How do you compensate for squirt and throw?

[Colin Colenso]

Colin, I'm looking forward to your post on this.

Although "feel" is most important, reference points for shots are key, too.

And memory of all this stuff is not to be disregarded either.

The more I get into this, the more I realize that knowledge of one's cue, the table, the balls, and so on, as well as one's state of mind when shooting, are of primary importance! LOL

Thanks for your most helpful ideas!

Flex

One problem with most methods is they do not take into account distance between CB and OB.

Try that shot you were practicing from 6 feet away and then try the same alignment from 6 inches away. The CB can vary a lot.

People can adjust by feel and learn the alignment of a range of shots using english, but can they make the all longer harder pots just as accurately playing with english. Very rarely.

Imagine if you can pot any shot on the table equally well with any degree of english. That opens up a whole new range of positional options.

At the moment, the longer shots I am making about 80% as well with english, the shorter shots are much higher percentage as the degree of accuracy is not so crucial.

I believe I can increase this to 95%+ with more knowledge of adjustments for my system.

A couple of observations worth noting at this point:
1. My pivot point is about 8". When playing with the CB about 6" from the OB, I need to lengthen the bridge to about 20" for the squirt to cancel the Spin Induced Throw (SIT). When balls are 5 feet apart, the bridge length comes in to close to my pivot point, about 10". This results in less squirt but over the longer distance it is the right amount to cancel out the SIT.

All my shots are lined up center ball, so it is always the same alignment, just a change in bridge length and then back hand pivoting to apply the english required.

2. An important factor is swiping (roll and tuck). If the cue swipes across to create the english there will be less squirt, and hence a longer bridge length is required. This I've found to be not desirable as on shorter shots my bridge length is already longer than I'd want it to be.

So when you apply the side, try to cue straight through rather than swiping across.

Play some 3/4 ball angle shots from 1 foot, 3 foot and 5 foot, with bridge lengths of 18", 14" and 10" respectively. Play a few plain ball shots to warm up so you have the line. Then try the BHE with those bridge lengths. Make sure to keep the bridge hand firm one you have established the line.

Let me know your results.

 

[third_i]

third_i, are you saying sometimes you aim like 2 inches left or right of the pocket?

well, technically yes and no. I aim to hit in the pocket where I want it(I have no problem "cheating the pocket") but if you use angle lines(geometry) then yes 2-3" or more in some cases using extreme english with the object ball somewhat distant from the pocket. I hope that answered your question.

 

[Flex]

People can adjust by feel and learn the alignment of a range of shots using english, but can they make the all longer harder pots just as accurately playing with english. Very rarely.

Imagine if you can pot any shot on the table equally well with any degree of english. That opens up a whole new range of positional options.

At the moment, the longer shots I am making about 80% as well with english, the shorter shots are much higher percentage as the degree of accuracy is not so crucial.

There is another factor that needs to be considered as well: how firmly the cue ball is hit. In The Advanced Pro Book, Bob Henning suggests that whenever possible during a game to take a firm hit with a full stroke to do so, as it will boost your confidence. I've found that to be excellent advice, and so when I shoot the power shots with english and am practicing them, I always do so with a full, powerful stroke. That stroke obviously squirts the cue ball more, but it's probably the most consistent shot I have. It's a powerful stroke, definitely less than a break shot, but it's really strong. That gives me a sort of absolute shot, and it's one where feel doesn't really come into play. Once I find out how to shoot a shot with back hand english and a powerful stroke all built in, then I work backward and try to finesse the shot.

I hope to be able to try out your suggestions perhaps today, and will let you know what happened.

Cheers!

Flex

 

[Colin Colenso]

There is another factor that needs to be considered as well: how firmly the cue ball is hit. In The Advanced Pro Book, Bob Henning suggests that whenever possible during a game to take a firm hit with a full stroke to do so, as it will boost your confidence. I've found that to be excellent advice, and so when I shoot the power shots with english and am practicing them, I always do so with a full, powerful stroke. That stroke obviously squirts the cue ball more, but it's probably the most consistent shot I have. It's a powerful stroke, definitely less than a break shot, but it's really strong. That gives me a sort of absolute shot, and it's one where feel doesn't really come into play. Once I find out how to shoot a shot with back hand english and a powerful stroke all built in, then I work backward and try to finesse the shot.

