How important is stance?

Straight from pool school:

The stance should be balanced, comfortable, and allow free movement of the cue, along your natural range of motion (pendulum swing). The eyes should be positioned over the cue, such that what is PERCEIVED is accurate.

Eye dominance has nothing to do with shooting pool. Some people SEE a straight line with the cue centered under their dominant eye...others do not. It doesn't make any difference. It's where your cue lines up when you see a straight line that matters. The second half of that equation is being able to deliver the cue in the straight line you perceive.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Klopek...Although I agree with some of what you said (for SOME of the time), I have back Mark Avlon up here. You can disagree, but he is correct. The basic stance requires certain elements to be met. Other than that, there are many ways to accomplish a 'workable' stance...and in certain shooting situations we are forced to come up with something creative. If you are out of balance, it will be difficult to swing the cue accurately.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Klopek said:
I STRONGLY disagree with the above statement. How your weight is distributed and where your feet are placed is directly related to the all important issue of balance. Without good balance, warm up strokes can have your upped body swaying to-and-fro.

Okay, so maybe your cue and eyes are aligned, but if your body moves during the stroke, you are no longer striking the cue ball as intended.

Then there's the issue of joint and muscle fatigue. If you squat with your knees deeply bent, you are going to tire very quickly and over time develop weakness in the knees.

If you have your feet too close together and have a long shot to face, you have to strain to get your head back enough to sight down the cue. With that over time comes neck strain and shoulder fatigue.

You watch any top pro, and I offer Efren up as a great example. Watch where he places his feet during different shots. There is a formula for success. The foundation for success in every sport is balance, without it co-ordination cannot reach it's maximum potential.
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:eek: so it doesnt matter that you think your cue in online with the shot when in reality the cue is across that line, further enhancing the problem of delivery...

Free movement doesnt mean squat if the cue cant go straight. Side to side movement of the cue is bad... In any situation...PERIOD.


:cool:


SPINDOKTOR






Scott Lee said:
Straight from pool school:

The stance should be balanced, comfortable, and allow free movement of the cue, along your natural range of motion (pendulum swing). The eyes should be positioned over the cue, such that what is PERCEIVED is accurate.

Eye dominance has nothing to do with shooting pool. Some people SEE a straight line with the cue centered under their dominant eye...others do not. It doesn't make any difference. It's where your cue lines up when you see a straight line that matters. The second half of that equation is being able to deliver the cue in the straight line you perceive.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...
 
Klopek said:
Then there's the issue of joint and muscle fatigue. If you squat with your knees deeply bent, you are going to tire very quickly and over time develop weakness in the knees.

If you have your feet too close together and have a long shot to face, you have to strain to get your head back enough to sight down the cue. With that over time comes neck strain and shoulder fatigue.

You watch any top pro, and I offer Efren up as a great example. Watch where he places his feet during different shots. There is a formula for success.
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I would include balance in stability.

Keep in mind that everyone isn't built the same and they may have physical limitations that dictate what they can and cannot do. Not everyone can do what Efren can.

You might also consider when you are forced to lay on the table with your leg up, or when sitting on the rail to shoot a masse'. The requirements for the stance do not change for these shots.

Comfort is an important factor and comes with being relaxed. Thanks for mentioning this.
 
SPINDOKTOR said:
:eek: so it doesnt matter that you think your cue in online with the shot when in reality the cue is across that line, further enhancing the problem of delivery...

Free movement doesnt mean squat if the cue cant go straight. Side to side movement of the cue is bad... In any situation...PERIOD.
Click to expand...

Scott isn't discarding the need to have the cue on the line of aim. The point he is making is that each of us need to position our eyes so that when we see (perceive) the cue in alignment, it is in alignment with the line of aim.

Everyone is unique including the way the see things. The key is for the shooter to learn the proper position for their eyes.
 
SPINDOKTOR...It is obvious to some of us instructors who are trained in how to teach our students to accurately and repeatably set up and deliver the cuestick in a straight line, that you are not versed in what we teach. That doesn't necessarily mean that you don't know what you're talking about, but it might do you good to actually LEARN our methods, before "poo-pooing" them here! :rolleyes:

I have offered to work with you, so at least you'd have a better understanding of what and how we teach...to ADD to your own teaching skills. You mentioned a couple weeks ago that I had "ducked" you. You know that's simply not true...I don't duck ANYBODY...EVER! Like I said then...the offer is still open, and the ball is in your court!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

SPINDOKTOR said:
:eek: so it doesnt matter that you think your cue in online with the shot when in reality the cue is across that line, further enhancing the problem of delivery...

Free movement doesnt mean squat if the cue cant go straight. Side to side movement of the cue is bad... In any situation...PERIOD.


:cool:


SPINDOKTOR
Click to expand...
 
Stance and alignment do go hand in hand, and there is more to the stance than just the feet.

softshot said:
I'd like some pro's or instructors to chime in on how you keep hitting the cueball in the right spot.. when you are NOT in your textbook stance..

stretched out over the table with one leg in the air trying to line up shooting with a chicken wing that would make Col. Sanders proud...

you gotta shoot like that sometimes...

how do you do it?
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Ah, yes. The OP.

