator. They will summarize what the consensus is based on probability, which itself is based on the amount of information out there to consume. They will tend to say snooker is harder or that snooker players are the best, not necessarily because it’s true, but because there’s simply more text out there and within the model making that case and much of it being made by snooker players.

This is in general a true statement.

 

[nataddrho]

Funnily enough Melling has just posted a video called 5 beginner mistakes, and two of the examples he says most American players do this wrong all the time (bridge for when cueing over a ball and standing side on to the shot which is his explanation for America struggling with tighter pockets in Mosconi cup)

Reminds me of this excellent article:

https://www.reddit.com/r/billiards/comments/1irk7im/the_real_truth_about_pool_improvement_why

Namely, "This is too basic," he says. Then proceeds to accidentally put spin on half his shots. Because his fundamentals weren't actually letting him hit where he was aiming.

The absolute number one problem with American players is their inflated egos, which is fed from the individualistic society we live in here. You can't "personal-style"-ize your way around proper fundamentals. People here would rather jump into the herd and live the life, mediocrely, rather than be bad at something boring for a long time before mastering it. It is related to this current willful-ignorance (or even spiteful-ignorance) environment that bothers me so much.

 

[Jaden]

Shaw said afterwards that he played safeties he knew Trump didn't know how to get out of. He also of course is a much better pool player.

It is apples and oranges - snooker players who had dabbled in pool have done well in tournaments but probably need to get lucky with layouts/patterns against the top players (high 700s and 800s) to have a chance of beating them. The very best pool players on the otherhand will rarely make breaks bigger than 50 or 60 and will lose to top amateur players in a race to 4 pretty much all the time.

Snooker is harder. Pool involves skills that snooker players rarely master. That's about the long and short of it.

I have to call bullshit. I can count the number of times I've played snooker on both hands and have an 83 break and several breaks over 60. I have to think that a top pool player who puts in the time would easily get higher average breaks.

edit: I have played on snooker tables more than that, but not actually the game of snooker. I used to play rotation and 8 ball on the snooker table with the skill balls, which are snooker sized balls in 1-15.

 

[Swighey]

I have to call bullshit. I can count the number of times I've played snooker on both hands and have an 83 break and several breaks over 60. I have to think that a top pool player who puts in the time would easily get higher average breaks.

Maybe you should enter Q school and get on the World Snooker Tour. You would "easily" have beaten Oliver Brown or Craig Steadman in this event with those higher average breaks in tournament play.

 

[Jaden]

Maybe you should enter Q school and get on the World Snooker Tour. You would "easily" have beaten Oliver Brown or Craig Steadman in this event with those higher average breaks in tournament play.

I didn't say "I" would have those higher average breaks, I said top pool players should have higher average breaks if they dedicated themselves to it. There isn't incentive to take the risk for the higher level pool players they're succeeding at what they're doing. The only ones who have tried were already declining in ability when they gave it a shot.

I didn't really want to get into this argument it's been had "100 times" (tongue in cheek) on this site.

SH!7, back in the day we had a top snooker player who got banned for two or three years from the snooker tour who was from Australia tell us all about how he was going to come rob all of the American pool players at pool...lol... Never happened.

 

[GideonF]

I didn't say "I" would have those higher average breaks, I said top pool players should have higher average breaks if they dedicated themselves to it. There isn't incentive to take the risk for the higher level pool players they're succeeding at what they're doing. The only ones who have tried were already declining in ability when they gave it a shot.

Alex was 36 when he tried to make it through Q school in 2014. He had won the DCC 9b in 2013 and won MoT at the DCC in 2015 (second in 9b and first in 1p) and 2016. And Alex wasn’t new to snooker - he won the Canadian championships more than once and runs centuries. That said, I’m sure he would have had a better chance to get his card if he’d tried it a decade earlier.

Also, just getting your card doesn’t mean you will have much chance. Many players make it through only to struggle to win enough matches to stay on the tour (as happens with golfers). And despite all the money in the sport, it’s very top heavy in terms of payout. The 64th player on the one year list made under 50,000 pounds.

Could someone like Filler in his prime make a run at it? I think so, but would he have a chance to get into the top 64? It’s tough - the field is packed with players who are unbelievably talented and who’ve played the game their whole life. Players like Hendry have said that unlike the 1990s when a top player could expect easy matches the first few rounds, now the field is so strong that top players can be upset in the first round.

 

[mjantti]

Perhaps you could follow up and list the World Pool Championships that Steve Davis has won. Maybe they were at one pocket because I don't think he has finished higher than 17th at 9-ball. Edit: he finished tied for 5th in the 2000 WPC including an amazing win over Efren Reyes.

A good example of asking a language model how pool players compare to snooker players. People still think AI (LLM) has intelligence. Especially with abstract concepts like this AI output is simply bullcr*p.

 

[mjantti]

please stop using ai as your 'fact' source.

Yes. And it is not even Artificial Intelligence. It is a language model (LLM). LLM output is words, every new word is a result of the LLM calculating a probability for a set of words.

I think I could even play around a bit and create a couple of AI agents which are being taught one aiming system each and then let them argument with each other which one is the best

 

[mjantti]

AI sucks. Aside from it hallucinating Davis winning the World Championship in pool, I note the following:

Perhaps the greatest safety player in snooker is Selby, who began his career as a professional English Pool player, not snooker. IMO no top pool player would struggle greatly with the safety play, once they adjusted to the tables and the directional cloth.

Alex Pagulayan is probably the “American Pool” player who plays the best snooker. He’s won the Canadian Snooker Championships more than once and regularly runs centuries. He tried to win a place on the professional tour via Q school and did okay but didn’t win a spot. He might have had a chance if he’d tried earlier in his career.

To me one of the biggest issues is stroke - the elaborate strokes of many pool players will not work on the snooker table. The pockets are just too tight.

Snooker players have had more success crossing over for sure. But they have to actually learn the game to beat good players. The break. Proper patterns and positioning (too often they play across the position zone and not into it). Jumping. Davis did have some notable wins. Tony Drago was a good player. Gary Wilson has an established Fargo of 789 and is probably closest to being competitive, and yet he’s not in the top 100 of Fargo.

Alex is probably the most capable of pro pool players to take another shot at Q School main tour qualification tournament. Corey Deuel has entered as well at least once, but did poorly. Kudos for trying, because the level of play is absurd and IIRC, it is a race to 4 with players running centuries and you could be seated for most of the match. In a way, you probably get more opportunities in a professional pool match than a professional snooker match.

Back in the day, I think it was Jim Rempe who travelled to Europe to play some snooker tournaments. Can't remember how he did.

The most notable pool player appearance in a snooker tournament by far is filipino Leonardo Andam entering the 1992 IBSF World Snooker Championships (amateur) and playing with a pool cue entered the final where he lost to Neil Mosley 11-2. I heard he switched to a snooker cue for the final and couldn't make ball If you look at the past champions, a lot of future pro players have emerged through it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBSF_World_Snooker_Championship

What has to be added, most snooker players especially with English pool background could do really well in Heyball, because the table plays similar to a snooker table and you need better mechanics to shoot into those tiny pockets.