How do you ‘unlearn’ bad habits?

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For me it is not about leaning forward it’s about an aggressive attitude. Barry addressing it as the angle of the rear leg and calls for the weight going forward a little bit.
One of my flaws is to pop up like a cork. I don’t realize until I have done it but post flaw analysis tells me my apprehension led to a backwards inclination. My solution has me asserting an aggressive attitude with every shot. Slightest weight on my bridge hand helps stabilize my 3 point shooting platform. Slightest inclination forward with the rear leg emphasizing my aggressive attitude. Works for me.🤷
Well it's interesting that you took it to mean aggressive attitude but I'm pretty sure he didn't mean it that way. He was referring to balance at the table. Yes, he did say "a little forward," but later on he mentioned it as "leaning forward." A former student of mine who was doing really well, asked me what I thought about him taking a workshop with a snooker instructor. I said, by all means, yes! When he returned, he was leaning forward in a pretty big way. He said he preferred to play that way, and sadly the only thing I could do was to watch his game deteriorate.

I think Imac007 got it right. It's a snooker thing that may have it's origin with the fact that snooker tables are taller.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think Imac007 got it right. It's a snooker thing that may have it's origin with the fact that snooker tables are taller.
Bending from the waist rather than the hip joint seems to be more an American pool stance. Chinese players, like Siming Chen, bend from the hips. Many European players, especially the new crop out of Russia, favor that flat backed rather than stooped posture, it’s easier to get right down on the cue which has become more a stance of choice among younger pros.
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
Well it's interesting that you took it to mean aggressive attitude but I'm pretty sure he didn't mean it that way
Miss understood. Aggressive is my attitude not him. I have come to the same conclusion as Barry Stark, just used a different path to get there.

Barry Stark has worked with Karen Corr. Well in an article she says she started working with him in 1995 and continued through the date of the article which was 2016. She would be an excellent source for differences between the games.
Hopefully a link to Karen article it starts on page 4.
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
I add stability to my base by placing a little weight on the bridge hand. I have witnessed players that could stand as if on a tight rope and shoot well. I go with the numbers guys and besides I couldn’t ride a skateboard:wink:
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Miss understood. Aggressive is my attitude not him. I have come to the same conclusion as Barry Stark, just used a different path to get there.

Barry Stark has worked with Karen Corr. Well in an article she says she started working with him in 1995 and continued through the date of the article which was 2016. She would be an excellent source for differences between the games.
Hopefully a link to Karen article it starts on page 4.
I taught a workshop with Karen. We composed the curriculum together. She agreed that teaching pool fundamentals is different than snooker. I didn't misunderstand you. I know that it was your attitude and not his but it's important to understand the reason why someone teaches something. It's about the message and not the messenger. If you say leaning forward makes you feel aggressive, I really can't relate to any of that. I feel plenty aggressive with the bottome half leaning back and to the right. In fact, not only do I feel aggressive --- I feel perfectly in balance, since it counteracts the forward bend of my upper body. I've been studying this stuff for 30 years. It's not chitchat for me. It's a lifestyle.
 

dquarasr

Registered
Things like the distance between your hip and torso and the cue. How much your body is turned towards the cue. How you're leaning. What your back and front hands look like as you move the cue.
Interesting and thorough! Appreciate your feedback. Here it is from the other side.
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
When I saw the picture on the video it just reminded me of what I had seen. That was the Barry Stark video on YouTube. 96 in his series. Working from my phone (that’s smarter than me) I am link impaired. I was simply trying to show the similarities with the lesson and what Barry liked. I have no opinion but I do know what works for me.
I am interested in any even second hand input as to the differences between snooker and pool. (Chuckles) just had the flashback to Ronnie saying it was put put golf compared to the Masters.😯
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'd have trouble with a bridge that long.

pj <- not an instructor
chgo
I agree. That is a very long bridge especially if you are having trouble hitting where you want on the cue ball.

I'm curious, how long is that cue stick?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Bob and Patrick: I'll try shortening my bridge to around 8". Bob: 58". Maybe the cue looks long because I'm only 5'5".

Fran: Yes, left-eye dominant.

I appreciate all the feedback!
In order to shorten your bridge and maintain a good stance you’ll need to move both hands forward on the cue - so your grip (back) hand is closer to the front of the wrap.

And of course keep the tip near the cue ball at address (don’t move the cue back; move your stance forward).

pj
chgo
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks, Fran. Here are two shots from head-on (hope I did this correctly; I'm new to youtube, just created a channel). In the first, I hit the CB slightly left of intended impact point, imparting unwanted left spin. The first shot reminded me to relax my forearm and grip; the second one went pretty darned straight, but I still see a *very* slight elbow out at the end of the stroke. Lemme know if you agree.

I like to think that since I posted above, I have (mostly) corrected my "steering" elbow coming out to my right. Please let me know what you think. I'm still very much a work in progress. Advise if you think it will be worth taking a video in profile (it's hard to set up in my room, though.)

