Honest question for manual pivot CTE users

cookie man said:
The visuals give you the perception and fixed CB. The perception gives you thick or thin. From there you sweep or pivot into CCB.
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According to Stan, the visuals get your vision center in the proper location to perceive a CCB view with two fixed edges. This is how he defines a "fixed" CB -- a fixed center with two fixed edges. The perception is the fixed CCB. From this point you come in and place your bridge-V left or right of this fixed CCB line and the pivot from there to the final CCB.

So what do you different that allows you to get a different fixed CCB perception from two identical CB-OB setups in two different locations on the table, and using identical visuals for each setup?
 
BC21 said:
I follow Stan's instructions for straight in shots, using a 15-outside and a manual 1/2 tip pivot and it works. This should prove I am doing it correctly. In fact, I set up several of his example shots and can get his exact results on a few of them, even his pre-pivot perception line as seen from the fixed CB center. L On the shots where I follow the same instuctions only to miss, I assume he is tweaking like he says he does in a few videos, moving his alignment a "tick" here or there until his ccb solution matches what looks right to his eyes. I can do that too, but then that defeats the whole system-defined solution.

So can you answer my thread question? It would clear the issue right up.
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The straight in shots prove nothing except you're doing something that allows you to make straight in shots. The process is no different for cut shots so obviously you're not doing it correctly. Duuuuh.
 
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nobcitypool said:
The straight in shots prove nothing except you're doing something that allows you to make straight in shots. The process is no different for cut shots so obviously you're not doing it correctly. Duuuuh.
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Oh I can make cut shots also. The straight in shots allowed me to understand how to do it. And you are correct -- the process is no different. That's why I'm asking this thread question. When the CB is about a foot from the OB and it's an obvious straight in shot, I use a 15 perception w/outside manual pivot and my CCB solution gives me a straight-in shot. In fact, anytime the CB is a foot from the OB, regardless of the shot angle, when I use a 15 perception w/outside I always end up straight in, CCB to center ob. Hence my question.....how can I get a different result if nothing that pertains to the visuals, the perception, or the pivot changes? These are objective steps and I get consistent results if all the variables remain consistent.
 
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Practice These Five Shots Brian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Psy5hOJT0

Place donuts at each QB and OB position.

They all can be made with a QB edge to "A" and a CCB to OB edge perception. Number five is easier with a QB edge to "B" the pivot to cue ball center is not as drastic as the "A"

Each shot will require the cue pivot be brought in closer into the body. Use a manual pivot. You will see what mean.

If your having issues with using this approach place another OB (ghost ball toward the pocket and place a donut where the center of the ghost ball would be) at the OB your pivoting onto. Ignore the ghost ball donut during your perceptions and pivoting. You will notice that after the pivot to CCB you will find you cue tip pointed at center of the ghost ball donut.

This has been my experience.

John :)
 
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!
One Pocket John said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Psy5hOJT0

Place donuts at each QB and OB position.

They all can be made with a QB edge to "A" and a CCB to OB edge perception. Number five is easier with a QB edge to "B" the pivot to cue ball center is not as drastic as the "A"

Each shot will require the cue pivot be brought in closer into the body. Use a manual pivot. You will see what mean.

If your having issues with using this approach place another OB (ghost ball toward the pocket) at the OB your pivoting onto. Ignore the ghost ball during your perceptions and pivoting. You will notice that after the pivot to CCB you will find you cue tip pointed at center ghost ball.

This has been my experience.

John :)
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Thanks, John. I've tried this. I can make it work by doing what Stan says in another video with a straight in. When he gets his CCB solution his eyes tell him it's not quite right so he "tweaks" the solution to match his eyes, saying the eyes lead and the body follows. But tweaking the solution to make it look right isn't supposed to be how it's done.

My fixed center CB perception is exactly the same for each of these shots. In other words, using the same visuals for each shot puts my head/vision at a specific location/perspective needed to see both visuals. This location is exactly the same in reference to the CB and OB relationship for each shot. The reason why is because the CB-OB relationship is exactly the same for each set of balls. So it goes to figure the same visuals on identical sets of balls will provide identical fixed CCB's/perceptions.

I just can't produce different results unless I make my own results. But I do think it's neat when it works.
 
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BC21 said:
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Thanks, John. I've tried this. I can make it work by doing what Stan says in another video with a straight in. When he gets his CCB solution his eyes tell him it's not quite right so he "tweaks" the solution to match his eyes, saying the eyes lead and the body follows. But tweaking the solution to make it look right isn't supposed to be how it's done.

