How Does an APA 7 Go Down to a 6?

The_JV

Local_Pro
Safety play can help RAISE your handicap, and MAINTAIN your handicap if you're an SL7. So, if you wanna LOWER your handicap, play "safe" without actually calling a safety. "Miss intentionally with a purpose"-- leave your opponent tuff shots. This adds innings to your match which eventually will lower your handicap.
SL7s get matched up against other 7s a lot and thus the declining (older) SL7s are usually getting beat quickly, which keeps the inning count low, which keeps you BOTH stuck as a SL7. ONLY ONE PLAYER has to have a great game for both players to get rewarded. That's the problem with APA handicapping.
To properly sandbag in APA you have to "miss your shot intentionally while leaving your opponent a tuff shot". Create a longer game, don't call safeties. Trust me, I know lol. (But you didn't hear it from me). And this is why I now only play BCA-- sandbagging is tuffer-- love fargorate. I'm a 672 btw, if you're curious.
"Properly sandbag"... love it...

I know the APA has a whole tutorial for LO on spotting players 'properly sandbagging'. It really isn't all that tough to spot.
 

jayman

Hi Mom!
Silver Member
I've been an APA 7 in eight ball for years. I have probably been on the low end of the sevens in terms of skill the entire time but managed to eke out a winning percentage over the years. Now at age 72 my fire power is apparently diminishing and even though I have had about a 20% win ratio over the last few years, I remain a 7. Does anybody have any insight on what it takes to move down a notch? Thanks much.
join the league operators team. That'll do it.
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
The APA handicapping system was disclosed (illegally, really) about 20 years ago. It was very clear that “winning poorly” or running up innings while winning doesn’t have any affect on the handicap numbers.
It is what I was told, but that was at least 20 years ago.

Ask any APA Captain going to Vegas and I'm sure he knows exactly how to do it.


Jeff Livingston
 

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
Seriously??? Another reason i never played APA i guess.
I suspect the reason you never played APA is because you put credence in stuff like this.

Any operator who is any good will listen to your story and make an honest decision. If you have a Championship Lowest Attainable (mentioned by others here as being "locked in" after a trip to nationals), that can be seen in the app and the operator can only appeal that to the national office (all mentioned in the team manual, not a secret, anyone who qualifies that with "I've heard" simply has no interest in reading the team manual). The LO may not have the power to effect a change themselves, but at least they can suggest a change. My suggestion is to have a conversation with your LO, be honest, and don't expect a complete answer right away. Details of the handicapping system are regarded as a trade secret and divulging those details, even to a completely honest person who has no intention of wrongdoing, is a breach of the LO's contract and can cause them to lose their franchise. So if it seems like the LO is trying to talk around some things, they probably are just trying not to give away those trade secrets. It's natural to mistrust LO's who are required to keep certain things secret, but all the LO's I know are honest people trying to be as fair as they can within the limits of their contracts. I will warn you though, any attempt at gaming the system may (hopefully will, but some people are very good at being dishonest) eventually be discovered, at which point all bets regarding help from the LO are off.
Now there are two reasons. :ROFLMAO:
 

Logandgriff

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I suspect the reason you never played APA is because you put credence in stuff like this.

Any operator who is any good will listen to your story and make an honest decision. If you have a Championship Lowest Attainable (mentioned by others here as being "locked in" after a trip to nationals), that can be seen in the app and the operator can only appeal that to the national office (all mentioned in the team manual, not a secret, anyone who qualifies that with "I've heard" simply has no interest in reading the team manual). The LO may not have the power to effect a change themselves, but at least they can suggest a change. My suggestion is to have a conversation with your LO, be honest, and don't expect a complete answer right away. Details of the handicapping system are regarded as a trade secret and divulging those details, even to a completely honest person who has no intention of wrongdoing, is a breach of the LO's contract and can cause them to lose their franchise. So if it seems like the LO is trying to talk around some things, they probably are just trying not to give away those trade secrets. It's natural to mistrust LO's who are required to keep certain things secret, but all the LO's I know are honest people trying to be as fair as they can within the limits of their contracts. I will warn you though, any attempt at gaming the system may (hopefully will, but some people are very good at being dishonest) eventually be discovered, at which point all bets regarding help from the LO are off.
Very helpful answer. Thank you and I will definitely do this at the end of this session, which will be soon.
 

Tom1234

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you beat SL 6s more than 50% and loose to SL 7s more than 50%, you are in the proper SL class as an SL 7.
Let me clarify; my winning % against SL 6s was well under 50% as it was with SL 5s. I didn’t have a winning % against ANY SL.
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The fact that your reply sounded like an attorney affirms my reasons for not playing APA. Never played in any handicapped league for a multitude of reasons. Too much drama to be any fun imo.
I don’t care what league you play in your going to find people who take it wayyyy to seriously. People like this arent The norm In the Apa From my experience.
 

