How Does an APA 7 Go Down to a 6?

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ll take your point about not raising a hcp in 25 years. But, you are in a unique situation. Most LOs have room to expand. I’ve never seen a business model where a business owner didn’t want to expand his customer base. In our area, new teams form when people leave a team and wants to start another team. The person leaving usually has a hcp that WONT allow him to play on the team. A 3 gets raised to a 4, a 5 gets raised to a 6. Suddenly a 7 can’t play with the 23 rule. Tell me a better way to get more teams than raising handicaps? It’s worked here for years. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mea it’s not true.
I already told you one. The best one. Make your league fun, fair, and honest. If you do that, people who think your league is not fair, not fun, or not honest can pound sand. All other LO's I know think the same way, as does the APA. A league operator who raises skill levels unfairly is no better than a player who wants to lower theirs unfairly. And I still have room to expand. I don't have the locations full seven nights a week and twice on weekends. 😁
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't know about other areas but i think the memphis franchise covers 5 counties. Our former lo just concentrated on the ciry of memphis and one city on the state line of mississippi.

Our new lo's have expanded into other towns in mississippi and even into arkansas. They alao hold more tournaments which draws more interest into the league.

One unfortunate byproduct of more tournaments.....depending on your view i guess....it wrecks havoc on our friday night schedule and sometimes thursday nights...dependiing on the tournaments start date.

Ita up to each team captain to reschedule these matches with orher captains but you have to complete those make ups by a certain date before the end of the session.

Something new this session ...as far as i know is a scheduled make up day for all the teams. It was held yesterday at one location...again...as far as i know. My 2 teams had make ups with 4 other teams. It was a little chaotic at times...at least to me but i must say all the other captains were great at working with me in coordinating matchups. ...and i am sure with each other also.
I was assigned 2 tables to play our matches on. One for 9 ball and the other for 8 ball. The same for other double jeapordy teams as far as i know. sometimes those teams played on our tables and sometimes i sent players to their tables. I believe a few teams only played one format and thus only had one table available.

One other thing of note....the room owner waived all table fees for rhese make ups. It was a long day and tiring at times for this old man but still enjoyable .
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why would you even want to go down in rank? Practice and Work harder so you can win as a 7 instead of crying you should be a 6 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

surffisher2a

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why would you even want to go down in rank? Practice and Work harder so you can win as a 7 instead of crying you should be a 6 🤷🏻‍♂️
Because teams have maximum skill levels that they can play. So being over ranked really hurts the whole team. Its not about winning against your opponent., its being able to field a full team without having to forfeit matches because your "3" didn't show up tonight.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
It's still a number, and must be translated to handicap a race such that five of them can be played in approximately 4 hours, so it's effectively the same thing. 6 buckets is enough for what we do (9 in 9-Ball), so more division would just be fodder for sandbaggers (am I close to having an advantage if I can lower my handicap?).
But Fargo is not "just a number", its a factor relative to how you fare against other players that changes as your skill level changes. If you put people into groups of 400-499 (=APA 4), 500-599 (=APA 5), etc even though they are in the same number group the player with the highest figure is more likely to win, in APA you can probably a large skill difference between people of the same handicap like the OP's case. Unlike what it sounds like with the APA if a person takes some time off and returns or his eye sight degrades and they become less completive their Fargo rating will drop too.
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been an APA 7 in eight ball for years. I have probably been on the low end of the sevens in terms of skill the entire time but managed to eke out a winning percentage over the years. Now at age 72 my fire power is apparently diminishing and even though I have had about a 20% win ratio over the last few years, I remain a 7. Does anybody have any insight on what it takes to move down a notch? Thanks much.
I can't help here as I know little about the workings of APA leagues but do they really have an "everyone's a sandbagger" rule? Should Earl or Efren be seeded into all Matchroom tournaments because "their best game is still in them"? Sounds like a load of bolox. But what can you do? We are all getting older and we have to deal with bad beaurocrats, young and old, who don't try to make things work. I'll be 72 sooner rather than later and will just play my heart out whatever but I feel your pain.
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
But Fargo is not "just a number", its a factor relative to how you fare against other players that changes as your skill level changes. If you put people into groups of 400-499 (=APA 4), 500-599 (=APA 5), etc even though they are in the same number group the player with the highest figure is more likely to win, in APA you can probably a large skill difference between people of the same handicap like the OP's case. Unlike what it sounds like with the APA if a person takes some time off and returns or his eye sight degrades and they become less completive their Fargo rating will drop too.
Even better, your fargo also changes based on the performance of those you have had matches against. Case in point, my own fargo has dropped recently because players I have done well against have played very poorly as of late.

