How hard is it to run an Amateur Tour?

K

KBP

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That question comes up for me every day. I am Kay Higgins owner/CEO of the Kings Bay Promotions Amateur 9-Ball Tour. Fury cues is our title sponsor. I have a problem and need players help with this. We use the BCA Master List as our guide to who can and cannot play. It's really the only tool out there with any kind of info on it that shows us the status of a player. The problem I have is that I had a player lie to my tournament director and play in one of our events. We didn' let him play last year because he was on this list and we felt that he was above an amateur level that we are trying to keep this at. He caused me some flack and posted a bunch of negative stuff on this forum about us. I answered back and explained things to him. He did not like my explanation or decision. This time he showed up at one of my events in South Carolina and lied to my tournament director that Mark Griffin had assured him that he would be taken off the list. I know the BCA is working on the list and trying to work some things out so that was not an unbelieveable statement. I spend a lot of time on researching players and where they stand to keep people from slipping in on us. I'm not perfect and there are times someone that shouldn't play on this level gets in but I put them on a Watch list and then at the end of the season we decide their level and where they should be. As I said before we use the BCA list as a guide and add and take away from that list as players show up. I called Mark Griffin at the BCA and spoke with him about this player. He was upset that someone lied using his name to get access to one of our events. In other words he didn't even know the player nor has he planned on taking him off the list because of his stats with them. I am sending this players membership fee back to him with a letter stating that he cannot play in our events. If he hadn't lied and we had been contacted before he showed up so that we could research his stats and let him know where he stood it might have been different. We did suggest this last year when we said he could not play. We are trying to run a good amateur tour. A place where people that need to build their game can. We cannot do this if the people who are above the level comes in and takes it away. I wish that Mr. Brian White would contact me on this matter. I had requested a contact last year and he refused. I just want him and other players to understand what we are trying to do. Its not a perfect system but we are trying to build something here for the game. I appreciate all the players and thanks for listening.
Kay Higgins, CEO
Kings Bay Promotions
1-877-828-7449
email: kbp_amateur9-ball@gate.net
url: http://home.gate.net/~higgins3/
 
I know running an "Amateur" tour is really really hard. This is a good example of why. I know Mr. Brian White and the last I spoke to him he was playing pool for his income and had no full time job. In my opinion this would exclude him from any "Amateur" tournament. BUT, There are many many players that have full time jobs that have achieved Master status in the BCA. Also, There are many players that play pool for a living but only prey on small tournaments and "Amateur" tournaments and do not compete in any league systems at all. I know you have a tough job to decide who is eligible and who is not. Maybe including that you must have a full time job will weed out some of them. Good Luck....and remember You can't make all the pool players happy....That is an impossible mission.
 
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My suggestion would be to pay as deep as possible so that it simply is not worth the time of the semi-pro to win the money. Also, keep tour points, and any player with more than X points cannot play in the lower-level tournaments.

I think that running the tournaments as handicapped events would be even more effective at keeping the semi-pros away, but they may be there at the start until their ratings are established. If you need an easy, fair handicapping system, I can point you to one.
 
Bob Jewett said:
My suggestion would be to pay as deep as possible so that it simply is not worth the time of the semi-pro to win the money. Also, keep tour points, and any player with more than X points cannot play in the lower-level tournaments.

I think that running the tournaments as handicapped events would be even more effective at keeping the semi-pros away, but they may be there at the start until their ratings are established. If you need an easy, fair handicapping system, I can point you to one.
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Bob

do you have a good one for 8 ball

Thanks
 
Drake might have a good idea here. Perhaps requiring proof of employment (paystub) for all players might weed out some of the "full time pool players".
 
This is Brian White. I did speak with Mark Griffin, so get your facts straight before calling someone a liar. (I think they call that slander)
 
B_White said:
This is Brian White. I did speak with Mark Griffin, so get your facts straight before calling someone a liar. (I think they call that slander)
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Please dont start again...obviously, you play too good and they probably should be scared. Get ova it...