IbeAnEngineer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Best of luck on getting your handicap dropped. Years ago, when I was still playing APA. I had a team mate who almost got killed in a motorcycle accident (Actually he did die a couple of times on the way to the hospital and once in the OR and they were able to bring him back). In any case, he had serious injuries some of which were vision problems. The team sent a very well thought out letter to APA, through our league operator, asking if they would drop his lowest attainable while he was recovering. This was intended to allow his handicap to move to match his level of play. No dice, they turned us down. When he got well enough to move around and actually play, he did not win a single match for over a year. This occurred over 15 years ago and it still puts a bad taste in my mouth when I remember it. If a photo of a guy in ICU with a halo traction device on his head won't get APA to budge on their system, I would like to know what will.
 

easy-e

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Best of luck on getting your handicap dropped. Years ago, when I was still playing APA. I had a team mate who almost got killed in a motorcycle accident (Actually he did die a couple of times on the way to the hospital and once in the OR and they were able to bring him back). In any case, he had serious injuries some of which were vision problems. The team sent a very well thought out letter to APA, through our league operator, asking if they would drop his lowest attainable while he was recovering. This was intended to allow his handicap to move to match his level of play. No dice, they turned us down. When he got well enough to move around and actually play, he did not win a single match for over a year. This occurred over 15 years ago and it still puts a bad taste in my mouth when I remember it. If a photo of a guy in ICU with a halo traction device on his head won't get APA to budge on their system, I would like to know what will.
That's terrible. From a different perspective, maybe we should blame sandbaggers. I bet for every TRUE story like your team mate, the APA gets 5 FAKE stories from people trying to get an edge. Must be tough sometimes to do the right thing when people are looking for an edge.
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Instead of a number rating why doesnt the APA use something akin to Fargo or even Fargo itself? To me it seems like a much better system.
It's still a number, and must be translated to handicap a race such that five of them can be played in approximately 4 hours, so it's effectively the same thing. 6 buckets is enough for what we do (9 in 9-Ball), so more division would just be fodder for sandbaggers (am I close to having an advantage if I can lower my handicap?).
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The fact that your reply sounded like an attorney affirms my reasons for not playing APA. Never played in any handicapped league for a multitude of reasons. Too much drama to be any fun imo.
I don't really care what it sounds like. It's the truth and an attempt to explain why things are the way they are. Much of it is anti-sandbagging. It would be really nice if all the sandbaggers would just raise their hands, then we could just unvite them from the League. But by definition that won't happen. You can choose not to play in the League, I have no issue with that. It's not for everyone.
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’m in the same boat; age and everything you pointed out. My win ratio to other 7s is in the low 20% too. Here’s the kick in the ass; my winning % against all other SLs is less than 50%. I asked the league operator this: if you can’t beat other 7s, how can you be a 7? All I got was strange look that said “you just asked a question that would make me look bad if I answered it”. I then quit playing 8 ball and will only play 9 ball where my hcp is closer to what it should be. Keep in mind this; all league operators want to continue to raise handicaps so that more teams will be formed to increase their revenue. It’s that simple.
This is how people get crazy ideas in their heads. Your last point is untrue, and I can prove it's untrue. I have never raised a handicap in my 25+ years so more teams will be formed. All I care about is fairness, honesty, and fun, and I have one of the largest team counts in the APA. That's how you do it - there are way more people who just want those three things than anything else, and trying to grow teams any other way will just short-circuit the goal.

My answer to your question would have been along the lines of "Someone has to be the worst seven". Are you sure that's not what the look meant? Losing to other sevens is entirely possible (mathematically, not all sevens can have a winning record against other sevens, and 20% isn't that surprising), as is having a record below .500 against each of the other skill levels, if you only play people at or near the top of their range. That's the point of the handicap. It doesn't mean anyone is improperly rated, and it doesn't mean that you're NOT improperly rated. Then I would have gone home and looked at your record, including WHO you were playing, not just the numbers. That stuff takes time, and you're not the only person who thinks they're too high. I get half a dozen of them a night. Maybe you quit 8-Ball too soon and the LO just didn't bother. Or maybe the LO just didn't bother. I don't know your LO so I don't know what they thought or did. I can only say most of them want to get it right.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
These are just my observations based on 11 years and 1900 matches in apa and am now 67 years old.

There are sandbaggers in apa. But then i encountered sandbaggers in bcapl....tap....usapl. I never encountered sandbaggers in napa that i can recall. Regardless of what people on here claim ...fargo can be manipulated just like any other handicapping system. Why do i make that statement ? How else would you explain a couple apa 7's having a lower fargo rate than me...a lowly apa 5.

