How do you compensate for the use of English?

[WoodyJ]

Hi, I’ve been lurking for a while and thought I’d initiate my first thread. The following thread got me to thinking:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=134723

In particular, Cornerman’s comments about english hit home for me in a general way. And, I agree with him that 37 seconds is way more than enough time to be able to make the shot at hand (once you’ve had the ah-ha light bulb moment and realized that trying to compensate for English is part of the problem):

Master [English]? Never. How long does it take to figure out how to use it and still make the shot at hand? About 37 seconds.

… I almost never "compensate for throw." I realized that my trying to compensate for throw was exactly what was screwing me.

It is the whole idea of "spin throw is not very significant" that allowed me to realize that inside and outside english are and should be of nearly equal difficulty. If you don't believe this, then inside english will never become easier.

Fred

Both here and in books I’ve read about throw, squirt, deflection, curve, pivot point, etc., etc., … I have a background in math, engineering and computers and Dr. Dave’s and others’ analysis of things are interesting on a theoretical level. However, it all befuddles me because it’s too much information to be useful to me and, as such, it’s actually a distraction and detriment to my play to think or talk about.

Over the past year or so (especially when playing in bar tournaments using measles balls) I’ve had several C/B- players (that I like very much, I’m friends with and treat me as somewhat of a mentor) ask me how I find it so easy to use English. And, as much as I really wanted to help them out by explaining what works for me, I just couldn’t get my point across and they shook their heads in disbelief like they thought I was messing with them. My point being: The overwhelming majority of the time I aim and shoot the same regardless of the English that I use. Therefore, using English is easy most of the time since I don’t aim any differently (unless I’m shooting very soft or hard or doing a semi-masse curve shot).

My pool background: Played all the time at age 11-16 and quit. Then, 40 years later, my wife encouraged me to pick up a cue and play in the local café/bar while we were having dinner one evening. More details are in my replies to previous threads:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=126984
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=131152

Now I routinely play in weekly bar tournaments and league. Currently a B player working toward B+ (which will hopefully happen soon once I get my first pool table and can start practicing at home).

My self-taught approach to the use of English:

RULE 1: NEVER USE RIGHT/LEFT ENGLISH UNLESS NEEDED. First make sure your aim and stroke are rock solid and not an issue. That is, play and play until you are confident you can make any routine shot with top, middle and bottom spin. That is only hit the cue ball on the centerline and don’t put left or right English/spin on the cue ball. Get to where, if you shoot a routine shot, your confident you can make it and if you don’t you can quickly analyze why afterwards and correct your problem.

RULE 2: WHEN USING LEFT/RIGHT ENGLISH, STROKE AND AIM THE SAME AS WHEN NOT USING ENGLISH (WORKS FOR MED/SOFT TO MED/HARD SPEED). In order to start adding left/right English to the equation, your stroke should be solid enough that your cue goes back and forth in the same line (and you darn sure know it when you deviate even just a tiny bit). To add English: (1) move your cue parallel to where it normally would be if you were to strike the center of the cue ball, and (2) aim at the object ball in the exact same way you would with a center hit and hit the cue ball at medium speed.

Keep doing this again and again and again. For example, practice the same shot with all different types of spin on the cue ball and hit it at slightly different speeds until you have that shot down pat and then move on to a different shot. Ingrain it into your mind and muscle memory that your stroke and point of aim on the object ball are the same regardless of the English you put on the cue ball. The bottom line (for me) is that with practice you subconsciously learn to do what’s needed to make the shot. That way, all I have to do is stroke the same and aim the same and my subconscious does whatever is necessary to make left/right English work without me having to think about what I’m doing on each different shot.

Comment: I’ve seen all different types of interesting looking stroke trainers in catalogs and on-line but I’ve never tried one. I just now for the first time lined up two different size narrow straight-necked wine bottles flat on my table and tried stroking into each (which were at different heights). Bingo, the cue tip goes straight in and out, level to the table and doesn’t touch the bottle (right up until I start stroking way too hard).