My fixed center CB perception is exactly the same for each of these shots. In other words, using the same visuals for each shot puts my head/vision at a specific location/perspective needed to see both visuals. This location is exactly the same in reference to the CB and OB relationship for each shot. The reason why is because the CB-OB relationship is exactly the same for each set of balls. So it goes to figure the same visuals on identical sets of balls will provide identical fixed CCB's/perceptions.

I just can't produce different results unless I make my own results. But I do think it's neat when it works.
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You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what Stan said. Watch it again.
 
Is that when you are down already?
Wouldn't that mean your elbow will have to move away from your natural stroking line ?

Everything is done while addressing the table. It is in my experience never make a decision while you are in your shooting stance. You will miss.
Once I've determined the perception and pivot (whether manual or sweep), I go straight to center cue ball....
 
BC21 said:
Ok. Good explanation. Now try this experiment: place the CB 2ft from the OB anywhere on the table and use a 15° perception. Once you get a "fixed CCB", after you find that perfect spot to see your two visuals, look straight through that CCB and visualize a line to the OB, noting exactly where it lands on the face of the OB. Now move these two balls to somewhere else on on the table, anywhere, and make sure there's 2ft between the CB and OB again. Use the 15° perception again, and when you get your fixed ccb, look straight through to the OB and note where that line hits just as before. I get the same result each time. Do you? If not, what are you doing differently to get a different result?

Now, if I move the CB closer or farther from the OB I get a different result, meaning my fixed CCB line hits somewhere else on the OB than it did from that 2ft distance. But as long as none of the distances change, and I use the exact same visual references (ETA/CTE), I get the same results.
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I will try this today and formulate a reply. There are times that I've done this and "see the spot" even though I don't look for the spot. I focus on the two lines only.

I did the experiment with CB 2 feet from OB in several locations with 15 Inside and Outside. I am able to see the "point of contact" at all locations. The result are exactly the same for each shot. Before I pulled the trigger, I see the "spot'.
 
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Neil said:
You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what Stan said. Watch it again.
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I found the answer to my question! Thanks for all the replies, but the answer comes from Stan in one of videos that Neil asked me to rewatch. I'm not misrepresenting anything. Stan is saying that your eyes give you the shot line, then your body must follow, tweaking as necessary to ensure you are on the shot line. Then he goes on to say shooting hundreds of shots a day (thousands per week) allows your brain to more or less programs your eyes and body to work together, refining the system. This means refining the exact amount of tweaking needed to make it work consistently. This is why I can't get two different perceptions when using the same visuals on two identical setups at different locations on the table. I am trying to do it objectively with no personal tweaking. I could practice it on hundreds and thousands of shots, tweaking as necessary to make it work, until I program my brain to make the subtle tweaks needed to get a slightly more favorable perception when needed, but I don't have the time to invest.

Watch 2 or 3 minutes here....

https://youtu.be/6Dgsn2xaif0?t=150s
 
BC21 said:
According to Stan, the visuals get your vision center in the proper location to perceive a CCB view with two fixed edges. This is how he defines a "fixed" CB -- a fixed center with two fixed edges. The perception is the fixed CCB. From this point you come in and place your bridge-V left or right of this fixed CCB line and the pivot from there to the final CCB.

So what do you different that allows you to get a different fixed CCB perception from two identical CB-OB setups in two different locations on the table, and using identical visuals for each setup?
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I do nothing. I treat every shot the same.
 
BC21 said:
!

Thanks, John. I've tried this. I can make it work by doing what Stan says in another video with a straight in. When he gets his CCB solution his eyes tell him it's not quite right so he "tweaks" the solution to match his eyes, saying the eyes lead and the body follows. But tweaking the solution to make it look right isn't supposed to be how it's done.

My fixed center CB perception is exactly the same for each of these shots. In other words, using the same visuals for each shot puts my head/vision at a specific location/perspective needed to see both visuals. This location is exactly the same in reference to the CB and OB relationship for each shot. The reason why is because the CB-OB relationship is exactly the same for each set of balls. So it goes to figure the same visuals on identical sets of balls will provide identical fixed CCB's/perceptions.

I just can't produce different results unless I make my own results. But I do think it's neat when it works.
Click to expand...
Post up the shot it works for and the shot it doesn't work for.
 
Michael S said:
Is that when you are down already?
Wouldn't that mean your elbow will have to move away from your natural stroking line ?

Everything is done while addressing the table. It is in my experience never make a decision while you are in your shooting stance. You will miss.
Once I've determined the perception and pivot (whether manual or sweep), I go straight to center cue ball....
Click to expand...