I know, "they let Mr. x play and he plays as good/ better than I...". Just like speeding- you only get penalized if you get caught!

So, get over it and bust those sukkers every chance you get!

-pigo
 
wvroadrunner said:
Bob

do you have a good one for 8 ball

Thanks
Click to expand...
If you're willing to handicap by games on the wire, you can use the system described in info on the NPL system (in the "misc files" section on the web site below). It is easy to administer. The largest problem is rating new players. Some people have adapted it to eight ball leagues. See the newgroup rec.sport.billiard on http://groups.google.com for more info.
 
Can you see the irony in this? A guy works hard for years to improve his game, only to end up being denied entry into a tournament he might have a chance to win, but never getting good enough to win a tournament composed of pro players.

Snoozy
 
To Mr. Brian White. I spoke with Mark on Aug 2, 2004 and he did not even know who you are. Neither did the guy he has that happens to be working on the Master's List. Mark had to look you up. We know its hard when you are better than the amateur player and not good enough for pro events. We have been there. My husband Tim is in that spot. He was listed with the Pro Billiards tour in the 1990's as a developing pro. He has no place to really play.

To all others: We invented these amateur events so that people can have something to help them build to that level. We are trying so hard. The way I have the payout set up is to as least where the last place we pay out gets their entry fee back. We have been doing this for over 6 years now and we were mainly in Florida. I don't know of any simple answer other than what I am doing. I am making a list of the exempt players. Players that slip in go on a watch list and we will decide what to do with them from there. There is no ranking out there to help us with this. We are having to go along as best we can. We can't handicap players because of all the different divisions we have. It would really be hard to do that especially since we have so many new players off and on. I want this tour to continue to grow. The problem is and has always been is the better players sneaking in on us. These are amateur events and I want to see people grow to their full potential of their playing ability. We do pay decent money out for our events. My biggest question is, besides the money, why do the better players want to get in on amateur action? They know they can win. It's not a challenge. Why not let the people that are amateurs play their events without you coming in and taking all the glory? This is the reason so many times I've been turned down for sponsorship outside the industry. Pool still does not have a good reputation. But all in all I love the game, I love the players and I love having events that allows people to improve their game and grow. I don't think that's so bad.
Kay
 
Clearing this matter up

To all: I spoke last night with Mark Griffin from the BCA. He called to let me know the whole situation with Brian White. The first thing is that Mark had only received a voice mail from Brian and he understood it was to be taken off the mailing list. From my understanding he left a message for Brian that he wanted to discuss taking him off the list. He did not personally speak with him till after all this other happen. At this point in time Brian White will be left on the BCA Masters list and will not be taken off. He will not be allowed to play in the amateur events. The BCA is working hard to get their records straight and will be reviewing past playing records so they can better judge who is an amateur and who is not. We are not affliated with the BCA, our events are not sanctioned with the BCA but I believe they are on the right track in setting up players and stats. If anyone feels they do not belong on the list please contact the BCA and let them know why. In the meantime I will keep in contact with the BCA and help if I can to promote the game of pool and help players get their stats corrected so they can play at the level they are.

To Brian White: It was a miscommunication with the voice mails. I am sorry but at the time the information I had gotten and voiced was correct. You still will not be allowed to play and I will be sending you membership fee back to you in the next few days. I waited to make sure of the situation.
 
B_White said:
This is Brian White. I did speak with Mark Griffin, so get your facts straight before calling someone a liar. (I think they call that slander)
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To Brian White: It was a miscommunication with the voice mails. I am sorry but at the time the information I had gotten and voiced was correct. You still will not be allowed to play and I will be sending you membership fee back to you in the next few days. I waited to make sure of the situation. You did not speak with Mark Griffin it was a voice mail and that's how this whole thing got turned into a mess. It was miscommunication through voice mail which is good under certain circumstances but not like talking to the real person. I do appolize for any miscommications on my part.
 
