Hollywood Billiards and TIGHT Pockets

Jude Rosenstock said:
I mean, I don't bowl but if I kept throwing them into the gutter because it was a "tight lane", I'd leave after one game and never bowl again!
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There you go. I don't know the difference between any lane. If I were throwing gutter balls because the lanes were more difficult, I wouldn't know it. I would just figure I suck - which I do at that game. I hear better players complain about lane conditions, but a lane is a lane is a lane to me. We'll see. We'll talk about it again in 6 months and see how the pool room is doing then.
 
May it's diffrent

Hollywood billiards seems like a diffrent kind of room to me. I've been to a lot of the rooms here in southern cali and HB stands out as diffrent to me. It seems more like a Dave and Busters atmosphere to me. People are not going there paying high table time's for the quality of the table either. Players might, but reg. people are not. They go there for the name, and atmoshere. He can do what he want's with the pockets and I don't think it will hurt the room at all. That place just seems a little different to me as a room and I don't think that much will change. It's more a of a meat market... Maybe I'm wrong, i'm sure someone will tell me that I am.
 
sjm said:
Well, Vagabond, I'd certainly like to be wrong on this particular occasion. My observation over the years suggested a different result was likely, but I wish every poolroom proprietor success. Sometimes, my being wrong isn't such a bad thing, is it? Thanks for your post.
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Hi SJM,
My post was not intended to imply that u were wrong.I am not a kind of guy who is eager to enter into a pissing contest.Infact I agree with u and lots of people do get frustrated with that kind of tables.I was trying to imply that Hollywood Billiards is unique and in my own style I was expressing my fascination with that place.Cheers
Vagabond
 
I constantly think about the same things regarding Hollywood.

About 6 months ago, Ernesto shimmed all the tables downstairs (about 20 in all) to 4" pockest (3 3/4" at the drop). All the tables upstairs were left at 4.5"-ish. Most good players will comment on how tight the tables are but few average / pool players do.

I'm a regular there, and wonder why the 4" pockets don't scare off a lot of C+ and belower players. But then on the nights when I'm just sitting around there talking with the staff, I see them ask customers, "Do you want to play on the tight pocket tables downstairs, or the regular pockets upstairs? It's easier to play upstairs."

Never once have I heard anyone say they'd prefer upstairs, and most of the guys he's asking are just frat ball bangers who go to play a few games and drink some beer. I think that they're not of high enough skill that it really matters--like someone else said before, when they miss they miss by a mile. They like the challenge and they just come for fun anyway.

Oh, and regarding the owner (Jeff) he's not a B+/A player. I'd say he's a B on a good day, otherwise a mid-level C player on most days.

Funny aside: I played Tony Annigoni there at a tournament and he was floored at how tight they were... he even whipped out a ruler in the middle of the tournament to check how big they were!
 
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StevenPWaldon said:
I see them ask customers, "Do you want to play on the tight pocket tables downstairs, or the regular pockets upstairs? It's easier to play upstairs." Never once have I heard anyone say they'd prefer upstairs, and most of the guys he's asking are just frat ball bangers who go to play a few games and drink some beer.
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I think a lot of it is part of the machsimo of playing pool amongst "bangers". They all think they are better than their friends so think that "tight" tables are to their advantage. Plus you have to look at how their games go - 99% of the time they are playing 8 Ball, and following the classic "Make one lucky ball, make one hanging ball, miss, repeat" formula. In this scenario it really makes no difference what they are playing on.

And before we all get too arrogant about this how many of us were never a "Banger" before we learnt how to play better? The first thing I really learnt about Pool when I started taking it seriously was that I had been playing for years without the first idea what the game was all about.

Personally I've played on the Hollywood Billiards tables and did not like it. To my mind 4" is too tight for 9 Ball, as the game forces you to have to play long and hard shots that you can avoid in almost every other form of Pool as in all other games there is a choice of what ball to shoot next.
 
No offense to many of the guys here but for the most part, you're all shooting from the hip. Yes, we all can remember when the house-man put a crowd on the tight pocket table and how we all stood around and laughed at their mishaps, unknowingly trying to hit balls into 4" pockets at 50 mph. One of us may have even looked at our watches and realized it took them 45 minutes to finish the first game. It's easy to refer to this example and assume that the size of the pocket doesn't make a difference. The fact is, pocketing balls is fun. Just hold on to that concept because in reality, it's why we all play the game in the first place.

