Hitting cut shots with draw - why do I keep missing?

Fats_Brown_Lives

New member
[10/24 Edit -I have enough to move forward from this post and appreciate the helpful thoughts and tips. I'll pay it forward best I can!]

Hi all - first post. Anyone have guidance on how to hit a standard cut shot with normal back draw? I am comfortable hitting cuts and draw shots, but when I combine it - I miss at a frustrating percentage. I've researched it and scoured youtube, but no one seems to have trouble making the object ball or offer any methods different than if I were to hit center or top English.


Any thoughts/help?
 
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Hey Fats.

Man, you got a lot of good advice.

I can sometimes over complicate things by trying to adjust too many things at once. Maybe trying to hit lower on the cue ball and harder before I’m really comfortable with the shot.

One thing that has helped me learn, is to just find my comfort zone on an unfamiliar shot. How do I naturally want to shoot that ball disregarding positional considerations?

If a shot feels really foreign, I find it helpful to shoot at pocket speed noting the cue ball path. As that becomes comfortable, I can turn up the volume and begin playing cue ball to a specific half, quarter, or diamond width of the table.

As that becomes more natural, I might sticker up a layout where that is the first shot of the run. Succeed annd sticker another where you turn it 90 degrees and come off the short rail instead of long or have to play a second rail or longer line.


You’ll start recognizing and planning for that type of shot in your patterns.
 
Maybe I've grow more impatient over the years, but this kind of thing drives me nuts.

I understand people are disparate for explanations, but at APA4 should we be resolving the physics behind what's going on..?

If you repeatedly hit a shot a certain way and consistently miss either thick or thin. Then simply consider that before you shoot the next time and alter your aim. That's how learning to aim works.

You don't get to HAMB consistency by having someone explain what you'll discover via HAMB effort.

Take any given shot. Hit it enough without any action on the CB until your 99%. Now hit it with some level of CB english. Note how that changes the shot outcome. Compensate if necessary till you reach 99% again. Alter CB action, rinse/repeat for eternity.

Welcome to pool.
 
Maybe I've grow more impatient over the years, but this kind of thing drives me nuts.

I understand people are disparate for explanations, but at APA4 should we be resolving the physics behind what's going on..?

If you repeatedly hit a shot a certain way and consistently miss either thick or thin. Then simply consider that before you shoot the next time and alter your aim. That's how learning to aim works.

You don't get to HAMB consistency by having someone explain what you'll discover via HAMB effort.

Take any given shot. Hit it enough without any action on the CB until your 99%. Now hit it with some level of CB english. Note how that changes the shot outcome. Compensate if necessary till you reach 99% again. Alter CB action, rinse/repeat for eternity.

Welcome to pool.
Sounds like you're self aware on the impatience. I was curious about a situation and asked a simple question - does draw english affect a cut shot in a way I should account for. After running my own drills, asking my team members, internet research I was coming up short, I hoped a few people on a public forum would answer Yes/No, and maybe offer a few bits of advice to improve my game.

I've gotten several pieces of good advice and drills I can do (much more than I actually expected) and I look forward to working on it. But others like you seem offended that I would even ask. Good with the bad I guess when you turn to the internet.

Anyway - thanks to everyone that took a minute to help with my question, reading the responses has been fun and enlightening!
 
Sounds like you're self aware on the impatience. I was curious about a situation and asked a simple question - does draw english affect a cut shot in a way I should account for. After running my own drills, asking my team members, internet research I was coming up short, I hoped a few people on a public forum would answer Yes/No, and maybe offer a few bits of advice to improve my game.

I've gotten several pieces of good advice and drills I can do (much more than I actually expected) and I look forward to working on it. But others like you seem offended that I would even ask. Good with the bad I guess when you turn to the internet.

Anyway - thanks to everyone that took a minute to help with my question, reading the responses has been fun and enlightening!
Apologies, don't take my comments as a personal attack. Although you seem to have taken them as such. It was not the intention. As you have said, this is the internet, and more than just yourself will venture here looking for insight.

However, clearly whatever you were doing did effect the shot or you wouldn't have been missing it. So, there's your answer. The obvious recourse is to alter said aim, and retain that information for the next similar situation. Why that rinse / repeat needs to be vetted on the internet is what baffles me. Again, no personal attack toward you. Just a general statement as a critique to the need for social media justification most crave these days. You could have resolved the matter on the table with the amount of time misdirected to this thread.