Pigo,
This is good information, but unfortunately, very incomplete. AZB can only count what gets reported to them. I would be willing to bet that Brian has cashed in more than one tournament this year. This is the reason rating pool players is so difficult. There really is no central point of record keeping. AZB does a great job with the information they get, but they don't get enough. The BCA has the same problem. Unless someone plays in a BCA sanctioned event, they don't show up.

I don't know the solution, unless someone can get all the tours like Viking, Fury, Southeast, Joss and all the rest to put all their results into one central database that would rate all the tournament players. Even then, there are still going to be some players that don't show up accurately.

It's kinda like handicapping a tournament. No matter what you do, someone is going to be unhappy with the way they are handicapped, or the way their opponent is handicapped. You just have to do the best you can.
 
I think that $1k+ win paints a pretty accurate picture of the ability level the player holds...For sure, not complete, but accurate.

-pigu :)
 
KBP said:
That question comes up for me every day. I am Kay Higgins owner/CEO of the Kings Bay Promotions Amateur 9-Ball Tour. Fury cues is our title sponsor. I have a problem and need players help with this. We use the BCA Master List as our guide to who can and cannot play. It's really the only tool out there with any kind of info on it that shows us the status of a player. The problem I have is that I had a player lie to my tournament director and play in one of our events. We didn' let him play last year because he was on this list and we felt that he was above an amateur level that we are trying to keep this at. He caused me some flack and posted a bunch of negative stuff on this forum about us. I answered back and explained things to him. He did not like my explanation or decision. This time he showed up at one of my events in South Carolina and lied to my tournament director that Mark Griffin had assured him that he would be taken off the list. I know the BCA is working on the list and trying to work some things out so that was not an unbelieveable statement. I spend a lot of time on researching players and where they stand to keep people from slipping in on us. I'm not perfect and there are times someone that shouldn't play on this level gets in but I put them on a Watch list and then at the end of the season we decide their level and where they should be. As I said before we use the BCA list as a guide and add and take away from that list as players show up. I called Mark Griffin at the BCA and spoke with him about this player. He was upset that someone lied using his name to get access to one of our events. In other words he didn't even know the player nor has he planned on taking him off the list because of his stats with them. I am sending this players membership fee back to him with a letter stating that he cannot play in our events. If he hadn't lied and we had been contacted before he showed up so that we could research his stats and let him know where he stood it might have been different. We did suggest this last year when we said he could not play. We are trying to run a good amateur tour. A place where people that need to build their game can. We cannot do this if the people who are above the level comes in and takes it away. I wish that Mr. Brian White would contact me on this matter. I had requested a contact last year and he refused. I just want him and other players to understand what we are trying to do. Its not a perfect system but we are trying to build something here for the game. I appreciate all the players and thanks for listening.
Kay Higgins, CEO
Kings Bay Promotions
1-877-828-7449
email: kbp_amateur9-ball@gate.net
url: http://home.gate.net/~higgins3/
Click to expand...

Kay,

I live in Greenville, SC, and know alot of the players in this area. I have also attended several of your tournaments as a spectator.

From what I see, it is not so much the fact that a "ringer" gets into the tournaments occasionally. All amateurs understand how hard it is to keep that from happening. The reason many of the people I know (including myself) don't participate is because, from what I understand, your tour takes half of the entry fees to keep for yourself. I have been told that the entry fees are $40.00, but your tour keeps $20.00 and only puts $20.00 into the tournament pot.

Many players feel that this is too steep of a cut, and think that you are gouging the amateurs, thinking we don't know better, and keeping the biggest piece of the pie for yourself. Other tours don't take nearly this much for themselves.

To me, this is why you only get 20-30 players per event.