The success of a poolroom cannot be measured by the success of a single customer or a single night. These things get averaged out and can be examined in many different ways. Of course, it's how much money you make that matters most but how that number is comprised will tell you a little about how to maintain and improve your business.

Now, I'm going to ask all of you to try and think back to the day when you too were a muggle and didn't know anything about draw or follow. Think about how much fun it was to smack the balls around and watch them fly around the table in search of a pocket. Now, we've all had days back then when we stayed a little longer than anticipated. If we remember correctly, those days were undoubtedly on days when things were going well. We were winning and the balls were dropping, "I felt like Paul Newman tonight!" You just had to stay a little longer to play one more game.

That fun-factor is diminished when you tighten up the tables. Now, you may still get the same number of customers throughout the course of a year. But, are they going to stay as long? The average ball banger stays for a little over an hour. I'd say about 1 hour and 20 minutes. If the fun factor is down, there's a pretty good chance they're going to leave at least 10 minutes earlier. That doesn't sound like much but when you draw that out over the course of a year, that's suddenly a significant chunk of business lost.

What's more, what if a portion of your clients happen to frequent other rooms? Then you're in real trouble! It probably won't be a conscious decision they make. They'll just say, "Wow, that time we went to Joe's Poolroom was the best pool I've ever played." If they say something like this, it's not a huge leap for them to suddenly say, "Hey, let's go to Joe's. It's more fun there." Of course they're not going to have accu-stats on their games. They're not going to break out a ruler and check the pockets. All they're going to know and remember is what's fun.

Now, I could be wrong. It might not equal anything but unless you're doing the books at Hollywood, you're really not in position to tell me otherwise. As a player, it's nice to see a room devote itself to its players. I was there last Fall and had a great time and thought the staff was first rate. However, I don't think it's the pockets that draw the players. They'll go if the tables are level and the cloth is nice. Personally, if I were a room owner, I'd put the money toward replacing the cloth a little more often than tightening the pockets. Even though the average banger won't notice cloth either, there's no chance it'll deter them from staying.

Just keep in mind, poolroom business is down overall. For some rooms, 10% is the difference between profit and breaking even. Like I said, I enjoyed every minute I spent at Hollywood and I hope the next time I hit L.A., they're still going strong. However, with business decisions like this, I have to be a little skeptical.
 
I absolutely agree with Jude's well thought out post. I very much doubt that there is any really sound scientific marketing analysis, but it's hard to argue with the "pocketing balls is fun" theory. Hell, we had a very upscale local pool hall with Diamond tables where the rails/pocket angles were cut wrong (tight pockets, deep drop-off, and weird angle where everything jawed) - you could absolutely sense the frustration of medium tier players with the conditions. If players leave even a few minutes early, it can make a big difference to the owner's bottom line.

Of course others may say that the tables make the poorer players stay longer because the games take longer - but I don't buy that - I think the fatigue factor of having the very tight pockets sets in earlier, and outweighs all other factors. JMO
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Now, I could be wrong. It might not equal anything but unless you're doing the books at Hollywood, you're really not in position to tell me otherwise. /QUOTE]

Yup, you are wrong. I don't do the books but I am familiar with the business. Check out www.Hollywoodbilliards.com. if anyone wants more info.
The owner had the old Hollywood Billiards before an earthquake destroyed it.
He built the new one for somewhere around 2 million and it is probably worth at least 3 times that amount now so that is a minimum 4 million profit if he decided to sell which he won't.

This is Hollywood so it isn't the same formula as Bumtown Idaho. On any given night there are Hollywood movie stars and world famous personalities frequenting the place. It is also a sports bar and a lot of the patrons have more disposable income than you will make in your lifetime.

I have never once heard a ballbanger complain about the tight pockets.

They have Hollywood parties there and the income from some of these nights are more than most poolhalls would make in a month.

The owner has some concerns but one of them is not that he is losing customers because the pockets are too tight. LOL

Wayne
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Wayne's right, it's Hollywood. What other pool hall can get away with valet service, lounges areas, private rooms, plasma TVs, 40+ beers on tap and a full bar?

With as many big screen TVs they have, and the top-tier food and bar they make more than enough money. They're not your typical pool hall. In fact Mike, one of the mangers, even recognizes it now as a sports bar more than a serious pool hall. Yes, the equipment is top notch but the money is from sports.