This is a better way of doing. But it's not what Stan shows in his videos. He shows sweeping in to the 1/2 offset and then pivoting to CCB.
 
BC21 said:
I found the answer to my question! Thanks for all the replies, but the answer comes from Stan in one of videos that Neil asked me to rewatch. I'm not misrepresenting anything. Stan is saying that your eyes give you the shot line, then your body must follow, tweaking as necessary to ensure you are on the shot line. Then he goes on to say shooting hundreds of shots a day (thousands per week) allows your brain to more or less programs your eyes and body to work together, refining the system. This means refining the exact amount of tweaking needed to make it work consistently. This is why I can't get two different perceptions when using the same visuals on two identical setups at different locations on the table. I am trying to do it objectively with no personal tweaking. I could practice it on hundreds and thousands of shots, tweaking as necessary to make it work, until I program my brain to make the subtle tweaks needed to get a slightly more favorable perception when needed, but I don't have the time to invest.

Watch 2 or 3 minutes here....

https://youtu.be/6Dgsn2xaif0?t=150s
Click to expand...

"tweaking to ensure you are on the shotline"

The shot line is CCB, so the tweak is to CCB. It's not a tweak guided by your previous aiming experience, it's a tweak to CCB as defined by CTE.
 
BC21 said:
This is a better way of doing. But it's not what Stan shows in his videos. He shows sweeping in to the 1/2 offset and then pivoting to CCB.
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NO. When sweeping you sweep to CCB. When pivoting you start at the 1/2 tip offset.
 
Just face facts BC21. You are off base with what you think is happening and we can all tell by your questions and assumptions that you are spending virtually no time at the table with CTE. Trying to figure it out from your keyboard is not going to work.
 
cookie man said:
Post up the shot it works for and the shot it doesn't work for.
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It would do no good. On the shots where I don't get it to work, proficient CTE users have already programmed their brains to make it work through shot repetition. It's a very fine tweak, one "tick" or so left or right as needed. So I could demonstrate a shot that misses because I'm not tweaking it, and you would fire it right into the hole because you have already, as Stan says, "refined" how you do it.

It doesn't matter, as long as it works for you. It's all about playing better pool, so to each his own in accordance with whatever time one has available for necessary refinement.
 
BC21 said:
I found the answer to my question! Thanks for all the replies, but the answer comes from Stan in one of videos that Neil asked me to rewatch. I'm not misrepresenting anything. Stan is saying that your eyes give you the shot line, then your body must follow, tweaking as necessary to ensure you are on the shot line. Then he goes on to say shooting hundreds of shots a day (thousands per week) allows your brain to more or less programs your eyes and body to work together, refining the system. This means refining the exact amount of tweaking needed to make it work consistently. This is why I can't get two different perceptions when using the same visuals on two identical setups at different locations on the table. I am trying to do it objectively with no personal tweaking. I could practice it on hundreds and thousands of shots, tweaking as necessary to make it work, until I program my brain to make the subtle tweaks needed to get a slightly more favorable perception when needed, but I don't have the time to invest.

Watch 2 or 3 minutes here....

https://youtu.be/6Dgsn2xaif0?t=150s
Click to expand...

Cookie already said it, but you are not understanding exactly what Stan said.

CTE is a VISUAL system. Which is why Pro One should be used once you get the hang of doing it manually. The system gives you the correct shot line with no tweaking necessary. In fact, any visual tweaking will cause a miss.

However, when doing it manually, at times it may be necessary to tweak the amount of manual pivot to get the cue onto the visual shot line. You have to align the cue to the shot line that the three visual lines gave you.

That is all he is saying there. Aligning the cue properly, not tweaking the shot line. Which is exactly why Pro One is the preferred way to use CTE. You don't get an alignment problem.
 
cookie man said:
Just face facts BC21. You are off base with what you think is happening and we can all tell by your questions and assumptions that you are spending virtually no time at the table with CTE. Trying to figure it out from your keyboard is not going to work.
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As I've stated many times already, it is time at the table that causes me to ask questions. When I objectively perform the steps I get consistent results, but the ball only hits the pocket from within a certain angle range, then I must move to the next perception, like a 30, to start hitting the pocket again. It doesn't go center pocket instead, it tracks along the mouth of the pocket from left to right (or right to left) then a thinner perception is needed. This makes perfect sense and is very useful, especially if a player worked with it long enough to refine the method. It's just not as cut and dry as explained here.
 
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