This is akin to posting to a woodworking forum about what to do to stop the pain you feel when you hit your hand with a hammer.
 
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Apologies, don't take my comments as a personal attack. Although you seem to have taken them as such. It was not the intention. As you have said, this is the internet, and more than just yourself will venture here looking for insight.

However, clearly whatever you were doing did effect the shot or you wouldn't have been missing it. So, there's your answer. The obvious recourse is to alter said aim, and retain that information for the next similar situation. Why that rinse / repeat needs to be vetted on the internet is what baffles me. Again, no personal attack toward you. Just a general statement as a critique to need for social media justification most crave these days. You could have resolved the matter on the table with the amount of time misdirected to this thread.

This is akin to posting to a woodworking forum about what to do to stop the pain you feel when you hit your hand with a hammer.
That last line killed me lol.

Tho to be fair, I think there's a lot of good that can come from a thread like this, with more experienced players pointing out what would become obvious only after many many balls were hit. Def a time saver, but certainly no substitute for hitting a bunch of balls and making mental notes and adjustments along the way. Working out any stroke kinks with a local instructor will end up giving much cleaner feedback on ball reactions tho, cuz to learn what the balls do when hit a certain way, you must first develop the ability to hit them the way you intend to. Many APA4's don't.
 
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Maybe I've grow more impatient over the years, but this kind of thing drives me nuts.

I understand people are disparate for explanations, but at APA4 should we be resolving the physics behind what's going on..?

If you repeatedly hit a shot a certain way and consistently miss either thick or thin. Then simply consider that before you shoot the next time and alter your aim. That's how learning to aim works.

You don't get to HAMB consistency by having someone explain what you'll discover via HAMB effort.

Take any given shot. Hit it enough without any action on the CB until your 99%. Now hit it with some level of CB english. Note how that changes the shot outcome. Compensate if necessary till you reach 99% again. Alter CB action, rinse/repeat for eternity.

Welcome to pool.

This is a common sense approach. Pay attention to the results of your shot, if it doesn't fall look at if it was thick or thin, then make the appropriate adjustments. Why get more complicated than that?

Here's why. I introduced the idea into this thread that because draw takes better on thicker hits, people miss the vast majority of their cut shots with draw on the undercut side. Some argue that this is due to the cut induced throw. I've been teaching full time for five years now and after watching hundreds of people miss shots like this thick it really looks to me like steering is the issue. This isn't just on draw shots. The same thing happens any time people are cutting an object ball and trying to hold the cue ball for shape.

So by 1) Knowing that people universally miss draw shots thick, and 2) The reason behind this tendency, you can skip thousands of mysterious misses along the way, and possibly reach a level of success that surpasses people who haven't figured this out and continue to miss these shots thick for life.

So I'm with you to a point. Sometimes problems can be very one dimensional, like if you keep missing a cut shot thin, try to catch more ball. Other times things that seem really one dimensional can be more complex and we have to address the underlying cause. For example if someone isn't getting their cue ball to draw you might say 'hit it lower', but maybe they are addressing the cue ball low but hitting near center, and maybe the reason for that is an elbow drop that lifts their tip, and maybe the reason for that is in their mind they think they need to do something extra to bring the ball back and their brain interprets that as throwing their arm into the shot, and maybe if you understand that and make a point of relaxing, keeping your elbow high, and striving to follow throw the point on the cue ball you are addressing then you will get better results as opposed to simply shouting to yourself 'hit lower!'.
 
That last line killed me lol.

Tho to be fair, I think there's a lot of good that can come from a thread like this, with more experienced players pointing out what would become obvious only after many many balls were hit. Def a time saver, but certainly no substitute for hitting a bunch of balls and making mental notes and adjustments along the way.
I'd venture to say it doesn't save any time at all. In the end the tires have to hit the road. You can type exceedingly helpful responses endlessly here but that insight still has to be applied. Eventually the reader will have to hit the table and unless they by some miracle nail it in the first try. (Some, myself included, will say you haven't learnt anything until you failed at least once.) They'll still need to assess the miss and correct for it. Just like they would have in the first place.

I'm not against practicing reading comprehension online. However, if you're trying to develop a tangible skill. Physically practicing that skill is leaps and bounds more beneficial with a hands on approach.
Working out any stroke kinks with a local instructor will end up giving much cleaner feedback on ball reactions tho, cuz to learn what the balls do when hit a certain way, you must first develop the ability to hit them the way you intend to. Many APA4's don't.
Different conversation. If we want to introduce the limitless variables that may also be plaquing the shooter. Then this goes beyond what can be done on a faceless forum. An APA4 has too many problems with their game to allow the "if what" coefficient to be introduced.
 
