How do we rank the best ever in pool?

hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Listening on the radio about Tom Brady being the best ever, and why, got me thinking about all the discussion (ok, arguements ;) ) about the best ever in pool. Let's just take the modern era, post greenleaf and mosconi, where accu-stats and 9-ball are prevalent. If other sports have stats coming out of their pores, we have the TPA, and who won what. I would think it would be easy... pick a 10 year period, now lets just average out the TPA of all the main tournaments, keeping in mind to count an equal amount for each player, and we can have a solid reason for picking the best ever. How about even making it easier, just do the finals TPA of those tournaments. Now we can see who played the best pool over a period of time.

So now who ends up with the highest TPA over 10 years? Anyone have enough free time to dig up some stats?

Edit - does anyone have another solid repeatable way or finding out the best player, how would you do it not using the TPA and finals appearances?
 
hang-the-9 said:
Listening on the radio about Tom Brady being the best ever, and why, got me thinking about all the discussion (ok, arguements ;) ) about the best ever in pool. Let's just take the modern era, post greenleaf and mosconi, where accu-stats and 9-ball are prevalent. If other sports have stats coming out of their pores, we have the TPA, and who won what. I would think it would be easy... pick a 10 year period, now lets just average out the TPA of all the main tournaments, keeping in mind to count an equal amount for each player, and we can have a solid reason for picking the best ever. How about even making it easier, just do the finals TPA of those tournaments. Now we can see who played the best pool over a period of time.

So now who ends up with the highest TPA over 10 years? Anyone have enough free time to dig up some stats?

Edit - does anyone have another solid repeatable way or finding out the best player, how would you do it not using the TPA and finals appearances?
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When Accu-Stats first developed their rating system in the early 1980's, Mike Sigel consistently rated higher than anyone else, year after year.

Following his period of dominance, I suspect Johnny Archer would have rated the highest during the early to mid 1990's.

More recently, it would probably have been Efren scoring the highest ratings, especially in the latter 1990's and early 2000's.

Pat Fleming (Accu-Stats) is able to review any match he has on DVD and give a TPA rating for each player.
 
I don't think finding the highest averaging TPA is going to get you anywhere. Yes, it will find the individual that most likely has made the least amount of errors. There are certain situations you would have to look at. A good hit on a 3 rail kick vs. making a three rail kick is worth the same thing.

Other things to look at. Missing shape is considered the same thing as a missed ball. However, you don't necessarily leave the table. You can come with a great shot after missing shape and still be at the table.

I know this is going to get into the whole talk about who is the greatest and who dominated over these and those years. It is all opinions based on whose game impressed who.

My opinion would be Efren. He dominated all games, at certain times. He could play 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, rotation, banks, and one pocket with the best at any time and was almost always the favorite. He also brought the idea of the kick safe and began executing safeties and spreading the knowledge of hitting on a certain side of the ball for kicking.

There is a another category about the 526 that Mosconi had run. I know John Schmidt feels that if there was enough money out there that this would be broken. That is difficult to say. Yes he has had 403, and Engert has had 496. Even with those numbers, at any time you could get a bad rolls and have a ball freeze to the cue ball or something strange like that.
 
jay helfert said:
When Accu-Stats first developed their rating system in the early 1980's, Mike Sigel consistently rated higher than anyone else, year after year.

Following his period of dominance, I suspect Johnny Archer would have rated the highest during the early to mid 1990's.

More recently, it would probably have been Efren scoring the highest ratings, especially in the latter 1990's and early 2000's.

Pat Fleming (Accu-Stats) is able to review any match he has on DVD and give a TPA rating for each player.
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I agree Jay. Those are the players that dominated each small era. Mike Sigel never missed in the late 80's, Johnny broke onto the scene with is monster break and rarely missed, and Efren, well the legend continues.
 
Only ERO's said:
snip
I know this is going to get into the whole talk about who is the greatest and who dominated over these and those years. It is all opinions based on whose game impressed who.

My opinion would be Efren. He dominated all games, at certain times. He could play 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, rotation, banks, and one pocket with the best at any time and was almost always the favorite. He also brought the idea of the kick safe and began executing safeties and spreading the knowledge of hitting on a certain side of the ball for kicking.

There is a another category about the 526 that Mosconi had run. I know John Schmidt feels that if there was enough money out there that this would be broken. That is difficult to say. Yes he has had 403, and Engert has had 496. Even with those numbers, at any time you could get a bad rolls and have a ball freeze to the cue ball or something strange like that.
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Well, that's my whole point of going by the only real stat we have, the TPA and tournament finals. Then there is no opinions. Granted there are times where a better TPA lost, or does not count some great shots, but we are not talking about one game or even one match. Over the long haul, stats would track true. When you look at the best QB, you go by QB rating, and SuperBowl games, when you look at pitchers, you look at ERA and games won. Well, pool has TPA and matches won. I think combining the 2 we will get a solid number. Granted pool has many top players that just gamble and don't play in matches where TPA is tracked, well tough titty for that, they should not be counted in the best ever category as there is not way to compare them. Kinda like the other thread about the toughest sport, very tough to compare using science, but sure is a fun discussion :)
 
Only ERO's said:
I agree Jay. Those are the players that dominated each small era. Mike Sigel never missed in the late 80's, Johnny broke onto the scene with is monster break and rarely missed, and Efren, well the legend continues.
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Yea, it sure seems like all that is true, but what are the actuall TPAs and tourney winnings for those guys? I bet someone like Buddy Hall and Nick Varner can come up with a higher TPA over the 80s than Sigel. I could be wrong however. We need to have Upper Deck make up some nice glossy billiard cards with stats on the back or something hehe.
 
hang-the-9 said:
Yea, it sure seems like all that is true, but what are the actuall TPAs and tourney winnings for those guys? I bet someone like Buddy Hall and Nick Varner can come up with a higher TPA over the 80s than Sigel. I could be wrong however. We need to have Upper Deck make up some nice glossy billiard cards with stats on the back or something hehe.
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They were all playing back then and Sigel consistently scored higher. I'm sure Fleming still has all the reports on tournament he worked back then. I used to pore over all of them and read it thoroughly. Sigel was number one overall, that I remember clearly.

One other thing. To date, I think Accu-Stats rating system is still the best for determining which players are shooting the best pool. Like a Batting Average in baseball or ERA for pitchers. It worked!
 
One other thing. To date, I think Accu-Stats rating system is still the best for determining which players are shooting the best pool. Like a Batting Average in baseball or ERA for pitchers. It worked!
And I believe Efren was the first player to shoot over .900 for the whole tournament the year he won at the bike.
 
The Accu-Stat system may very well be the best way that we have to compare players of different eras. But, just like in any sport these guys can't ever play each other in each of their primes. That would effect the way each player was rated due to any mistake being a possible loss of match.

Something to think about
 
There's objective rankings, and then there's subjective rankings which I think take into consideration the objective ones like accu-stats, plus the intangibles like impressions garnered through listening to opinions of knowledgeable players and pro's. Objectively and subjectively Efren must surely rank number one all-time.
 
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