The max '7' APA handicap in 8 ball is the biggest farce in league play that I have ever witnessed. If you have a winning record against other 6's then expect to be bumped to a 7. Once there you'll see a vast, and I mean vaaaaasssssst assortment of skill levels. There is an grand canyon type gap between the inner tiers of the APA '7's. The players that dip their toe in that pond, they will get utterly destroyed by those that swim in the deep end. Don't even need to mention the alpha predators that like to rip chunks of hope out those deep end players...lol
 
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lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Even better, your fargo also changes based on the performance of those you have had matches against. Case in point, my own fargo has dropped recently because players I have done well against have played very poorly as of late.

The max '7' APA handicap in 8 ball is the biggest farce in league play that I have ever witnessed. If you have a winning record against other 6's then expect to be bumped to a 7. Once there you'll see a vast, and I mean vaaaaasssssst assortment of skill levels. There is an grand canyon type gap between the inner tiers of the APA '7's. The players that dip their toe in that pond, they will get utterly destroyed by those that swim in the deep end. Don't even need to mention the alpha predators that like to rip chunks of hope out those deep end players...lol

Everything in the abobe post is pretty much spot on imo. I am pretty much known on jere as a staunch supporter of apa nut there are a few thimgs i disagree with.

One concern is due to your statement about the different level of play as a 7. Whuch i agree with.

We have whats called a captains tournament which is a qualifier for vegas. 3 players with a 15 handicap limit. We rotate between 8 ans 9 ball. So i van halfway understand their rule on using a playees highest handicap towards the 15 limit.

I am a 5 in 8 and a 6 in 9 therefore i have to play aa a 6 in this tournament . what i completely disagree with is their ruling concerning a player that is ranked a 7 in 8 ball and a 9 in 9 ball. They are ranked as a 7 in this tournament giving that team a huge advantage over teams that have say a 7/7 on their team.

My argument is. I am required to play at my highest rank so a 7/9 should play at their highest rank. Sounds logical to me. Right? Not according to apa. Their argument is 8 ball only goes to 7 so thats the highest you can play as in this tournamemt.
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But Fargo is not "just a number", its a factor relative to how you fare against other players that changes as your skill level changes. If you put people into groups of 400-499 (=APA 4), 500-599 (=APA 5), etc even though they are in the same number group the player with the highest figure is more likely to win, in APA you can probably a large skill difference between people of the same handicap like the OP's case. Unlike what it sounds like with the APA if a person takes some time off and returns or his eye sight degrades and they become less completive their Fargo rating will drop too.
Yes it is. You just described one way to do the conversion, divide the Fargo rating by 100. If it doesn't affect the race, why tell the players who is close to going up and who is close to going down? There's a difference between having the info and publishing the info. Fargo and USAPL are just too new to have gone through what the APA went through 30 years ago. IMO they would be wise to learn from APA's experience rather than go through it themselves. Players can go down in APA too when their skills diminish, it's just not always automatic. Sometimes it takes some effort on the part of the player (to point it out), the operator (to research and agree), and maybe APA (to make sure the operator did the research, then let the skill level go down). Sometimes that takes time, but that's not always a bad thing. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There's so much sandbagging in my area you wouldn't believe

Half of the talk in APA leagues is who needs to lose to maintain low ratings and how many games/sets/matches are the minimum needed to still do OK so the others can be dumped. Half the talk is about what drinks to order.