Looking forward to informed feedback!

fran
in this video it looks to me he has the cue under his RIGHT eye
what did you see to ask him if he was LEFT eye dominant??
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
fran
in this video it looks to me he has the cue under his RIGHT eye
what did you see to ask him if he was LEFT eye dominant??
LOL, pretty good, right? I was suspicious of it in the front view but the side view pretty much confirmed it for me, but there is always a chance I could be wrong, which is why I asked him first. I'll explain in my response to him.
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting and thorough! Appreciate your feedback. Here it is from the other side.
First I want to congratulate you on the hard work and great job you did on your stance. The more you can face the table, the easier it is on your body and neck, as opposed to facing your cue, which forces a slight torso and neck twist to where you would be looking somewhat over your shoulder to view the shot.

But keep in mind, that this particular stance you're using now does favor the dominant hand and eye to be the same, because when you face the table more, your torso, particularly your hip, comes closer to the line of the shot --- which is the line where your cue must travel. With a right-eyed and right hand dominant player, there is a comfortable space between the cue and the torso, which allows for unobstructed stroking.

With a cross-dominant eyed player, this position at the table becomes more difficult as you (usually without realizing it) pull your left eye closer to the line of the shot. It also pulls your torso along with it and your torso and cue then become very close to each other. Once they get too close, the path of the cue can become obstructed by the torso and then an elbow chicken wing situation starts to occur. Usually it's there at address but sometimes the elbow moves out at the point of the obstruction during the stroke.

I think that this is why, in your case, that some shots are perfect and some are slightly off. There's very little margin for error with this type of stance for a cross-dominant eyed player. Facing your cue just a hair more might provide that margin of error for you and open up the space between your torso and cue just a bit and allow you to be more consistent. You will also have to adjust your feet a hair as well to accommodate facing your cue a little more. Stance adjustments are made with the entire body and not just one body part.

Remember to make your adjustments in tiny increments. Start small. You've already done the lion's share of the work. You're tweaking your stance now.
 
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gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
In order to shorten your bridge and maintain a good stance you’ll need to move both hands forward on the cue - so your grip (back) hand is closer to the front of the wrap.

And of course keep the tip near the cue ball at address (don’t move the cue back; move your stance forward).

pj
chgo
Watching Barry Stark in This coaching session is well worth the time. Session one of three. Pure gold or platinum.
 

dquarasr

Registered
Again, thanks for all the replies.

I've already been watching the Barry Stark videos, having watched 1-20 and a few other selected topics. Yes, I am aware that moving the bridge hand forward requires also moving the rear hand forward. Thanks for the tip.

In spite of what the video may show, my vision center is *just* to the left of the bridge of my nose, hence, when I am lined up correctly, the cue is somewhere between my left eye and the center of my nose, slightly closer to my nose than my eye. At least that's when I line up correctly. If you look back at the first video I posted with two shots showing me straight on from the first, the first shot spun the CB, but the cue was aligned slightly RIGHT of my nose. The second shot, which returned straight back to the cue and had no spin, the cue is aligned just left of my nose, which is where it should be based on my vision center. So, more work to ensure I'm more consistently lined up with my vision center.

Fran, I had started out with a stance even more open than in these videos. I have slowly started to move my left foot forward. Currently my left foot is about 1/2 a foot (literally!) forward of my right foot. This seems comfortable and affords a good view of the shot yet (most shots) allows my swing to be unobstructed by my torso. On some shots I notice my practice swings touch my chest. These are usually on cut shots, which tells me my stance position is wrong, and I am compensating by adjusting my shoulder and arm. In such cases I try to stand up, back up, then re-approach the table. I'll try moving my left foot forward incrementally until I've gone too far. I just hope I can determine that point. :)

I have also noticed that when lining up my shot, it really helps me to step back from the shot, then step FORWARD into the shot, keeping my eye totally focused on the OB (actually, the CB "ghost"), never looking at the CB until I have positioned my feet. This has helped a whole bunch. I am not yet practiced enough to just position my feet and get down; the longer view from a step away from the table, then stepping forward, really helps. Sometimes this is difficult to envision on cut shots, which is why sometimes my chest is in the way.

One thing I continue to grapple with is my current nemesis shot, a 45-degree cut where the OB is about 1-2" away from the long rail and CB is in the middle of the table. I almost always hit these too thick because I have a tendency to look at the OB, rather than the position of the ghost. I am relatively sure it's not because of throw. When I miss thick I notice it's because my contact point is too thick. This happens on both sides of the table.

But this problem is aim and positioning related, and I don't think it's stance, or stroke related. I simply need to hit a whole bunch more of these to ensure I step into these shots aligned more correctly.

The feedback I am receiving here is invaluable, most of which is validating what I am finding on my own. I am using resources such as videos, Mark Wilson's book, and what I read here to apply these concepts to my physique and physical limitations. Now I understand why Mark says it takes 10,000 hours!!!!
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The shot above that you struggle with
Try cutting the object ball parralel to the long rail
Once you get a feel for that it will make pocketing the ball easier
You also can try aiming for the facing not the pocket
I am not an instructor but that has helped me in making that shot
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Again, thanks for all the replies.

