How feel comes about

klockdoc said:
I know how to jump. It doesn't come up regularly in a game, but I am proficient at this shot enough to be able to consistently utilize it. Sound like the shot you mastered is equivalent to this and falls into this category.

However, there are a lot of shots that I have/had mastered over the years that are available but due to the lack of use, I do not think that I could efficiently perform the shot accurately unless I practice it occasionally.

I think this is what The Renfro was referring to.

Your shot evidently resides in the top of the bag. :smile:
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Except I don't think of it as a bag. I understand the concept but I think that we underestimate our ability to recall information about HOW to do things we once learned.

It's entirely possible for us to master something and never forget it. But we don't train our brains to do this so we do end up forgetting how to do what we once learned.

This all comes back to the idea that an amateur practices until they get it right and a pro practices until they can't get it wrong. Because the pro does this then what they know is available to them forever in an instant. For us we practice something until we own it for a moment. When that moment is gone we start forgetting how to do it.

The real problem I have with shot-specific arsenal building is that it rarely takes the underlying principles into account so that the shooter can adapt and improvise when a slightly different situation comes up.

Saying that you have mastered the jump shot is like saying you have mastered the draw shot. Jumping balls is like kicking, banking, follow, draw, etc... it is only one aspect of pool with hundreds of shots contained inside it. You might think you are a good jumper but can you jump into a cluster to hit a specific ball? Can you jump into a six inch space from four feet away? Can you draw your cue ball on a jump shot? Can you play shape from a jump shot? Can you jump-kick with spin? Being able to do all these things consistently is what I call mastery of the jump shot. Being able to perform a jump-kick that you have never even tried before in your life comes from study of the underlying principles and mastery of those principles which are the foundation for jump shots.

This is what I mean. I don't have a bag of shots anymore. I used to. Now I have a much greater understanding so that the range of shots available to me is not limited to only those I have practiced. If I have practiced them then so much the better. But even if faced with a situation I haven't seen before I can rely on knowing how things work to figure out the solution. Don't know if this makes sense but it's made me a much better player overall.
 
JoeyInCali said:
How do the pros see the tangent line ?
The cueball track ?
THe line of approach ?
Why do they say they hit it fat or two thin after missing ?
:grin:
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Because it's easy to see if the ball was hit too fat or too thin. That's not feel that's results-based analysis.
 
JB Cases said:
Except I don't think of it as a bag. I understand the concept but I think that we underestimate our ability to recall information about HOW to do things we once learned.

It's entirely possible for us to master something and never forget it. But we don't train our brains to do this so we do end up forgetting how to do what we once learned.

This all comes back to the idea that an amateur practices until they get it right and a pro practices until they can't get it wrong. Because the pro does this then what they know is available to them forever in an instant. For us we practice something until we own it for a moment. When that moment is gone we start forgetting how to do it.

The real problem I have with shot-specific arsenal building is that it rarely takes the underlying principles into account so that the shooter can adapt and improvise when a slightly different situation comes up.

Saying that you have mastered the jump shot is like saying you have mastered the draw shot. Jumping balls is like kicking, banking, follow, draw, etc... it is only one aspect of pool with hundreds of shots contained inside it. You might think you are a good jumper but can you jump into a cluster to hit a specific ball? Can you jump into a six inch space from four feet away? Can you draw your cue ball on a jump shot? Can you play shape from a jump shot? Can you jump-kick with spin? Being able to do all these things consistently is what I call mastery of the jump shot. Being able to perform a jump-kick that you have never even tried before in your life comes from study of the underlying principles and mastery of those principles which are the foundation for jump shots.

This is what I mean. I don't have a bag of shots anymore. I used to. Now I have a much greater understanding so that the range of shots available to me is not limited to only those I have practiced. If I have practiced them then so much the better. But even if faced with a situation I haven't seen before I can rely on knowing how things work to figure out the solution. Don't know if this makes sense but it's made me a much better player overall.
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You are comparing apples to oranges.

I have been in many games where after the shot, I have thought about what I could have done to correct the outcome. I didn't think about it at the moment, but after considerable thought, I remembered an old shot that could have helped me. It was lost at the time needed. Still doesn't mean that I could have performed it correctly.