I learned to not lose any sleep over some one else's handicap. Its just human nature for some to cheat their way to whatever goal they hope to accomplish.

I also learned to not worry about my handicap although i feel that sometimes i am not as good...on average as i once was. Some physical issues affect my play and i find it a lot harder to stay focused during a match.

Some days everything seems to go my way and i have a great match and as a result i am called a sandbagger on occasion. The last time i was called one was a couple weeks ago in an 8 ball match vs a 7. I won 3-3 in a 3-5 race. I guess it didn't matter to him that i have played him at least a dozen times over the last couple years and never won a match till now. So after one win he thinks i am a sandbagger lol.

Bottom line is i think apa is pretty much spot on overall with their handicapping system. At least in my case with a lifetime 50 percent win record in 1900 matches. I didn't bother comparing 8 ball vs 9 ball but would venture to say my 8 ball is slightly higher than 9 ball. 3's and 4"s kill me in 9 ball but i get rackless wins against them in 8 ball.

Yesterday we had make ups and in 9 ball i lost to a 3 in my first match and beat an 8 in my second match and lost to a 4 in my 3rd match. Those lucky slop shots and lucky leaves by lower level players get me frustrated and out of my game but a great safe by a higher level doesn't faze me. Go figure. Btw....i am a 6 in 9 ball.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
I've been an APA 7 in eight ball for years. I have probably been on the low end of the sevens in terms of skill the entire time but managed to eke out a winning percentage over the years. Now at age 72 my fire power is apparently diminishing and even though I have had about a 20% win ratio over the last few years, I remain a 7. Does anybody have any insight on what it takes to move down a notch? Thanks much.
You've already received the best possible answer available on this forum, from APAOperator, so I'm just adding anecdotal observations...

I've seen a few 7's go down to 6's here, over my 11 years of playing. One or two of them truly bubble players, going back and forth on the skill levels. Another is older, and had some medical issues. And guess what? A year or two later, he was back to a 7, cuz he got back to more like his old self. Is he in the top half of our 7's, probably not. Can he hang with them, yes.

Good luck with everything.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not trying to hi jack this thread but here is some thing i found interesting. I seem to play better against higher levels...or did a couple years ago.

Also surprised to see my lifetime win peecentage is exactly the same in both 8 and 9 ball .


Wanting to improve and learn as i go i joined our masters league as a lowly 4 back in 2011.

As you would expect i had a 0 win percentage

I didnt play again until 2015 as a 5. ...50 percent win record. I believe there were a dww others at my level

2016.. 30 percent win record.

2017. 43 peexent win record

2018. 46 percent win record.

The first year i played om the lo's team. Also in 2015 and 2016 i believe there were a few othees at my level back then ..

In 2017 and 2018 i played for a friend...until he wanted to put together a serious team for a shot at nationals.

I love the format and the chance to play the best in town even up in a race to 7.. However its hard for a lower level to join a a team nowadays. I have asked to join a team a few times but no dice yet.

Personaly i think a 46 percent win record is nothing to be ashamed of for an apa 5 vs a bunch of 7's ..8 's ..and 9 's .
 

Tom1234

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is how people get crazy ideas in their heads. Your last point is untrue, and I can prove it's untrue. I have never raised a handicap in my 25+ years so more teams will be formed. All I care about is fairness, honesty, and fun, and I have one of the largest team counts in the APA. That's how you do it - there are way more people who just want those three things than anything else, and trying to grow teams any other way will just short-circuit the goal.

My answer to your question would have been along the lines of "Someone has to be the worst seven". Are you sure that's not what the look meant? Losing to other sevens is entirely possible (mathematically, not all sevens can have a winning record against other sevens, and 20% isn't that surprising), as is having a record below .500 against each of the other skill levels, if you only play people at or near the top of their range. That's the point of the handicap. It doesn't mean anyone is improperly rated, and it doesn't mean that you're NOT improperly rated. Then I would have gone home and looked at your record, including WHO you were playing, not just the numbers. That stuff takes time, and you're not the only person who thinks they're too high. I get half a dozen of them a night. Maybe you quit 8-Ball too soon and the LO just didn't bother. Or maybe the LO just didn't bother. I don't know your LO so I don't know what they thought or did. I can only say most of them want to get it right.
I’ll take your point about not raising a hcp in 25 years. But, you are in a unique situation. Most LOs have room to expand. I’ve never seen a business model where a business owner didn’t want to expand his customer base. In our area, new teams form when people leave a team and wants to start another team. The person leaving usually has a hcp that WONT allow him to play on the team. A 3 gets raised to a 4, a 5 gets raised to a 6. Suddenly a 7 can’t play with the 23 rule. Tell me a better way to get more teams than raising handicaps? It’s worked here for years. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mea it’s not true.
 
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