How good were you when you first picked up a cue?

[BRussell]

My guess is that most decent players were pretty good shooters when they first picked up a cue. It’s pretty easy to see where you need to send the cue ball to pocket the ball you’re shooting, and if you have decent hand-eye coordination it’s not too hard to send the cue ball where you’re aiming. A glance at a good player will show you basically how to bridge and stroke. Even follow, stop, and draw are pretty intuitive (though side english may be a little tougher).

I know a lot of top players were small children when they first played, and it’s hard to play when you can’t reach the table or hold a full cue, but even some young kids can shoot pretty well if they can stand on something.

We’ve all seen players that can’t hold or bridge a cue or send the cue ball anywhere near where they want. I’d bet that they rarely become decent pool players.

 

[Z-Nole]

I was a monster player. I could hit a ton.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Awful…..I had little understanding of cue ball speed and position……I was a 16 yr. old ball banger
and enjoyed every minute playing pool even though I did most of the racking. It was only after I saw
the movie, The Hustler, I became truly motivated to improve which meant learning the fundamentals.

 

[garczar]

Shit, i was born in-stroke. I was robbin' all the other babies out of their Gerbers right from jump street.

 

[Fatboy]

Couldn’t make a ball. Was one of the worst people I’ve ever seen starting out. I have one friend who can’t hit the CB with the tip. I wasn’t that bad, but close.

I’ve always had a theory. The better you are when you start, the better player you can become.

 

[Tin Man]

I've never seen anyone that wasn't terrible the first time they held a cue.

I have seen children that learned from pro players directly. These children learned to hold the cue and form a reasonable bridge. After four of five hours over several sessions they could roll the cue ball fairly well without miscuing often, and could knock in a reasonable amount of easy shots. Nothing about any of these players would be anything that resembled good by our standards.

Now if we lower our standards altogether and assume beginner players can't play at all, then occasionally they might surprise you with a run of 4 that involves a couple of tough shots. Even a beginner can get into the zone. If they are totally focused and present they might come with a couple of shots that catch us off guard.

As for draw shots, these invariably have to be taught. Maybe a kid could figure out that if they shoot hard the cue reacts differently (not knowing they are sliding the ball a bit) and could maybe use that to avoid following in hanging balls. But we'll never know because the adults surrounding them quickly show them how to strike the cue ball low to make it stop, they teach them, explain things to them. Not to mention youtube and instructional is everywhere.

In summary I don't agree with the theory that most decent players had a 'knack' for pool. I think it is a totally learned game. Some people might have pocketing come easier. Some people might have strategy come easier. Some might have work ethic come easier. Some might have more access to good instruction, good competition, or good equipment. Some might have more leisure time. Some might have a better attitude. Some might have more self belief. But in the end everyone needs all of these to excel, and the road is hard for anyone that wants to get good.

 

[middleofnowhere]

My guess is that most decent players were pretty good shooters when they first picked up a cue. It’s pretty easy to see where you need to send the cue ball to pocket the ball you’re shooting, and if you have decent hand-eye coordination it’s not too hard to send the cue ball where you’re aiming. A glance at a good player will show you basically how to bridge and stroke. Even follow, stop, and draw are pretty intuitive (though side english may be a little tougher).

I know a lot of top players were small children when they first played, and it’s hard to play when you can’t reach the table or hold a full cue, but even some young kids can shoot pretty well if they can stand on something.

We’ve all seen players that can’t hold or bridge a cue or send the cue ball anywhere near where they want. I’d bet that they rarely become decent pool players.

Don't remember not being able to play. I think players who have played since they could first see over the edge of the table probably say that same thing. This is especially true if they have been watching good players all along.

There is a certain mental practice, imprinting that takes place when you watch. You will even experience this as an adult player just watching good players. They make it look easy and you feel like you can do it too.

An interesting book on this stuff is called Psycho-Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz.
It discusses mental training in sports and studies that have been done with college athletes. Under certain circumstances your mind can't tell the difference between what's real and what's imagined.

So if you imagine the perfect putt, or pool shot. Visualize it and actually feel a club or cue in your hand. Combining that with actual practice multiplies the end result. Because in your mind your practice is always perfect you never miss.

Your mind is very good at dismissing failure. If it wasn't you would never become good at anything because in the beginning you fail more than you succeed. But what it does is it dismisses failure and keeps the good stuff. That's how you develop skills.

I think the game is much harder to aquire if you start as an adult. I used to see it in the pool room all the time. Guys really trying to learn who just can only seem to get so good no matter how hard they tried. Not saying they can't get good but not like someone who starts as a kid.

 

[boogieman]

I was a kid, so pretty crap. It was still fun, as was just rolling the balls into each other by hand.

 

[DaveK]

My guess is that most decent players were pretty good shooters when they first picked up a cue. It’s pretty easy to see where you need to send the cue ball to pocket the ball you’re shooting, and if you have decent hand-eye coordination it’s not too hard to send the cue ball where you’re aiming. A glance at a good player will show you basically how to bridge and stroke. Even follow, stop, and draw are pretty intuitive (though side english may be a little tougher).