I used the jump shot as a reference because it is not a common shot used in pool, but used enough that I can perform it accurately. (and in many usages). I also have other options to use if I am not sure of the shot. Why would you spend that must time mastering all aspects of a shot that is not a frequent reoccurring item in pool?

Here is an example. Place two balls on the spot. One on the spot, one behind the other. I used to practice this when we used to play one shot roll-out and spot all balls in 9 ball. (long time ago). :smile:

With the cue ball in the kitchen, I could make the ball on the spot in the corner shooting into the pair using draw english on the cue ball regularly. Now, I haven't shot it in 20 years...I still know the shot, but I be willing to bet that I couldn't make it.

Just because it is in your mind (bag), doesn't mean that you can perform it as accurately as you did when you stuffed it in there.

>>> FYI bag is a metaphor for your mind.
 
klockdoc said:
>>> FYI bag is a metaphor for your mind.
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Thanks. I didn't understand this when I made the comment about synapses in my first response to Renfro.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree then. I have more expectation of the human mind than others do I think.

I can agree that ones touch or feel degrades over time when not kept sharp. The used key is always bright as the saying goes.

But I think that depending on how consciously you put shots into your bag determines how easily you can retrieve them. I have seen a guy come back sharp who put his cues away for 20 years meaning literally he did not play a single game of pool for 20 years. One week after coming back to pool he ran more than 100 balls as I sat there and watched. So for every example one can put up on one side of the debate I am confident that someone else has a counter-example.
 
JB
Knowing is a wonderful thing.... Owning is a totally different thing.....
One is about having the image and one is about having the ability to execute...

What you said about an amateur practicing until they get it right and a pro practicing until they can't get it wrong is spot on..... But there in lies the difference.... I can know a shot but I only own that shot when I can execute it properly close to 100% of the time....

As an analogy I can put it this way.... you work leather... You have a whole tool box full of wonderful tools you have amassed over the years... The tools you use everyday are shiny and sharp and on the top of your box.... In the bottom of your box you may have tools that do a VERY specific task and for that task they will perform better than any of the tools in the top of your box... It would make sense that every blue moon you would dig these tools out and sharpen them just in case you were to run into something that required specialization.... otherwise when you pull them out they would be dull and rusty....

The original thread asked how feel comes about. Anyone who has played the game for any length of time can interpolate how to shoot a shot but that requires analysis and conjecture. That is not feel... I know many very good players that do exactly that.... They are very good... They are not pro speed or even short stop speed.... But they are very good...

I can go on for pages about the topic but I don't think it's needed... We have 2 memory banks to draw from... Short term memory and long term memory... I am pretty sure we can all recall what we had for breakfast yesterday but I am pretty sure none of us has a clue as to what we had for breakfast on July 1st......
 
klockdoc said:
You are comparing apples to oranges.

I have been in many games where after the shot, I have thought about what I could have done to correct the outcome. I didn't think about it at the moment, but after considerable thought, I remembered an old shot that could have helped me. It was lost at the time needed. Still doesn't mean that I could have performed it correctly.

I used the jump shot as a reference because it is not a common shot used in pool, but used enough that I can perform it accurately. (and in many usages). I also have other options to use if I am not sure of the shot. Why would you spend that must time mastering all aspects of a shot that is not a frequent reoccurring item in pool?

Here is an example. Place two balls on the spot. One on the spot, one behind the other. I used to practice this when we used to play one shot roll-out and spot all balls in 9 ball. (long time ago). :smile:

With the cue ball in the kitchen, I could make the ball on the spot in the corner shooting into the pair using draw english on the cue ball regularly. Now, I haven't shot it in 20 years...I still know the shot, but I be willing to bet that I couldn't make it.

Just because it is in your mind (bag), doesn't mean that you can perform it as accurately as you did when you stuffed it in there.

>>> FYI bag is a metaphor for your mind.
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I think I get your point.

I know for instance that when I haven't been playing 1pocket and I'm about to go to a tournament I will spend the week before shooting nothing but 1pocket specific shots, both offensive and defensive. I have like this whole checklist of shots that I go through and practice until I feel i can execute them, should they com up. The thing is -- these are all shots "I know" and shots that come up in 1pocket, but just maybe not so often. That's the thing about 1pocket but is also true of about very other game -- there are shots that come up just every once in a while, that you know, but have lost proficiency at. Nonetheless, when they do you have to be able to pull them off.