I hope to be able to try out your suggestions perhaps today, and will let you know what happened.

Cheers!

Flex

I also like shooting with power. It reduces the throw by up to one pocket width on certain shots. It also reduces Spin Induced Throw (SIT).

As for speed increasing squirt, the commonly accepted models on squirt deny this. I postulated an additional mechanism of squirt which I called Surface Property Induced Deflection, which provided a possible mechanism to explain many people's observation that more speed = greater squirt.

But it could be that the reduction in SIT with speed largely explains the perception of increased squirt with speed.

I still haven't done enough testing to be sure, or to give any measurements, but the increase in squirt with speed is not as significant as I had imagined, though on long shots with high speed it is noticeable. I'm yet to factor this into my aiming system. Needs more testing to establish for certain and to quantify.

 

[CaptainJR]

I just picked a shot that I think you could be talking about. Hopefully you didn't leave yourself this. Lots of choices here and I the choice for me would depend a lot on the situation.


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$5 9 - ball game, take your shot (good practice under the gun) hard with high right or firm with low left.

Big Pocketed table - I'd make the shot leaving myself a perfect angle for the long bank. (I make these on big pocket tables)

Semi final match at hill hill or double shimmed pocket, you need to figure something else out. Maybe double bank the 8 to the top middle diamond.

 

[Cornerman]

Good advise. I also try real hard not to leave myself shots that require a lot of power or a lot of side spin.
Steve

I hate this answer. As an instructor and a player, when is the last time you played a set that didn't require you to use a lot of power or a lot of side spin? What do you do when you are faced with it, say, someone left you that particular shot.

You have to shoot with power or a lot of side quite often, especially in 9-ball. Saying things like "I try not to leave myself shots that require...." is no help and is misleading.

Can you imagine if someone asked "how do you shoot out of a sand bunker" and an instructor answers "I try not to leave myself in the sand or the rough, or any other tough shot on the golf course."

The game is full of sandtraps. How we tackle them is what makes the difference between players.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

Experence with the shots is the best teacher, and lots of practice.

Easier said than done. What if the person is struggling with these shots? Where is the experience going to come from? (Hint: a person asked for some help).

The best teacher is a teacher.

Fred

 

[CaptainJR]

Easier said than done. What if the person is struggling with these shots? Where is the experience going to come from? (Hint: a person asked for some help).

The best teacher is a teacher.

Fred

Your right, the guy ask for help. It is a tough one though. You combine high speed and a lot of side spin, your asking for trouble.

One thing that just crossed my mind. I know I think about this when the situation comes up. We are talking about compensating. Shooting hard causes more deflection but reduces throw. Extreme english increases throw and deflection. As far as this question of secrets, wouldn't inside english help counteract speed deflection? In other words if you do happen to have a choice of inside or outside english, would you have to compensate less using inside?

 

[JoeyInCali]

I shorten my bridge and tighten it a little when using side spin on 4-diamond distance shots.

 

[moosepool]

Just takes a little practice to be able to compensate for that kind of shot. I don't really think there is a magic formula and if you try use something like that you might end up screwing yourself up worse than you were to begin with. I practice them at least once a week just in case one comes up in a game (try to avoid it if at all possible). All I do is set up the cue ball and object ball dead straight into the pocket on opposite sides of the table. I usually just use the second diamond for a reference point. I then stroke the ball with full outside english and pocket the ball leaving the cue ball sitting there spinning. If you leave the cue ball there stopped dead spinning where the object ball is you are hitting them pretty good. I do some with full left and some with full right. I also try to use different speeds of stroke because that plays a big part in the amount of deflection you will get as well as the throw. Try it out. You should be able to get it down with 15 to 30 minutes of practice depending on your skill level. Then just continue to do them once a week for 10 minutes or so and you should retain it. Hope that helps.

 

[Rod]

If you have to shoot an object ball with a power stroke while using english, how do you compensate for squirt and deflecton and throw all at once? What do you do to pot the ball and get shape? Do you have any special aiming techniques for this sort of shot?