The rest of the time they talk about how to actually play and get better through practice.

There is a "4" in my area, that can play me almost even (I would probably be a 7 or at least a strong 6), he has won two 5 and under tournaments and 3 doubles go to vegas tournaments. Still a 4 after all that. A guy I met years ago that was about as good as me, first day I met him said he was a 5, with a shrug and a "oh well, you know leagues" LOL

Teams I am around fight over "unknown" players new to the APA that are good players, they just want to get the player on the team, start them low and keep them low. No idea how APA operators and the organization in general can be so blind to all that goes on, they must be as dense on purpose as flat earthers. All you need is to have eyes and ears to see how badly the players play the system.

If you base a system on handicaps, it's just an invitation to all the cheaters so they can all be on even terms when they all cheat. Teams A,B, C cheat so in order to keep from wasting their time, teams D and E must also.
 
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APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Even better, your fargo also changes based on the performance of those you have had matches against. Case in point, my own fargo has dropped recently because players I have done well against have played very poorly as of late.

The max '7' APA handicap in 8 ball is the biggest farce in league play that I have ever witnessed. If you have a winning record against other 6's then expect to be bumped to a 7. Once there you'll see a vast, and I mean vaaaaasssssst assortment of skill levels. There is an grand canyon type gap between the inner tiers of the APA '7's. The players that dip their toe in that pond, they will get utterly destroyed by those that swim in the deep end. Don't even need to mention the alpha predators that like to rip chunks of hope out those deep end players...lol
Yeah so if you lose an arm my Fargo rating goes down, even though you had two arms when I played you. That's fair. There are advantages and disadvantages to doing it both ways. Take the OP, for example. If his rating is eventually lowered because his skills have diminished, should the skill levels of those who have played him go up, down, or remain the same? Probably none should go up, but who's to say which should go down and which should remain the same? It's all a guess, and letting a computer decide only gets you a deterministic guess. It's still a guess, and it's based on some human's opinion. So in the end you get an approximation of an opinion which, while more consistent and predictable, is by its very definition less accurate. In some respects it's better, in others it's worse.

The max 7 handicap only applies to 1% to 1.5% of players. By the time a player reaches that level, they are playing in APA for one or more of a small number of reasons. Some just enjoy the League and accept it for what it is. Some really enjoy the coaching aspect and get a lot out of helping the lower skills improve. Some like winning a lot and want to be rewarded for it. Only the third group would benefit from further dividing that 1.5%, and only when two disparate 7's play each other. APA is not trying to be everything to everyone, and the benefit of that change is not worth the cost to them. They are happy to recommend that those players move to a different league that better suits their interests.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Everything in the abobe post is pretty much spot on imo. I am pretty much known on jere as a staunch supporter of apa nut there are a few thimgs i disagree with.

One concern is due to your statement about the different level of play as a 7. Whuch i agree with.

We have whats called a captains tournament which is a qualifier for vegas. 3 players with a 15 handicap limit. We rotate between 8 ans 9 ball. So i van halfway understand their rule on using a playees highest handicap towards the 15 limit.

I am a 5 in 8 and a 6 in 9 therefore i have to play aa a 6 in this tournament . what i completely disagree with is their ruling concerning a player that is ranked a 7 in 8 ball and a 9 in 9 ball. They are ranked as a 7 in this tournament giving that team a huge advantage over teams that have say a 7/7 on their team.

My argument is. I am required to play at my highest rank so a 7/9 should play at their highest rank. Sounds logical to me. Right? Not according to apa. Their argument is 8 ball only goes to 7 so thats the highest you can play as in this tournamemt.