So I think your analogy about the tool bag (or mind) is a good one.

Lou Figueroa
 
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Scott Lee said:
For the miniscule group of poolplayers who can "get it" in a year or so of HAMB, there are thousands of others who it might take 10-20 years, or more. Getting a solid foothold, by acquiring a good knowledge base to work from, absolutely shortens the learning curve...and from there "feel" will come more easily to many.
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I agree. However, if you eliminate the 'HAMB,' no 'gets it,' while if you eliminate instruction (the attempt to expedite the acquisition of a knowledge base), some still will.

Obviously for many, if not most, the optimal method is a combination of structured instruction and 'HAMB.' But conditions are rarely optimal. In fact (and I acknowledge that this is anecdotal), the mindset of most of the elite players I know is one that heavily privileges 'HAMB' (and 'Gambling A Million Times') over instruction, which suggests to me that in most cases those with the character to become elite are resistant to structured instruction.

I realize that for most other skills/games/sports this is not the case. However there is, I think, a causal line that leads to a pool-specific irrationality:

- Pool exists largely in the cultural gutter and the pool community is generally a herd of degenerate gamblers/hustlers/criminals.

- Such people are rarely the most rational of folks.

- In order to become elite at any skill one must surround one's self with other elites.

- We become like the people we surround ourselves with (we are the mean of our friends, so to speak).

Therefore we find ourselves in a far from optimal environment where, ironically, the best method for improvement is not always the most rational one.
 
What is feel?
Some of the posts on this thread seem to be focused on shot-making, defined as pocketing balls. I'm not sure if this is a test of "feel". We all know tons of players who can pocket balls like crazy but have no "feel" for the rest of the shot, which is total cue ball control. For me, feel is knowing sub-consciously what it feels like to execute a good draw, roll, force follow, nip or any other variety of stroke, AND how it feels to put the proper amount of force behind the shot. It takes fundamental knowledge to have the foundation to learn feel, but BODY AWARENESS to develop it. Some folks pick this up quite easily, others really struggle. For the latter I have several "secrets" that I employ to develop feel.
 
My view of a shot is that it has two parts. Part one, putting the OB or CB where you want, Part 2 is getting the position you want after Part One.

In part one, the reason I did not say make a ball is because of caroms and safety play.

To do part one and part two well at the same time requires you to develop the feel for how balls move when hit and go rolling around the table.

The real point is without real world experiences, paying attention to what is happening around you, or applying yourself you will never get the feel for anything.

I ask the wife at times how the car feels and so goes "Huh, like a car." My feel of the car is way different. I have a higher level of feel for what the car can do than she does and therefore I can get more out of the car. Meaning, I can haul ass at times way beyond she ever could.

Same car, two different views of what feel is and neither view wrong. My feel came from wanting to know the limits, how far can I push it.

Pool is no different.For you to get feel, you got to hit balls. But, just because you are hitting balls, doesn't mean you will get feel. You got to do the feeling, you got to pay attention to whats in front of you to get feeling, you got to push yourself to get feeling. I would never known the feeling of what is meant to have a car rotate in a turn let alone how to use it to turn a car, but because I spent time on a track, I do now. I took time to learn it and spent time to develop how to use it effectively.

Same with pool. You got to do.
 
Feel is not about shot making. It is about bringing into reality perfectly something that prior to execution existed only in our minds..... To own and feel a shot you need complete visualization... You will never develop feel or truly own a shot if your mental image is incomplete, i.e. involves only the object ball going into the pocket.

This is actually a common flaw in beginner and intermediate level players. They visualize the shot but they have an incomplete image and don't try to visualize the rotation and speed of the cueball after contact and follow the cueball to it's final resting place on the table...

This matching of reality to the imagined is what eventually hooks us. We experience a series of shots at some point where every detail of reality matches what we envisioned perfectly. This is the zone....

In the zone we get the tiniest glimpse of what it is like to be the man upstairs... We imagine something and we create it... Once we do it a single time we will strive for the rest of our lives to find those glimpses. Those moments where nothing exists outside of the moment, the imagination, and the creation....
 
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