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Maybe I've grow more impatient over the years, but this kind of thing drives me nuts.

I understand people are disparate for explanations, but at APA4 should we be resolving the physics behind what's going on..?

If you repeatedly hit a shot a certain way and consistently miss either thick or thin. Then simply consider that before you shoot the next time and alter your aim. That's how learning to aim works.

You don't get to HAMB consistency by having someone explain what you'll discover via HAMB effort.

Take any given shot. Hit it enough without any action on the CB until your 99%. Now hit it with some level of CB english. Note how that changes the shot outcome. Compensate if necessary till you reach 99% again. Alter CB action, rinse/repeat for eternity.

Welcome to pool.

People learn in different ways.

For instance, I have enough knowledge of physics and a base understanding that allows me to visualize what is going on based on the numbers and concepts. It took me a while to realize that not everyone has that ability.

Welcome to life.
 
This is a common sense approach. Pay attention to the results of your shot, if it doesn't fall look at if it was thick or thin, then make the appropriate adjustments. Why get more complicated than that?
It worked for anyone over the age of 40. Why not now....lol ;)
Here's why. I introduced the idea into this thread that because draw takes better on thicker hits, people miss the vast majority of their cut shots with draw on the undercut side. Some argue that this is due to the cut induced throw. I've been teaching full time for five years now and after watching hundreds of people miss shots like this thick it really looks to me like steering is the issue. This isn't just on draw shots. The same thing happens any time people are cutting an object ball and trying to hold the cue ball for shape.
As I eluded to a post ago. Fundamental flaws in an APA4 game is a given. It's a certainty that their mechanics are breaking down. However, the thread wasn't about mechanics but about what to do about missing a shot when played a given way. The short answer is, adjust your aim.

For a lark I started playing in APA(CPA) again. Being the strongest guy on the team I'm always requested for time out insight. Here's what I've learnt when dealing with bottom end players. You don't look at their feet when they're trying to make one more ball. You also don't explain that they'll need to compensate for the extra swerve that breakdown will have generated because it rained earlier in the day. Sure I could spend the whole pause in the action explaining how their mechanics are likely to break down if they play a shot in the certain way. Instead, you point at the CB and say, "make the tip hit here" and "try and make the CB go here".

Going beyond that is a disservice.
So by 1) Knowing that people universally miss draw shots thick, and 2) The reason behind this tendency, you can skip thousands of mysterious misses along the way, and possibly reach a level of success that surpasses people who haven't figured this out and continue to miss these shots thick for life.
Again, tires have to hit the road eventually. Knowing that the contact physics is going to be different doesn't prepare you for the difference, or all the additional variables that come with the varying amount of draw and the pace it was struck at.

If a player can't figure out compensation, then I'd just write that off to the 'natural selection of pool'. Grasping cause and effect is at the root of our development as a species. Without that ability how does one even learn to pour a glass of water. You don't need to learn the physics to be able to play the game.
So I'm with you to a point. Sometimes problems can be very one dimensional, like if you keep missing a cut shot thin, try to catch more ball. Other times things that seem really one dimensional can be more complex and we have to address the underlying cause. For example if someone isn't getting their cue ball to draw you might say 'hit it lower', but maybe they are addressing the cue ball low but hitting near center, and maybe the reason for that is an elbow drop that lifts their tip, and maybe the reason for that is in their mind they think they need to do something extra to bring the ball back and their brain interprets that as throwing their arm into the shot, and maybe if you understand that and make a point of relaxing, keeping your elbow high, and striving to follow throw the point on the cue ball you are addressing then you will get better results as opposed to simply shouting to yourself 'hit lower!'.
Again, different conversation. This is something that isn't going to be resolved by reading responses on a forum.
 
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People learn in different ways.

For instance, I have enough knowledge of physics and a base understanding that allows me to visualize what is going on based on the numbers and concepts. It took me a while to realize that not everyone has that ability.

Welcome to life.
100%.... completely agree.

While I'm no fool when it comes to physics and numbers I can tell you I have zero reliance on them when I play pool. Decades of situational development have served me very well. We can call my opinion a spin on 'survivor bias' for pool players.
 