As an example of my system, I show people this easy shot that I use all the time. Line up a cue ball and an object ball so that it’s a straight in shot. Next, introduce another object ball into the shot (say 6”-1’ from the cue ball) from either the left or right so that when no English is used (i.e., the ball is hit dead center) the cue ball will just barely nip the other object ball that’s now in the way. If the obstructing ball is on the right, put right or bottom right on the cue ball and it will slightly curve around the ball in the way and make the object ball. The trick is to block the obstructing ball out of my mind as if it wasn’t there and to shoot the shot like I normally would if I put right English on the cue ball.

RULE 3: DISREGARD RULE 2 ONLY WHEN NECESSARY. Beyond the above Rule 2 for routine shots, to me the next level is being able to put English on soft/hard stroked shots or semi-masse curve shots in which you have to consciously aim differently and allow for cue ball curve and/or elevate the butt of your cue. Fortunately, I only have to use this type of English a very small percentage of the time when it counts and it’s fun to fool around with when practicing.

Thanks for listening. The above works great for me and, hopefully, organizing my thoughts above will help me explain myself better the next time I'm asked.

What works for you and how would you explain it to someone else who is struggling to learn and has a true desire to improve their shotmaking?

 

[gbru]

Hi, I’ve been lurking for a while and thought I’d initiate my first thread. The following thread got me to thinking:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=134723

In particular, Cornerman’s comments about english hit home for me in a general way. And, I agree with him that 37 seconds is way more than enough time to be able to make the shot at hand (once you’ve had the ah-ha light bulb moment and realized that trying to compensate for English is part of the problem):






Both here and in books I’ve read about throw, squirt, deflection, curve, pivot point, etc., etc., … I have a background in math, engineering and computers and Dr. Dave’s and others’ analysis of things are interesting on a theoretical level. However, it all befuddles me because it’s too much information to be useful to me and, as such, it’s actually a distraction and detriment to my play to think or talk about.

Over the past year or so (especially when playing in bar tournaments using measles balls) I’ve had several C/B- players (that I like very much, I’m friends with and treat me as somewhat of a mentor) ask me how I find it so easy to use English. And, as much as I really wanted to help them out by explaining what works for me, I just couldn’t get my point across and they shook their heads in disbelief like they thought I was messing with them. My point being: The overwhelming majority of the time I aim and shoot the same regardless of the English that I use. Therefore, using English is easy most of the time since I don’t aim any differently (unless I’m shooting very soft or hard or doing a semi-masse curve shot).

My pool background: Played all the time at age 11-16 and quit. Then, 40 years later, my wife encouraged me to pick up a cue and play in the local café/bar while we were having dinner one evening. More details are in my replies to previous threads:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=126984
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=131152

Now I routinely play in weekly bar tournaments and league. Currently a B player working toward B+ (which will hopefully happen soon once I get my first pool table and can start practicing at home).

My self-taught approach to the use of English:

RULE 1: NEVER USE RIGHT/LEFT ENGLISH UNLESS NEEDED. First make sure your aim and stroke are rock solid and not an issue. That is, play and play until you are confident you can make any routine shot with top, middle and bottom spin. That is only hit the cue ball on the centerline and don’t put left or right English/spin on the cue ball. Get to where, if you shoot a routine shot, your confident you can make it and if you don’t you can quickly analyze why afterwards and correct your problem.

RULE 2: WHEN USING LEFT/RIGHT ENGLISH, STROKE AND AIM THE SAME AS WHEN NOT USING ENGLISH (WORKS FOR MED/SOFT TO MED/HARD SPEED). In order to start adding left/right English to the equation, your stroke should be solid enough that your cue goes back and forth in the same line (and you darn sure know it when you deviate even just a tiny bit). To add English: (1) move your cue parallel to where it normally would be if you were to strike the center of the cue ball, and (2) aim at the object ball in the exact same way you would with a center hit and hit the cue ball at medium speed.