What would solve this is not having two different rating levels. Make it 7 for both or 9 for both.
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
Yeah so if you lose an arm my Fargo rating goes down, even though you had two arms when I played you. That's fair. There are advantages and disadvantages to doing it both ways. Take the OP, for example. If his rating is eventually lowered because his skills have diminished, should the skill levels of those who have played him go up, down, or remain the same? Probably none should go up, but who's to say which should go down and which should remain the same? It's all a guess, and letting a computer decide only gets you a deterministic guess. It's still a guess, and it's based on some human's opinion. So in the end you get an approximation of an opinion which, while more consistent and predictable, is by its very definition less accurate. In some respects it's better, in others it's worse.
lol... way to take it to an extreme to make your argument...

My fargo is unsubstantiated. Meaning I don't have enough games in the system to make it valid. It also means that it will move drastically based on my play and the play of those I have played. The movement diminishes as you have more games in the system.

I have a established APA of 7 in 8ball. Which uses a sample size of half of what I have in fargo. I'm not complaining, but I'll never move down from a 7, and honestly don't care.

As far as your example... If a player proves to be weaker than his handicap would indicate then he should be adjusted. That also means that players he either won or lost against should also be adjusted, imo. If a 7 beats a 7 then that would substantiate the winner's handicap. If it was found shortly there after that the '7' he beat is actually '6' spd, then that should adjust the light that match should be viewed under. The flaw in the APA system is the broad spectrum of ability within the individual levels. The '7' is just the worst example of this merely because there's no where to go afterward. The APA system just doesn't provide the fine tuning fargo has for example. It's not a fair comparison imo, but it is what it is.

So who's to say whether handicaps should go up or down...? The math should based on relative variables. If the equation is unbiased then falling down to a 6 should be just as easy as climbing to a 7.

My short experience in regular CPA/APA league was such that nearly all 7's didn't care about being such. Only the 6's on the 'bubble' whined about moving up.
 

stumpie71

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So logandgriff what is your Fargo rating?

FYI looked up the Fargo rating of 15 players I know that are mid tier 7s at least, lowest 570 highest 670. I

I would guess a decent comparison would be Fargo 550 and above APA 7 and ~475-549 APA 6 for 8 ball. Just a guess on some players I could compare between the different handicap systems.
 

AF pool guy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dr. Dave had a page comparing rating systems.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

8cree

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Dr. Dave had a page comparing rating systems.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Dr Dave has already done the math.


I like the answer given by the APA Op even though I completely agree with about all of the other complaints on the APA.


Poolguy beat me to it while I was searching lol
 

Logandgriff

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
So logandgriff what is your Fargo rating?

FYI looked up the Fargo rating of 15 players I know that are mid tier 7s at least, lowest 570 highest 670. I

I would guess a decent comparison would be Fargo 550 and above APA 7 and ~475-549 APA 6 for 8 ball. Just a guess on some players I could compare between the different handicap systems.
I don't have a Fargo rating and don't know how to get one. I will look into the latter.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What would solve this is not having two different rating levels. Make it 7 for both or 9 for both.

Guess i need to explain the format so you can understand my point.

3 man teams with a 15 max handicap.

Rotate between 8 and 9 ball. Each player plays one rack .

Player 1 starts off the match playing 8 ball.
Player 2 plays 9 ball.
Player 3 plays 8 ball.
Player 1 plays 9 ball
Player 2 plays 8 ball
So each player winds up playing both formats Until one team reaches 5 points.
Each rack is worth 1 point. Unlike regular apa 9 ball where points are counted this tournament gives the win to whoever makes the 9..

Its more or less a modified bcapl format except each time you come to the table you will play 8 ball one time and then 9 ball the next and then back to 8 again and then back to 9 the next time...dependiing on how many racks it takes to reach 5 points first.

I can see them having my 9 ball handicap being charged towards the 15 limit since we are playing 9 ball also. But i can't understand their logic in only charging a team a 9' s 8 ball handicap since apa only goes to a 7 in 8 ball.

you know and i know a team with a 7/9 has an advantage over a team with a 7/7 in a race to one each time they face each other.

Defies logic that they use a 5"s 9 ball handicap but they use a 9's 8 ball handicap towards the 15 max limit.
 
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