I'd venture to say it doesn't save any time at all. In the end the tires have to hit the road. You can type exceedingly helpful responses endlessly here but that insight still has to be applied. Eventually the reader will have to hit the table and unless they by some miracle nail it in the first try. (Some, myself included, will say you haven't learnt anything until you failed at least once.) They'll still need to assess the miss and correct for it. Just like they would have in the first place.

I'm not against practicing reading comprehension online. However, if you're trying to pick of a tangible skill. Physically practicing that skill is leaps and bounds more beneficial with a hands on approach.

Different conversation. If we want to introduce the limitless variables that may also be plaquing the shooter. Then this goes beyond what can be done on a faceless forum. An APA4 has too many problems with their game to allow the "if what" coefficient to be introduced.
I agree with this. I don't think anything written speeds the learning process. One must "do". I think about any shot can be learned quickly. Set up a shot with donuts, and shoot it about 10 times each with every speed and english possible. After about 30 min, all the possibilities will have been played and the player will have experienced the aiming difference on each one, and where the CB goes on each one.
 
I agree with this. I don't think anything written speeds the learning process. One must "do". I think about any shot can be learned quickly. Set up a shot with donuts, and shoot it about 10 times each with every speed and english possible. After about 30 min, all the possibilities will have been played and the player will have experienced the aiming difference on each one, and where the CB goes on each one.

Maybe not for you.

I can learn from books. I can also carry a book with me all the time.

Visualization has been a key form of athletic practice for a long time. What is reading other than a useful visualization tool?

But then there is reading and there is studying. Many people can read, but not as many can study. It's the difference between being able to read Harry Potter and being able to understand a Cormac McCarthy novel. The former demands that you turn pages, the later requires immersion and introspection.
 
I agree with this. I don't think anything written speeds the learning process. One must "do". I think about any shot can be learned quickly. Set up a shot with donuts, and shoot it about 10 times each with every speed and english possible. After about 30 min, all the possibilities will have been played and the player will have experienced the aiming difference on each one, and where the CB goes on each one.
I had a lesson recently where I showed the student how to build his knowledge of cueball reactions in this manner and he said he didn't have the patience for those types of drills and seeing where each spin hits on the second rail. I merely replied, "well you will have plenty of time in the chair to work on your patience if you don't put in the time to learn how the balls behave when struck differently".
 
It worked for anyone over the age of 40. Why not now....lol ;)

As I eluded to a post ago. Fundamental flaws in an APA4 game is a given. It's a certainty that their mechanics are breaking down. However, the thread wasn't about mechanics but about what to do about missing a shot when played a given way. The short answer is, adjust your aim.

For a lark I started playing in APA(CPA) again. Being the strongest guy on the team I'm always requested for time out insight. Here's what I've learnt when dealing with bottom end players. You don't look at their feet when they're trying to make one more ball. You also don't explain that they'll need to compensate for the extra swerve that breakdown will have generated because it rained earlier in the day. Sure I could spend the whole pause in the action explaining how their mechanics are likely to break down if they play a shot in the certain way. Instead, you point at the CB and say, "make the tip hit here" and "try and make the CB go here".

Going beyond that is a disservice.

Again, tires have to hit the road eventually. Knowing that the contact physics is going to be different doesn't prepare you for the difference, or all the additional variables that come with the varying amount of draw and the pace it was struck at.

If a player can't figure out compensation, then I'd just write that off to the 'natural selection of pool'. Grasping cause and effect is at the root of our development as a species. Without that ability how does one even learn to pour a glass of water. You don't need to learn the physics to be able to play the game.

Again, different conversation. This is something that isn't going to be resolved by reading responses on a forum.
There is a super common phenomenon in which people understand intellectually the mistake they are making but are surprised at how hard it is to correct. Draw shots are a great example.

Telling someone to 'hit here' is great if it works. But if they spend years shying away from that spot then at some point why would repeat the same instructions if it isn't working? You are "Mr. If it isn't working change it, simple as that!" Well, in my experience that type of instruction doesn't work so I change it.

Sometimes getting to the reason below why they aren't hitting there helps them 'just hit there'. Sometimes it's mechanical, sometimes it's mental. But you have to clear what is stopping them from getting the results they want. If a zipper is stuck you don't pull harder, you get it on a different track. Brute force of hitting a million balls and just hitting there isn't the only approach.

There is a time for both approaches, and both methodical study and brute force are needed to be great. You can't read your way to feel but you can't feel your way through this game without learning a lot from those who have gone before.

That's my two cents. In the end we both play our own games and teach our own ways.
 
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