Keep doing this again and again and again. For example, practice the same shot with all different types of spin on the cue ball and hit it at slightly different speeds until you have that shot down pat and then move on to a different shot. Ingrain it into your mind and muscle memory that your stroke and point of aim on the object ball are the same regardless of the English you put on the cue ball. The bottom line (for me) is that with practice you subconsciously learn to do what’s needed to make the shot. That way, all I have to do is stroke the same and aim the same and my subconscious does whatever is necessary to make left/right English work without me having to think about what I’m doing on each different shot.

Comment: I’ve seen all different types of interesting looking stroke trainers in catalogs and on-line but I’ve never tried one. I just now for the first time lined up two different size narrow straight-necked wine bottles flat on my table and tried stroking into each (which were at different heights). Bingo, the cue tip goes straight in and out, level to the table and doesn’t touch the bottle (right up until I start stroking way too hard).

As an example of my system, I show people this easy shot that I use all the time. Line up a cue ball and an object ball so that it’s a straight in shot. Next, introduce another object ball into the shot (say 6”-1’ from the cue ball) from either the left or right so that when no English is used (i.e., the ball is hit dead center) the cue ball will just barely nip the other object ball that’s now in the way. If the obstructing ball is on the right, put right or bottom right on the cue ball and it will slightly curve around the ball in the way and make the object ball. The trick is to block the obstructing ball out of my mind as if it wasn’t there and to shoot the shot like I normally would if I put right English on the cue ball.

RULE 3: DISREGARD RULE 2 ONLY WHEN NECESSARY. Beyond the above Rule 2 for routine shots, to me the next level is being able to put English on soft/hard stroked shots or semi-masse curve shots in which you have to consciously aim differently and allow for cue ball curve and/or elevate the butt of your cue. Fortunately, I only have to use this type of English a very small percentage of the time when it counts and it’s fun to fool around with when practicing.

Thanks for listening. The above works great for me and, hopefully, organizing my thoughts above will help me explain myself better the next time I'm asked.

What works for you and how would you explain it to someone else who is struggling to learn and has a true desire to improve their shotmaking?

Nice thread! Very well written............deep in some areas but......... the well thought out solutions helped to simplify what you were saying.

I like your idea about about the "sub-conscious" taking over and automatically compensating for left/right spin throw, curve, swerve, squirt, deflection etc.

But unfortunately, I don't think that is the same for everybody. I think a person with the "natural" talent just picks-up on all of that like Mozart picking up on the piano keys. But most people while they are beginning to shoot have to constantly calculate and figure almost every shot before hand. But watch Earl or Rodney Morris or many of the other great shooters with natural talent...........it just seems so easy for them............It's like a good cook working with no recipe.........they just know what and how much to add.

Anyway thanks again for the thought provoking thread. BTW, you would be close in age to my friend Bubba Howard, from Mobile, who at 14 yrs old already possessed that natural talent and hardly ever missed a ball even when he loaded the q ball up with english. My friend Joe Nelson and on another occassion my brother took him on several trips to Florida, California and the Carolinas. He never lost session. And, I can vouch for the Georgia, Carolina trip in '68 because I was there and in on it. If you know Bubba Howard or, are interested, I will tell you some more about him and Cleo Vaughn, (the big bookie/card player/hustler) who dominated gambling around Mobile in the late 60's and 70's. I think those dates are right. My memory is not automatic........in other words it doesn't come natural....I have to work at it.
:welcome:
george

 

[Jal]

Nice post!

The things you mention (squirt, swerve, throw...) are pretty much impossible to calculate and account for individually in any precise way as you set up for a shot. In my opinion though, it doesn't hurt and can help if you have a rough pattern of how the variables relate in the back of your mind. For instance, I don't think our ability to draw the cueball with some accuracy is just based on a bunch of memorized instances. I think there's a conscious, or at least semi-conscious aspect to it, e.g., being aware that harder and lower will get you more draw distance...with some exceptions. Knowing that the cloth on the current table is stickier than the last one you played on means hitting harder and/or lower to achieve the same results, is being aware of what adjustments are needed when one variable (cloth friction) is altered.