Mike Templeton
 
Mike,
Thats not quite accurate. Out of the entry fee, $10 per player goes to the room for green fees, and $10 goes to the tournament director. Both of those are capped at 50 players. Beyond that, the entire entry fee goes straight to the pot. The Carolina tour averages about 30 players, which means I make $300. That's for me to get up Saturday morning, drive to Greenville (or wherever), set everything up, sign everyone up, run the tournament, officiate calls, make sure the pay-outs are done correctly, complete the paperwork for the tour, pay everyone, pack everything up, load it up and drive home. Depending on where the tournament is being held, I usually put in anywhere from 16 to 20 hours per event. Oh, yeah, sometimes they are too far to drive both ways in one day, so add in the cost of a motel room. This doesn't count the time I spend finding rooms to host tournaments, scheduling tour stops, checking out rooms, and dealing with "issues" that seem to come up with almost every event.

To tell the truth, I would rather be playing on a tour like this, but I made the decision to run the tour because I think it is a good idea, I love the game, and it gives a lot of players a quality series of tournaments to play in, without facing the possibility of drawing a pro and getting sent home early. We try to keep the skill level of the players in generally the same level so more players have a legitimate chance to cash in the tournament. Believe me, no one is getting rich off the tour. (Try finding out what some of the other tour operators are making with their events, you might be very surprised) We are working to find additional sponsors so we can increase the amount of money added. These potential sponsors want to know how many players we average. If it's not enough, it's tough to get them on board. We are doing our best to build it up so there can be bigger pay-outs for everyone. Presently we pay 25% of the field, and the lowest pay-out at least covers the entry fee. First place usually ends up paying out 10 times the entry fee. Personally, I don't think that's a bad deal.
 
pooltchr said:
Mike,
Thats not quite accurate. Out of the entry fee, $10 per player goes to the room for green fees, and $10 goes to the tournament director. Both of those are capped at 50 players. Beyond that, the entire entry fee goes straight to the pot. The Carolina tour averages about 30 players, which means I make $300. That's for me to get up Saturday morning, drive to Greenville (or wherever), set everything up, sign everyone up, run the tournament, officiate calls, make sure the pay-outs are done correctly, complete the paperwork for the tour, pay everyone, pack everything up, load it up and drive home. Depending on where the tournament is being held, I usually put in anywhere from 16 to 20 hours per event. Oh, yeah, sometimes they are too far to drive both ways in one day, so add in the cost of a motel room. This doesn't count the time I spend finding rooms to host tournaments, scheduling tour stops, checking out rooms, and dealing with "issues" that seem to come up with almost every event.

To tell the truth, I would rather be playing on a tour like this, but I made the decision to run the tour because I think it is a good idea, I love the game, and it gives a lot of players a quality series of tournaments to play in, without facing the possibility of drawing a pro and getting sent home early. We try to keep the skill level of the players in generally the same level so more players have a legitimate chance to cash in the tournament. Believe me, no one is getting rich off the tour. (Try finding out what some of the other tour operators are making with their events, you might be very surprised) We are working to find additional sponsors so we can increase the amount of money added. These potential sponsors want to know how many players we average. If it's not enough, it's tough to get them on board. We are doing our best to build it up so there can be bigger pay-outs for everyone. Presently we pay 25% of the field, and the lowest pay-out at least covers the entry fee. First place usually ends up paying out 10 times the entry fee. Personally, I don't think that's a bad deal.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the explanation. Some of the players in these tours don't understand that this is NOT a money-making opportunity and all that the tour directors put up with.

As a Regional Tour Coordinator sanctioned by the WPBA, I am obligated to pay out 100% of the prize fund and collect only a yearly membership from the players in my tour. At my last event I collect $330 in memberships. My hotel room cost me $230 (near NYC) and that was with Priceline. If I break even for an event, I'm happy, but that's the exception and not the norm.

Barbara
 
pooltchr said:
Mike,
Thats not quite accurate. Out of the entry fee, $10 per player goes to the room for green fees, and $10 goes to the tournament director. Both of those are capped at 50 players. Beyond that, the entire entry fee goes straight to the pot. The Carolina tour averages about 30 players, which means I make $300. That's for me to get up Saturday morning, drive to Greenville (or wherever), set everything up, sign everyone up, run the tournament, officiate calls, make sure the pay-outs are done correctly, complete the paperwork for the tour, pay everyone, pack everything up, load it up and drive home. Depending on where the tournament is being held, I usually put in anywhere from 16 to 20 hours per event. Oh, yeah, sometimes they are too far to drive both ways in one day, so add in the cost of a motel room. This doesn't count the time I spend finding rooms to host tournaments, scheduling tour stops, checking out rooms, and dealing with "issues" that seem to come up with almost every event.