Last week during the NBA Finals you should have seen how packed the place was. Hell, even over the weekend when the Yanks were playing there were tons of people there. Every Sunday morning during football season the place is packed as well, and opens at 9am to accommodate the crowds.

Jeff's making more than enough money.
 
StevenPWaldon said:
Wayne's right, it's Hollywood. What other pool hall can get away with valet service

Jeff's making more than enough money.
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Hi,

I hated the valet service because I am always on the road and I carry every thing I have,in my car.I will be in LA on 8th of July.Because of my very tight schedule I am not sure whether I will be able to make it to Hollywood Billiards.
I love that place.
Vagabond
 
vagabond said:
Hi,

I hated the valet service because I am always on the road and I carry every thing I have,in my car.I will be in LA on 8th of July.Because of my very tight schedule I am not sure whether I will be able to make it to Hollywood Billiards.
I love that place.
Vagabond
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Well just park across the street, in the neighborhood of the 7th Day Adventist church. When the valet is in service, my friends usually park there because they think it's safer than the other areas. However, if you're traveling with *everything* in your car, then you may have to pony up the money and valet for a few bucks. Better safe than sorry.
 
StevenPWaldon said:
Well just park across the street, in the neighborhood of the 7th Day Adventist church. When the valet is in service, my friends usually park there because they think it's safer than the other areas. However, if you're traveling with *everything* in your car, then you may have to pony up the money and valet for a few bucks. Better safe than sorry.
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Hi,
For a nice evening I spend 75 to 90 $ in that place and I do not mind few extra bucks for the Valet.My fear is that valet guys might steal my valubles.Whenever I come there I stay in Hollydayinn Express on Labria between sunset and hollywood Blvd.However, I am going to take your advice.Thanks
 
vagabond said:
Hi,
For a nice evening I spend 75 to 90 $ in that place and I do not mind few extra bucks for the Valet.My fear is that valet guys might steal my valubles.Whenever I come there I stay in Hollydayinn Express on Labria between sunset and hollywood Blvd.However, I am going to take your advice.Thanks
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If the lot isn't packed when you get there, just tell the valet that you will pay him but you want to park your own car, they are usually ok with that.

They did a show of a lot of the hotspots in L.A. where they had a hidden camera inside the car and left money and valuables in the car and then videod something like 19 valets, I heard 19 out of 19 stole things from the car. Of course they all denied it even though they were on video but 1 of them gave back the money. You are probably smart to have that fear. LOL
Wayne
 
Correction wayne, those parties make more money than most poolhalls in about 3 months or more.lol. The tables are not what everyone makes them to be. Sure in the beginning the tables are intimidating for either the serious player or ball banger. But the more you play on them, the more you realize that they play very honest and true. My dad would have NEVER fixed the tables like that if he knew it would change the way you play the game. Yes, the pockets are tight. But are they fair. YES. You can nudge the rail a bit and it still goes. And finally, no, the business is not affected, that is one of the most busy and most profitable poolhalls in California. My house gets on average 5 phone calls per day from private homes and poolhalls to get their pockets, "tight like hollywood" or another poolhall we have fixed like that. I too was skeptical at first and thought they were too tight. But the demand is absolutely overwhelming all over the west coast. Were even going to the east coast to fix tables and shim them up too. The majority of the people seem to like them with a small minority who dislike them. At least in my experience. But what the hell do i know :rolleyes:
 
MexPoolPlyr said:
to fix tables and shim them up too. The majority of the people seem to like them with a small minority who dislike them. At least in my experience. But what the hell do i know :rolleyes:
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As I mentioned earlier in this post, it sounds like someone did a fantastic job shimming them. Nothing worse than tables that have been shimmed improperly and spit out balls that shouldn't.
 
wayne said:
Yup, you are wrong. I don't do the books but I am familiar with the business.
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Wayne, you fail to understand the point I was trying to make. Your "familiarity" is a hip-shot and nothing more. I'm not talking about words like "busy", "light", "good", "bad". I'm talking about statistics, figures, comparisons to last year and last month. A REPORT. We're simply not in a position to make assessments. Unless you're the office manager or above, you simply can't say I'm wrong. In all liklihood, I have more familiarity with the business than you have with their's.