I've already been watching the Barry Stark videos, having watched 1-20 and a few other selected topics. Yes, I am aware that moving the bridge hand forward requires also moving the rear hand forward. Thanks for the tip.

In spite of what the video may show, my vision center is *just* to the left of the bridge of my nose, hence, when I am lined up correctly, the cue is somewhere between my left eye and the center of my nose, slightly closer to my nose than my eye. At least that's when I line up correctly. If you look back at the first video I posted with two shots showing me straight on from the first, the first shot spun the CB, but the cue was aligned slightly RIGHT of my nose. The second shot, which returned straight back to the cue and had no spin, the cue is aligned just left of my nose, which is where it should be based on my vision center. So, more work to ensure I'm more consistently lined up with my vision center.

Fran, I had started out with a stance even more open than in these videos. I have slowly started to move my left foot forward. Currently my left foot is about 1/2 a foot (literally!) forward of my right foot. This seems comfortable and affords a good view of the shot yet (most shots) allows my swing to be unobstructed by my torso. On some shots I notice my practice swings touch my chest. These are usually on cut shots, which tells me my stance position is wrong, and I am compensating by adjusting my shoulder and arm. In such cases I try to stand up, back up, then re-approach the table. I'll try moving my left foot forward incrementally until I've gone too far. I just hope I can determine that point. :)

I have also noticed that when lining up my shot, it really helps me to step back from the shot, then step FORWARD into the shot, keeping my eye totally focused on the OB (actually, the CB "ghost"), never looking at the CB until I have positioned my feet. This has helped a whole bunch. I am not yet practiced enough to just position my feet and get down; the longer view from a step away from the table, then stepping forward, really helps. Sometimes this is difficult to envision on cut shots, which is why sometimes my chest is in the way.

One thing I continue to grapple with is my current nemesis shot, a 45-degree cut where the OB is about 1-2" away from the long rail and CB is in the middle of the table. I almost always hit these too thick because I have a tendency to look at the OB, rather than the position of the ghost. I am relatively sure it's not because of throw. When I miss thick I notice it's because my contact point is too thick. This happens on both sides of the table.

But this problem is aim and positioning related, and I don't think it's stance, or stroke related. I simply need to hit a whole bunch more of these to ensure I step into these shots aligned more correctly.

The feedback I am receiving here is invaluable, most of which is validating what I am finding on my own. I am using resources such as videos, Mark Wilson's book, and what I read here to apply these concepts to my physique and physical limitations. Now I understand why Mark says it takes 10,000 hours!!!!
Great observations, and I do agree that stepping into the shot from behind is a great way to go. It is a bit tricky though, as most players will start out straddling the line of the shot. Somehow you have to make the transition into a proper stance from that point as you step forward. You have to figure out a methodology for yourself of getting there that works for you.

Remember: As you approach the shot from behind, it's important not to take your eye off it. If you look down at what's happening with your feet, you'll lose the line. You have to find a way to feel your way forward into position. Instructor Jerry Briesath recommends something he calls 'chin lock,' where he locks his chin into position over the line of the shot and then steps forward into the shot.
 
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Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As you approach the shot from behind, it's important not to take your eye off it.
Another good practice is to ”try the shot on and see how it fits”.
First plan the table and settle on a shot and what it needs.
Without fine tuning the aim get into position, a test stance.
This is when you can determine your grip and bridge length, bridge and foot placement.
Now get up.
Find your aim line. Keep your grip in place.
Approach the final line straight on.
Put both your head and cue on line with the grip in the pre-determined spot. No bridge yet.
Holding both in place you now have two references for alignment.
If you inadvertently move the cue while getting down provided you have your head in place you can return the cue to the aim line.
I ground my tip so if I need to realign slightly my tip acts as a pivot point for realignment.
Conversely if, you happen to look down at a foot the grounded cue gives you a re-alignment reference.
Just make sure you are seeing as much of the rounded shaft on the right as the left.
Usually once you have your standing stance in place beside the cue, you should feel like you could play the shot one handed.
That requires your entire arm from the shoulder to the grip to be on line.
Your foot placement, in respect to square, as described seems right.
If you bend the left knee forward your hip plane goes ahead and pushes back on the right hip, bracing the leg.
Folding from the hips should take the right shoulder directly down towards the cue and allow the head to move forward down the cue line.
Go down in stages.
About half way down the shot should be feeling more and more like you could shoot one handed.
Ready yourself to add the bridge to provide another stabilizing point allowing the tip to be eventually lifted from the bed.
Gradually lower more as you test the stroke is straight, and the shoulder stays over the cue.
Bending from the hips keeps the back straight.
The sense is that you are still folding ahead and down.
The forward lowering shifts weight forward and the bridge arm pronates and flattens to the bed, bending at the elbow if needed.
The table supports the shifted weight.
The rehearsed original “trial stance” should be a fit for the final version.

These elements are important to work on in practice and in mental rehearsals when not at the table.
During competitive play your focus needs to be on achieving a result, not on technique.
The trio of approach the shot on line, cue straight and stay down are game keys. All outward focused.
 
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