To tell the truth, I would rather be playing on a tour like this, but I made the decision to run the tour because I think it is a good idea, I love the game, and it gives a lot of players a quality series of tournaments to play in, without facing the possibility of drawing a pro and getting sent home early. We try to keep the skill level of the players in generally the same level so more players have a legitimate chance to cash in the tournament. Believe me, no one is getting rich off the tour. (Try finding out what some of the other tour operators are making with their events, you might be very surprised) We are working to find additional sponsors so we can increase the amount of money added. These potential sponsors want to know how many players we average. If it's not enough, it's tough to get them on board. We are doing our best to build it up so there can be bigger pay-outs for everyone. Presently we pay 25% of the field, and the lowest pay-out at least covers the entry fee. First place usually ends up paying out 10 times the entry fee. Personally, I don't think that's a bad deal.
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Pooltchr,

What I said is accurate. You are just giving justification why it is.

First let me say that I think that your tour is a good idea, and has some potential. Don’t get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with a tournament director getting paid. It is how they get paid that sometimes makes a difference.

I direct tournaments as well. I was the tournament director at the South Carolina Open in May, and we had 82 players. I know as well as anyone the time and effort involved in running a successful tournament. But in every tournament I have directed, the room paid the TD. And every other Tour that I know of pays their tournament director this way. The players should not be responsible for this expense. With players and spectators there to eat, drink, and spend monies in other ways, the room should not mind your fee. That extra $10.00 per player added to the payout would make a difference in the amount of players that attend. And I DO know what most of them get for running a tournament.

Also, you’re not going to get much sympathy from me for making $300.00 for 1 days work, even if there is a little bit of driving involved.

Most organized tours that I know also pay ¼ of the field, but first place in their events is closer to 20 times the entry fee instead of 10 times that amount. Except for Tommy Kennedy’s but I know he donates some of the entry fees to charity.

Again, I’m not saying anything bad about your Tour. I am just giving you the input that many of the amateur players talk with me about.

Mike
 
Barbara said:
Thank you for the explanation. Some of the players in these tours don't understand that this is NOT a money-making opportunity and all that the tour directors put up with.

As a Regional Tour Coordinator sanctioned by the WPBA, I am obligated to pay out 100% of the prize fund and collect only a yearly membership from the players in my tour. At my last event I collect $330 in memberships. My hotel room cost me $230 (near NYC) and that was with Priceline. If I break even for an event, I'm happy, but that's the exception and not the norm.

Barbara
Click to expand...

Barbara,
Thanks for understanding about how much it cost to run a tour. We are not trying to justify how we do things. We are just explaining how it works. The green fees go into the prize fund. I, being the owner, take $10 of the membership fee and put in a prize fund to be distributed out to the top 8 point places in each division. We have 5 divisions at this time. People will always complain. It takes a lot of work and its not a get rich scheme. And the money doesn't stretch. The reason we take out green fees is to get us in the rooms. That way they see that they aren't out much money to have a tournament. We had 54 at our last tournanment in Florida. We have been doing tournaments there for over 5 years and have always had good turn outs. I just feel the people that don't play but complain just are the way they are. I am promoting the game. To give people places to play and practice in a competitive way against other players of the same level or a little better for the enjoyment or to get their game where they want it to be.
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate someone understanding and not complaining.
By the way I did 2 qualifiers for the Spirit Tour at my Florida Ladies Amateur Events. The tour paid the entry fee for the winners. That way they could work their way up into the field and play in a qualifier for WPBA that the Spirit Tour does. We try to work together to make pool build.
Thanks again
Kay
 
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