Flex

I suggest we make this simple. Having said that a book could be written on this subject alone. In the long run it may serve to confuse people even more but for some it would help.

What is deflection is that just another word for squirt? Given the context of the question, shooting it firm, I don't compensate for throw. Why should I? Oh, I know you analytical ones will argue that 1/1000th of an inch. I’m keeping this simple and throw really isn’t a factor on a firm shot. There are way more important things to consider than this tiny fraction.

I think the first question should be, how do you compensate for squirt? I choose a slightly different aim line, to the right using left English.

What do you do to pot the ball and get shape?
I pot the ball using an aim line/point related to ball distance/angle with the amount speed needed to reach my pre-determined destination.

Do you have any special aiming techniques for this sort of shot?
Yes but putting these lines in a small area isn’t easy or accurate. I aim slightly more to the right using left english determined by c/b to o/b distance. Lines A,B,C and D are c/b to o/b distance, not the actual c/b angle. I suspect most will aim slightly more to the right on this type of shot. At a close range, like point A little if any compensation is needed, for me. As the distance and or english increases then there is a little more compensation. Your mileage may vary and so does mine these days because I don’t play near enough.

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This leads to something more important. When you compensate or shoot any shot you base your feedback by c/b travel with an excellent stroke and hitting where you aim. If your stroke is poor then you’re just adding variables to variables. As shot difficulty increases fundamentals often deteriorates at a rapid pace.

As an example, you play to position A, no problem, not much is needed other than a good med soft stroke. It’s within your comfort zone and you expect to get reasonable position.


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This next one however is struck firm to get whitey around for position.

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In an attempt to juice up the ball, fundamentals take it in the shorts. You mind goes somewhere to another planet perhaps. Instead of a smooth execution as in the prior example it’s an all out lunge, or whatever. Even if you hit the pocket, maybe on the thin side, whitey doesn’t even get close to the original plan.

I think it’s important to know how much compensation is needed but it doesn’t mean didley if you can’t hit there. I know what stroke I need for most shots. If I execute, good things usually happen. If I failed then I got what I deserved. More important, is I learn from a failed attempt.

Rod

 

[Flex]

One problem with most methods is they do not take into account distance between CB and OB.

Try that shot you were practicing from 6 feet away and then try the same alignment from 6 inches away. The CB can vary a lot.

People can adjust by feel and learn the alignment of a range of shots using english, but can they make the all longer harder pots just as accurately playing with english. Very rarely.

Imagine if you can pot any shot on the table equally well with any degree of english. That opens up a whole new range of positional options.

At the moment, the longer shots I am making about 80% as well with english, the shorter shots are much higher percentage as the degree of accuracy is not so crucial.

I believe I can increase this to 95%+ with more knowledge of adjustments for my system.

A couple of observations worth noting at this point:
1. My pivot point is about 8". When playing with the CB about 6" from the OB, I need to lengthen the bridge to about 20" for the squirt to cancel the Spin Induced Throw (SIT). When balls are 5 feet apart, the bridge length comes in to close to my pivot point, about 10". This results in less squirt but over the longer distance it is the right amount to cancel out the SIT.

All my shots are lined up center ball, so it is always the same alignment, just a change in bridge length and then back hand pivoting to apply the english required.

2. An important factor is swiping (roll and tuck). If the cue swipes across to create the english there will be less squirt, and hence a longer bridge length is required. This I've found to be not desirable as on shorter shots my bridge length is already longer than I'd want it to be.

So when you apply the side, try to cue straight through rather than swiping across.

Play some 3/4 ball angle shots from 1 foot, 3 foot and 5 foot, with bridge lengths of 18", 14" and 10" respectively. Play a few plain ball shots to warm up so you have the line. Then try the BHE with those bridge lengths. Make sure to keep the bridge hand firm one you have established the line.

Let me know your results.

Well, I spent several hours today finding out about my shaft, how it squirts, and so on.

Here are the results of my tests.