I know a lot of top players were small children when they first played, and it’s hard to play when you can’t reach the table or hold a full cue, but even some young kids can shoot pretty well if they can stand on something.

We’ve all seen players that can’t hold or bridge a cue or send the cue ball anywhere near where they want. I’d bet that they rarely become decent pool players.

I disagree with almost everything in this post. All decent players started bad, there is no other place to start. Any bad player can become good if they try. Like anything pool is learned, and can be well learned through proper "deliberate practice" ... just like anything else.

Dave <-- reading Bounce and Peak Performance

 

[Korsakoff]

I started late; I was probably around 15-16. Played once at some "rich folks" house and had to be drug away when it was time for the adults to leave. Moved to Nashville around that time. My next door neighbor, Joe, was in the 10th grade, same as me. I mentioned something about pool, and he said we could walk up to Nolensville Rd. and there was a place a couple blocks down. By recollection, I'd say it was a mile or so walk.

It was a small sort of store-front with about 8 coin operated bar tables. Don't remember anything else. We took what change we could muster between the two of us. As I recall, I was better and he was paying for most racks. Then, his older sister's boyfriend, Gary, came in looking for Joe. Gary was a tall guy whose Dad owned a garage and they raced cars (locally). He challenged me to a game and said we'd have to play for something. I showed him the change I had left, and he said we'd play for that.

I won, and he was pissed. Said it was pure luck and if he had time, we'd play another game and he'd kick my butt. We never played again.

After that, I discovered the Community Center, and I typically could hold the table for quite a while. One day, a new guy from Mississippi showed up and had the first "custom" (sic) cue I'd ever seen - a Palmer. He was a little better than me, but showed me stuff and I began improving even more. Seems I was always lucky enough to have a better player want to show me a few secrets.

Right now, after 2-3 decades of laying off, I'm probably 50% of the speed I shot at the Community Center.

 

[BRussell]

Good posts DaveK and TinMan. I agree with most of what you both said, and maybe I should have framed it in more relative terms. I’m not saying new players can start out as a 700 Fargorating.

But I do think we’ve all seen players who haven’t played much but can shoot pretty well, and other players who haven’t played much and can’t send the cue ball within 6 inches of where they want. Its hard to know someone’s history and maybe the better players have played more in every case, but I don’t think so. I think there are drastically different starting points for different people. Maybe some people start out as 100s and others as 300s?

In both of your posts I have a sense that you think I’m saying that for top players, it’s all ability and no practice, but that’s not at all what I’m saying. I just think there are different starting points. I believe that’s consistent with the research on prodigies and on deliberate practice.

 

[BRussell]

Don't remember not being able to play. I think players who have played since they could first see over the edge of the table probably say that same thing. This is especially true if they have been watching good players all along.

Yeah that’s what I think too.

 

[BRussell]

Awful…..I had little understanding of cue ball speed and position……I was a 16 yr. old ball banger
and enjoyed every minute playing pool even though I did most of the racking. It was only after I saw
the movie, The Hustler, I became truly motivated to improve which meant learning the fundamentals.

Me too, but I think it was Hustler II (Color of Money) for me.

 

[DaveK]

Good posts DaveK and TinMan. I agree with most of what you both said, and maybe I should have framed it in more relative terms. I’m not saying new players can start out as a 700 Fargorating.

But I do think we’ve all seen players who haven’t played much but can shoot pretty well, and other players who haven’t played much and can’t send the cue ball within 6 inches of where they want. Its hard to know someone’s history and maybe the better players have played more in every case, but I don’t think so. I think there are drastically different starting points for different people. Maybe some people start out as 100s and others as 300s?

In both of your posts I have a sense that you think I’m saying that for top players, it’s all ability and no practice, but that’s not at all what I’m saying. I just think there are different starting points. I believe that’s consistent with the research on prodigies and on deliberate practice.

I don't think there are different starting points. I do believe that some are better / quicker learners, and that may be what you see with the more proficient "new" players. I also believe that the poor / slow learners can improve their learning abilities by understanding how to learn (deliberate practice) and putting in the time/effort. Most don't know how to learn skills and/or won't invest the effort.

Dave

 

[Black-Balled]

Couldn’t make a ball. Was one of the worst people I’ve ever seen starting out. I have one friend who can’t hit the CB with the tip. I wasn’t that bad, but close.

I’ve always had a theory. The better you are when you start, the better player you can become.

My best friend since childhood is like that; absolutely no concept of what happens on a pool table. It is hilarious, remarkable and frustrating to play with him.

Best matchup for us is on a billiard table, I play 3c and he plays straight caroms. He wins sometimes, but only when I forget slow to the red is a bad strategy for me.

I'd rob him at that game for $ but our night out isn't like that.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

How good did I think I was or how good was I?
I could make a few balls and thought I was king kong.
Didn't know shit, couldn't do shit.
Come to think of it, I may have gotten worse since then.