I agree that you can get too anal, too methodical, and thereby silence your hard won intuitions. But, imo, ignorance is not intuition, and knowledge isn't necessarily opposed to it. It's known, for example, that as we acquire a skill at something, our cortical activity diminishes as our sub-conscious takes over. It would then seem reasonable to assume that the more confused our cortex is about what's going on, the longer it would take for that transition to occur. If we can't see the various patterns and make sense of things, what does the cortex communicate to whatever's down there and ready to assume control?

Not that you have to study charts and equations to see patterns, obviously. But they can clear up some lingering questions if you're a somewhat experienced player. And if presented with restraint, I don't see why they can't help a relative beginner along too. Not too much can go wrong by learning the 30-degree rule, for instance, can it?

That said, I think there's a lot of merit in your approach. All of us really learn the game at the table.

Jim

 

[manwon]

I think the worst thing that you can do is over complicate the use of English. If you have practiced enough according to your own abilities, and you have viable practice routines there is no need to be concerned with compensation for English. It is built into your stroke, your aim, your mussel memory, and your subconscious mind. To sum it all up, the true secret to using any form of English whether the object ball is a foot away or the length of a 9ft table away is practice practice and more practice there is no easy way!!!!!! For those who think they can accurately compensate for English any other way I say Bullshit, either it comes natural through practice or you will never attain consistency!!!

Take Care

 

[WoodyJ]

... I like your idea about about the "sub-conscious" taking over and automatically compensating for left/right spin throw, curve, swerve, squirt, deflection etc.

But unfortunately, I don't think that is the same for everybody. ...

I've never had any lessons. Just picked up things by watching others play.

I had always assumed it was the same for everybody until I recently tried (for the first time) explaining how I play. Most of what I said was dismissed right off the bat as being unworkable or not understandable (by people who play decently enough to always be a threat to run out on you if you leave them a shot on an open table).

I just made up the "sub-conscious" thing for lack of an explanation. All I know is that when I can keep the cue fairly level with the table I can just aim at the same point on the object ball regardless of the english I put on the cue ball. I always thought it was so cool that the cue ball just somehow magically gets where it needs to be without having to think about things. It surprised me that others found the concept very foreign to them and I wondered what I wasn't explaining properly.

... BTW, you would be close in age to my friend Bubba Howard, from Mobile, who at 14 yrs old already possessed that natural talent. If you know Bubba Howard or, are interested, I will tell you some more about him and Cleo Vaughn ...

I grew up in Biloxi, MS and stuck within a 20-mile radius of home. That was my max. comfort range when riding the back roads and surface streets on a Vespa without a driver's license -- due to being underage. None of the local cops cared at the time and all that was needed if you were stopped was to say that you had a paper route. So, no contact with Mobile other than passing through with my parents to visit my uncle and cousins that lived in Daphne, AL.

I always love to hear stories about action. MS didn't use the 21st amendment to repeal the 18th amendment until 1966 and was the last state to be dry due to prohibition. And, that's pretty much when I quit playing pool. Before then, within a couple of miles of the Gulf coast in our county, beer was sold openly in all the grocery stores. And, there seemed to be tiny package liquor stores all over the place. It was interesting to see liquor bottles with real ABC stamps on them from Jackson in a dry state where all booze was illegal. The cops (and/or their relatives/buddies) seemed to own most of the bars!

Bottom line: If a place sold food (even potato chips), I could go in and shoot pool. But, they couldn't directly sell any beer to anyone unless they had an ID saying that they were 18. Or, if you were 21, you could bring in your own booze/wine and they would charge you for a "setup" (i.e., a glass of ice). So, it was a strange state of affairs that allowed me to go pretty much anywhere I wanted to find action (except the girly club strip shows where they carded you for ID at the door).