First of all, all the shots were made with a very strong controlled shot. By very strong I mean that if you were to shoot the cue ball up and down table from short rail to short rail, then the cue ball will go 4 to 4 1/2 table lengths back and forth. A strong shot, no doubt about it. Shooting ike that basically kills swerve on the table, and throw is minimized or non-existent, I believe.

My shaft was made for me by Ed Young (Chicago) and has a 13mm tip, and is VERY stiff. No pro taper, just a long gradual taper. It's very squirty too.

First thing was finding the pivot point for the shaft when the distance from the cue ball to the object ball varied.

Here were my findings, after multiple shots at each distance to make sure I got no flukes.

1/2 diamond 17 inch pivot point
1 diamond 17 inch pivot point
2 diamonds 13 inch pivot point
3 diamonds 8 inch pivot point
4 diamonds 7 inch pivot point
5 diamonds 6 inch pivot point

Then I shot 3/4 ball shots. Here are the results.

1 diamond 12 inch pivot pint
2 diamonds 9 inch pivot piont
2 1/2 diamonds 9 inch pivot point
3 diamonds 9 inch pivot point
4 diamonds 5 inch pivot point, with top english, both inside and outside
4 diamonds 9 inch pivot point, with bottom english, both inside and outside

Interesting, huh?

Then I shot 1/2 ball shots. Here are the results.

1 diamond 7 inch pivot point --- wierd
2 diamonds 10 inch pivot point
3 diamonds 6 inch pivot point, wierd again
4 diamonds 6 inch pivot point, with top english, inside and outside, etc.
4 diamonds 6 inch pivot point, with bottom english, inside and outside, HOWEVER: to make the ball pot with this long draw shot, I needed to jack the cue up about 15 degrees, probably getting a bit of a jump.

So there you have it...

Was I in stroke? You better believe it....

Colin, what think ye?

Flex

 

[Colin Colenso]

Well, I spent several hours today finding out about my shaft, how it squirts, and so on.

Here are the results of my tests.

First of all, all the shots were made with a very strong controlled shot. By very strong I mean that if you were to shoot the cue ball up and down table from short rail to short rail, then the cue ball will go 4 to 4 1/2 table lengths back and forth. A strong shot, no doubt about it. Shooting ike that basically kills swerve on the table, and throw is minimized or non-existent, I believe.

My shaft was made for me by Ed Young (Chicago) and has a 13mm tip, and is VERY stiff. No pro taper, just a long gradual taper. It's very squirty too.

First thing was finding the pivot point for the shaft when the distance from the cue ball to the object ball varied.

Here were my findings, after multiple shots at each distance to make sure I got no flukes.

1/2 diamond 17 inch pivot point
1 diamond 17 inch pivot point
2 diamonds 13 inch pivot point
3 diamonds 8 inch pivot point
4 diamonds 7 inch pivot point
5 diamonds 6 inch pivot point

Then I shot 3/4 ball shots. Here are the results.

1 diamond 12 inch pivot pint
2 diamonds 9 inch pivot piont
2 1/2 diamonds 9 inch pivot point
3 diamonds 9 inch pivot point
4 diamonds 5 inch pivot point, with top english, both inside and outside
4 diamonds 9 inch pivot point, with bottom english, both inside and outside

Interesting, huh?

Then I shot 1/2 ball shots. Here are the results.

1 diamond 7 inch pivot point --- wierd
2 diamonds 10 inch pivot point
3 diamonds 6 inch pivot point, wierd again
4 diamonds 6 inch pivot point, with top english, inside and outside, etc.
4 diamonds 6 inch pivot point, with bottom english, inside and outside, HOWEVER: to make the ball pot with this long draw shot, I needed to jack the cue up about 15 degrees, probably getting a bit of a jump.

So there you have it...

Was I in stroke? You better believe it....

Colin, what think ye?

Flex

Flex,
Interesting results! Especially the variation with pot angle and top v bottom spin.

Seems most the data basically confirms the shortening of bridge length with distance between balls. Though there were a few anomolies, and not quite linear progression.

The system needs a bit of work to sort out all the variables. But I think the hard work could be very worthwhile once you can accurately predict a way to aim on any shot angle, speed, length, spin etc. and simply aligning center ball and adjusting bridge length.