 

[Tin Man]

Good posts DaveK and TinMan. I agree with most of what you both said, and maybe I should have framed it in more relative terms. I’m not saying new players can start out as a 700 Fargorating.

But I do think we’ve all seen players who haven’t played much but can shoot pretty well, and other players who haven’t played much and can’t send the cue ball within 6 inches of where they want. Its hard to know someone’s history and maybe the better players have played more in every case, but I don’t think so. I think there are drastically different starting points for different people. Maybe some people start out as 100s and others as 300s?

In both of your posts I have a sense that you think I’m saying that for top players, it’s all ability and no practice, but that’s not at all what I’m saying. I just think there are different starting points. I believe that’s consistent with the research on prodigies and on deliberate practice.

Thanks BRussell.

Don't worry, I didn't misunderstand your post, I was very careful in reading it to not put words into your mouth. You even started by saying "My guess is", so I understood you were simply making observations and posing a question.

You're right that I am a big believer in hard work equating to success. I also understand there is no such thing as equal opportunity in pool or in life. Some people are born blind or lose their arm in a crash to a drunk driver. These people aren't going to make championship level pool players obviously. Beyond the obvious there are many other advantages some children could have over others. They might have ADD with a 'hyper-focus' that allows them to play many hours without losing interest and learning the game more quickly. They might be the oldest in birth order and have a high level of belief they should be the best at what they do. Or maybe they are the last in their birth order and were so sick of losing to their older siblings they channeled their frustration of being neglected into a mad fury that lead them to success. Or maybe they were given a lot of other hand/eye type of activities as a kid, so even if it looks like they are taking to pool quickly it's possible they had a head start based on other prior experiences.

Part of it comes down to what we call a 'natural'. Is this someone that has a better overall background, mentally and physically, that gives them an advantage to making faster progress? Or is this someone that genetically was advantaged, such that if they were in a controlled experiment they'd outperform others with identical upbringings?

In the end we just don't know. We have very little information on this. So what I find interesting is what we choose to believe, and furthermore what we choose to focus on. I believe the best strategy is to assume that the biggest variable is hard work. This serves the purpose of inspiring me to work hard. And I always find it odd when others (not necessarily you) go down the road of questioning the role of talent. In your case it seemed scientific curiosity. But for many others it's like they're looking for an explanation of why they fell short. It's not the question, it's the motivation behind it, that I wonder about when people start these conversations.

Again, I am fine with scientific curiosity. Maybe we learn some things that will help us give more advantages to other children and improve everyone's starting position. For me my primary goal is improving my performance and that of my students and I believe that what I focus on expands. So I focus on hard work.

Thanks for an interesting and respectful conversation.

 

[jay helfert]

TERRIBLE and INEPT! That made the game even more challenging for me. It took me all of a year of constant play (at age 18) to learn angles and how to make balls. Another year spent learning how to control the cue ball (and that was just the basics), and finally in the third year I learned some of the fine points ahd what it took to win games (we were playing Roll Out). I was 21 and pretty much broke, but I finally could play a little and started to beat all the guys who had been terrorizing me for years.

 

[evergruven]

pre-teen, I used to go to the hospital with my dad to meet mom after she finished up her work there
we were on the bus, so often we'd be early (better than late, I guess)- good thing the place had a game room, complete with pool table
I remember him showing me a spot shot with the cb on the rail and telling me "if you can make that, you can make anything"
of course that's not true, but to this day I smile and find a kind of wisdom in that- and I still practice the shot sometimes
anyway not long after those experiences with dad, I played in a rec center 8-ball tourna, I was 12 maybe-
I won a few games, and made it to the final- in the deciding game, I made the 8-ball, and the cb- dang, 2nd place.

I've had many memorable pool table experiences since, good times with good people- but it wasn't until 2016 that something else really clicked for me
curious by a sign posted at a bar, I began to play in a bar tourna- a few months after that I got my first cue, and learned what a safety was
I think I joined up here the year after, lurked awhile, kept playing, and just got more and more interested in the game
started shooting my keyboard off around here, learned more, met some good people, kept playing. I'm still not very good, but I really dig pool.
not sure how well that answer's the OP question, but I don't I've never written about how I started playing before. still shooting my keyboard off, too, I guess..
cheers ^_^

 

[westcoast]

I first started playing around 17. I was terrible at first- I struggled even to make a decent bridge- open or closed. Around 21 I became obsessed with the game and played in tournaments on a regular basis at a local hole in the wall bar in Ann Arbor (the 8 Ball Saloon). Now 25 years later I'm just an average local league player.

On the topic- broadly speaking I think there are some people that have great hand eye coordination and will pick up the game much more rapidly than others and they tend to be good at any sport they spend time playing (particularly golf, tennis, baseball, etc.). Unfortunately, I'm not one of them! Not terrible hand eye coordination skills, but I know people who are much beyond me in that realm.