Hitting cut shots with draw - why do I keep missing?

Fats_Brown_Lives

Fats_Brown_Lives

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[10/24 Edit -I have enough to move forward from this post and appreciate the helpful thoughts and tips. I'll pay it forward best I can!]

Hi all - first post. Anyone have guidance on how to hit a standard cut shot with normal back draw? I am comfortable hitting cuts and draw shots, but when I combine it - I miss at a frustrating percentage. I've researched it and scoured youtube, but no one seems to have trouble making the object ball or offer any methods different than if I were to hit center or top English.


Any thoughts/help?
 
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bbb said:
just to be the devil's advocate
could the follow imparted to the object ball from the draw on the cue ball
give the impression the ball was hit "thick"?
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It's theoretically possible, but it would only transfer a meaningful amount of follow at nearly full hits, and then the cut angle is too small for the effect to be visible.

pj
chgo
 
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bbb said:
just to be the devil's advocate
could the follow imparted to the object ball from the draw on the cue ball
give the impression the ball was hit "thick"?
Click to expand...
Nah cuz this happens at fairly high speeds too and the effect of transfered spin is just too small. Tinman mentioned it in his post, and I see it a lot too....

Inexperienced players often 'fail at the conceptual level' as Earl likes to say and try to hit a shot that just isn't there. Namely, they visualize more draw taking than is possible at that angle and speed (or at least more than is possible for them and their current cueing ability), so they help the draw take more and get closer to their desired cb path by hitting thick. This leads to the oft uttered, "man, I got perfect shape....too bad I missed."
 
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Fats_Brown_Lives said:
Hi all - first post. Anyone have guidance on how to hit a standard cut shot with normal back draw? I'm a decent player (APA rank 4), and am comfortable hitting cuts and draw shots, but when I combine it - I miss at a frustrating percentage. I've researched it and scoured youtube, but no one seems to have trouble making the object ball or offer any methods different than if I were to hit center or top English.


Any thoughts/help?
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Seems to have left. Too much committee no golden fix.

An APA 4 is _not_ a decent player.
An APA 9 _might_ be a decent player.

How's that for a cut? Maybe it'll draw him back. :unsure:

:p
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Why should "reading" time cut into table time? I do all I want of both.

pj
chgo
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Can you please direct me to the post where I stated the bolded above... ...moving on.

I never said those reading are cutting into their table time. I said that if you took the 'sum' of the time spent researching and added it to the time you'll need to verify that research at the table. You'd be better off in terms of playing ability, if you simply took that combined value and just spent it's equivalent at the table.

You also conveniently ignored the possibility that someone may find less than accurate theory while scratching that research itch.
 
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Texas Carom Club said:
May be as simple as hitting it too slow
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^^^This...

Additionally:
One of the more frequent mistakes is under hitting a touchy draw shot while inadvertently steering. If you still manage to get the CB on the correct aim line after contact. Swerve bites in prior to reaching the OB. That said, most players tend to steer away from the shot (outside english), so if anything that would result in a thinner hit. I'm still guilty of this problem, especially during very humid spells that slow down the tables. Local room owner hates their AC.
 
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The_JV said:
^^^This...

Additionally:
One of the more frequent mistakes is under hitting a touchy draw shot while inadvertently steering. If you still manage to get the CB on the correct aim line after contact. Swerve bites in prior to reaching the OB. That said, most players tend to steer away from the shot (outside english), so if anything that would result in a thinner hit. I'm still guilty of this problem, especially during very humid spells that slow down the tables. Local room owner hates their AC.
Click to expand...
But… but… if I read this I’ll play less…?

pj <- jk
chgo
 
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TLDR: I've found out that when adding power I swing my elbow out causing and angled contact and creating side spin. This sidespin then derails my thin cuts when I add draw.

Hey everyone - Work travel and a toddler has delayed me up from getting a couple dedicated hours to work on this. But I was able to this week and I think we're in much better shape. With this post I got a ton of great feedback, advice, and drills which I absorbed and will share with my team. Thank you very much to everyone that was generous with their time! I've logged the helpful comments for reference.

I believe the larger issue was not isolated to a draw shot itself but adding power to my stroke needed for said draw shots. While I am very comfortable with (and prefer) slow rolling shots for thin cuts, safeties, runs achieved by low action on the CB etc., the increased power I would apply to draw shots has me "outside in". I believe essentially the more power I apply the more I swing out my elbow on my down stroke.

To relate it to golf, swinging over the top/outside in strikes the golf ball at an angle and creating side spin (aka a slice) In pool, this subtle spin did not affect straight shots with draw enough for me to miss, but causes me to hit cut shots thick.

Thinner the cut and longer the shot - the more penalizing the effect.

More to practice on this, but loosening my grip and focusing on keeping my elbow movement linear seems to greatly helped. I look forward to working on the drills, particularly the "mighty X."
 
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Fats_Brown_Lives said:
TLDR: I've found out that when adding power I swing my elbow out causing and angled contact and creating side spin.
Click to expand...
When I swing my elbow out it is generally because I don't trust my shot and want to help the object ball into the pocket. When we are over the ball, because we have made this shot so many times before, we should trust our judgment and just shoot it into the hole with confidence!
 
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maha said:
walk before you run.

start with a straight in shot a couple feet away center ball. and stop shot until you can always make the cue ball truly stop right there.

then go down on the cueball tiny amounts and i mean tiny and do it until you find exactly where it comes back to you and stops. and you can repeat it.

add tiny bits until you can always draw the cueball back straight towards you and know close to where it will stop.

now you can play pool. and have somewhat cueball control.

next go to follow. if you cant do both well adding english is not ready for you. .
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Great advice - see my latest post. I am doing some drills to watch cue ball action with more power. I've found the more power, the more I come off center. Feedback is watching the CB go straight or askew. I think I'll incorporate this into my warmup routine.
 
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Tin Man said:
I'm guessing you're missing thick.

The amount the back spin influences the cue ball direction depends on thickness of hit. On a straight in shot the back spin can bring the cue ball straight back. As the cut angle increases the back spin starts blending with the residual energy which naturally wants to send the cue ball down the tangent line. As a result the cue ball now only comes back at an angle. And as the cut grows thinner than half ball hit there is so much tangent energy left over the influence of the draw diminishes more and more until it does next to nothing. For an example of this try hitting a very thin cut with draw and notice it doesn't 'come back' at all, it still sails down the tangent line with just slight deviation.

Why this matters is that when people hit cut shots with draw they tend to 'steer' and hit too thick, in an effort to help their draw take. See diagram below. If we shoot the 8 ball in with a roll or stun shot we are likely to scratch in the side. To avoid this we must use draw which will allow us to narrowly beat the side pocket. In this situation it is really easy to lose sight of the shot and put so much focus into beating the side that we steer and hit the 8 ball too thick, catching that rail and hanging it up.

As a side note the firmer we shoot a draw shot the longer is slides the tangent line prior to bending away from it, so another issue people have on this shot is shooting too firm with a lackluster draw stroke. The key is a very low tip for a lively draw, struck with a softer finesse stroke.

So while I haven't seen you shoot I'd guess you are shooting too thickly, and potentially too firm and not low enough on the cue ball. If you make a priority in making sure you're cutting the ball enough and double checking that prior to pulling the trigger I think you'll stop steering as often. As for the tip and speed of effective draw shots, that is another thread. Good luck!

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This is an awesome reply thanks! I was absolutely hitting it too thick. I'm going to focus on a better follow through when adding power. See my latest post. I'm noting this information as well.
 
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