Thanks for trying it out and giving some thought provoking feedback!

Colin

 

[cuetechasaurus]

If you have a solid and straight stroke, you can learn how to compensate for throw/deflection very quickly. There really is no consistent system to rely on. You just need to learn how to aim, line up, and stroke properly.

 

[Flex]

Flex,
Interesting results! Especially the variation with pot angle and top v bottom spin.

Seems most the data basically confirms the shortening of bridge length with distance between balls. Though there were a few anomolies, and not quite linear progression.

The system needs a bit of work to sort out all the variables. But I think the hard work could be very worthwhile once you can accurately predict a way to aim on any shot angle, speed, length, spin etc. and simply aligning center ball and adjusting bridge length.

Thanks for trying it out and giving some thought provoking feedback!

Colin

One of the most interesting things I noted was in shooting the 3/4 ball shots that the power stroke potted the ball with authority as expected, and really smacked the ball in the pocket, and the cue ball came off the rails with english in a very convincing if not quick way. In other words, those shots produced very predictable results, even with the big stroke. Most of the cue ball's energy is sapped upon hitting the object ball, but the spin continues, and moves the ball around nicely.

Figuring out that alone was worth all the trouble. Those shots no longer give me pause.

I think the top vs. bottom english shots at 4 diamonds or so and the different ways needed to pot the ball when shooting the bottom english shots (i.e., jacking up a bit) is huge too.

Thanks for the encouragement!

Flex

 

[Flex]

If you have a solid and straight stroke, you can learn how to compensate for throw/deflection very quickly. There really is no consistent system to rely on. You just need to learn how to aim, line up, and stroke properly.

That may well be the case. However, change cues or shafts and you better get ready for some major compensation issues.

Shooting these shots with a Predator shaft (I have one...) is something quite different.

After I figure out how best to make this all work consistently with my Ed Young shaft, I'll work on doing it with the Predator, modified Black-Dot shafts and others...

I know that these results will differ depending on the speed of the table, and at lower speeds throw and swerve will come into play. By the way, this attempt at systematizing some of these shots has REALLY helped me pot some of those toughie shots consistently. Definitely worth the trouble.

Flex

 

[sonia]

Got A Migraine Reading The Post

I find my aiming point, get down and fire it in the hole. 40 plus years of practice and playing, I guess subconsciously, I know how to hit it. I do not think about throw, squirt, swerve, or anything like that when I'm shooting. I may not hit them all, but I get a pretty good percentage of them. You seem to be looking for an answer that no one can provide.
"Take the ghost ball spot, shift two degrees left if you are putting 1.5 tips of left english, and then back half a degree if you have a "low deflection" shaft, but only if you are stroking to have 18mph speed on the cue at impact."
There are too many variables to consider to give a proper answer to that question. You just have to learn how the cue ball is going to react to different strokes. There is no black and white method to it. You may get a lot of opinions on this thread...but I don't think anyone is going to be able to tell you how to aim.
JMHO
Steve

GHOST BALL SPOT? SHIFT TWO DEGREES? HALF A DEGREE? BACK HALF A DEGREE? 18 MPH SPEED? PERCENTAGE OF SHOTS MADE? NO BLACK AND WHITE METHOD? NO ONE IS ABLE TO TELL ANY ONE HOW TO AIM?

 

[Flex]

GHOST BALL SPOT? SHIFT TWO DEGREES? HALF A DEGREE? BACK HALF A DEGREE? 18 MPH SPEED? PERCENTAGE OF SHOTS MADE? NO BLACK AND WHITE METHOD? NO ONE IS ABLE TO TELL ANY ONE HOW TO AIM?

Nice response, Sonia. A question for you: How would you aim and shoot this shot? The object ball is 1/2 inch off the long rail on the 3rd diamond, you wish to pot this ball in the corner pocket 3 diamonds away, and the cue ball is up table near the cross corner about 8 inches in from both the short and long rails. You wish to shoot the cue ball with inside english and are not concerned with where the cue ball goes afterwards, so long as it doesn't scratch. This shot is on the 9 ball for all the marbles.

Thank you for the advice!

Flex