All I can say is I think it's less fun and less fun frequently means leave early. I can't imagine anyone saying, "Yeah, this is only my third time playing and I have to say, I love those tight 4" pockets!" If the majority of your players don't notice, why do it? If they do notice, they probably won't like it. Dude, I was there last fall and the pockets were about 4.5". They're shaving a half inch which is a lot! Trust me, people are going to notice!

BTW, I don't live in Bumtown, Idaho. I live in Manhattan, New York City. Parking here costs about as much as you'd spend on beer in a given night and there isn't a single place on the island that just gives parking away! Valet? Yeah, we call that a taxi. Trust me, Amsterdam Billiards is a comparable room to Hollywood (In fact, I've often compared the two) and the owners would never even remotely consider converting all the tables to 4" pockets. Forget about the potential negative ramifications. What are the financial advantages? You must also understand that changes like these are pretty permenant. If they don't work, you can't simply change them back and your poolroom needs to be set up for both the present and future in mind. Even though he may have a hold of the market today, will that continue if another room opens down the street?

See, in New York City, we have SEVERAL upscale rooms in relative proximity. Competition is a constant. Perhaps LA's billiard market is depleted enough at the moment to allow its participants to do as they choose but if NYC is any indication, that will not always be the case.
 
Jude I find it funny that you can argue Wayne and everyone else's point down into the ground simply because they're not a manager or above. You certainly aren't, and by your own logic your opinion should be just as meaningless.

While you may know the general business of billiards, Hollywood regulars know that specific poolhall better.

Tell you what--I'll ask the managers if they're making more, less, or just as much money now (as compared to before the 4" pockets). That'll shut us all up.
 
StevenPWaldon said:
Jude I find it funny that you can argue Wayne and everyone else's point down into the ground simply because they're not a manager or above. You certainly aren't, and by your own logic your opinion should be just as meaningless.

While you may know the general business of billiards, Hollywood regulars know that specific poolhall better.

Tell you what--I'll ask the managers if they're making more, less, or just as much money now (as compared to before the 4" pockets). That'll shut us all up.
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Actually, I managed a room for a couple of years, have seen daily, weekly, monthly and annual reports. I know how businesses can be in flux. I've actually seen the numbers after eyeball assessments are made. It really is surprising sometimes. Oh and it's not funny. It's called an informed opinion. There's a difference between an eye-ball assessment and reviewing statistical trends. I mean, I even knew the ratio of use between our head-table and our back-table. If I had the luxury of table-placement, I knew which areas of the room would keep a customer playing a little longer than they might normally.

Besides, my point is that tight-pockets will have a subtle impact on business that might get picked up in a long-term report. On top of that, I argue where the positives lie. How will this potentially improve business? Standard pockets are typically 5" wide at the mouth. That's pretty significant when you talk about cutting them down to 4". I mean, as a player, I think it's great but I worry about how it will affect their business.

Call your people and get your info but you're still failing to see where I'm going with this. Listen, I've been playing this game long enough to watch poolrooms come and go. There was a time when there were over 300 pooltables within a mile of where I lived and I watched that number dwindle quickly. These were serious rooms that looked like they weren't going anywhere and they were making money hand over fist. Chelsea Billiards boasted a 1 hour wait. With 53 tables, that's quite a feat!

Sometimes a change of business happens in a subtle decline. Sometimes it's night and day but regardless, you need to look at every ingredient in your formula and determine if it will help or hinder and understand that if it doesn't help, it'll probably hinder. I cannot see how tightening already tight equipment will help. I can see how catering to your serious clients can be beneficial (and it's wonderful that they would do that) but there are other things that can be done. Look, I know that there is a desire to try and be perceived as a "serious place for serious players" and that our business demands it. I know other rooms that thought that way. They're gone. They're all gone. As SJM said, I also hope that I'm wrong. I hope that no matter what Hollywood does that they continue to bring in people and make a fortune. I know that they'll always be a must-visit for me every time I go out there. However, I seriously question this decision and although I may not have the most educated opinion on this forum, it's a little more than a mere table-count assessment. I mean, the real bottom line is, it's not my money and if they close, I'm still playing pool so this is all a mere mental exercise for me. For you, I think it may suck for you.
 
They still have tables upstairs with big pockets. Customers even get a choice when they get there whether they want to play on tables with tight pockets or not. What's the problem?
 
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