When you can't meet the requirements for the stance (see my previous post), then it's probably a good time to consider use of the mechanical bridge, or a different shot.
 
Scott Lee said:
SPINDOKTOR...It is obvious to some of us instructors who are trained in how to teach our students to accurately and repeatably set up and deliver the cuestick in a straight line, that you are not versed in what we teach. That doesn't necessarily mean that you don't know what you're talking about, but it might do you good to actually LEARN our methods, before "poo-pooing" them here! :rolleyes:

Its apparent to me, VERY that you lack the capacity to fully understand the game. Im not going to agree with you, nor kiss your ass just because your afiliated with the BCA, or members thereof... Like your buddies who keep emailing me, Im not going to Join your club, I have no desire to and will never give into the idea that unless Im "Certified" I wont be taken seriously..Thats rediculous.. :p


I told you before, I must defend my ideals, so here it is, PUT UP OR SHUT UP..

If I know little about the game then you should be able to beat me, If your comming VA soon, or are you gonna duck with that whole dont need to be a player to teach BS... Whitch you have once before, and I let it go, Now you acuse me of spreading poo poo, whitch I will not let go..

for that matter, every BCA instructor, any that wants some, I here baby, come get it. Now go home and practice what you preach, your gonna need it..

I have offered to work with you, so at least you'd have a better understanding of what and how we teach...to ADD to your own teaching skills. You mentioned a couple weeks ago that I had "ducked" you. You know that's simply not true...I don't duck ANYBODY...EVER! Like I said then...the offer is still open, and the ball is in your court!

The offer is above, PM me and we will work out the details
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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SPINDOKTOR WANTS YOU!!!!!!!
 
Thank you all for the discussion..many good points have been raised by everyone....

I agree with Einstein the simplest answer has to be correct..

it all boils down to what Jay Helfert said... "Be Solid, Stay still"

thanks to all you have all helped my game.
 
halhoule said:
try using efrens aiming system, very simple shooting
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yes, i agree.

efren's system: where do i aim to make dis ball with dis stloke? ahh, yes right der, now me shoot!
 
jay helfert said:
"Pool is a game of stances and bridges." Lou Butera, BCA Hall Of Fame member.

"Be solid, stay still." Jay Helfert, shortstop for life.
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Excellent advice Jay. I strive to use the same stance and bridge whenever I can, but at all times your above advice is imperative.
 
Mark Avlon said:
Ah, yes. The OP.

When you can't meet the requirements for the stance (see my previous post), then it's probably a good time to consider use of the mechanical bridge, or a different shot.
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I disagree.

You're going to be jacked up sometimes.
You're going to have balls in the way of where you'd like to place your bridge sometimes.
You're going to be shooting the CB from frozen to the rail sometimes.
You're going to have one leg up on the table sometimes.

Most of the time you're in these situations, they do make the shot more difficult, but many times it's still the shot you have to take, because it's the best way to win from whatever situation you're in.

What you need to do, as a direct answer to the OP, is learn the fundamentals of a mechanically sound stroke, and understand the reasoning behind them. Understand the body geometry that makes up "good alignment". Understand the relationship between right foot placement and right elbow placement. Understand the relationship between grip placement and bridge placement and cue angle.

If you understand why the variables of your stance and body position lead to a good stroke or a bad stroke, then when your stance has to change because the shot demands it, you know how to make the little adjustments so you can still put a good stroke on the ball.

You shouldn't come away from a lesson having memorized "move my right foot back so only the tip of the toe is beneath the cue". You should come away from a lesson knowing "I moved my right foot away from the cue to shift my center to give me room to stroke the cue under my shooting shoulder/elbow, as opposed to underneath my body, which was producing a rightward curve to my stroke." Then you can apply the same logic to other body positions to make sure you have an aligned stroke even in non-standard shooting positions.

-Andrew
 
So...this finally all comes down to who's got bigger balls? LOL You're the one who previously indicated here, in writing, that you wanted to take a lesson from me. Nobody has indicated that you need to be BCA Certified to be taken seriously. Some of us (including Randyg and myself) have indicated that your methods are different from ours, and that you might benefit from knowing what we do. Notice I said different, not particularly WRONG. Randy mentioned pool school...I mentioned a private lesson. A good instructor is willing to look at all options in teaching, and choose those that work best for the student. That is obviously not what you're interested in. Best of luck in your "teaching".:rolleyes: Oh...and I come through VA at least 2-3 times a year!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

SPINDOKTOR said:
SPINDOKTOR WANTS YOU!!!!!!!
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Ofcourse I did, High Quality Video of the stroke is a great idea, I wanted to see for myself, I have access to high quality equipment myself, I thought I might be able to learn from you on this alone, not nessasarily about pool.. as I know little about the equipment and software to do what I was thinking you are doing...

Ive tried to be nice to you and RandyG, I really have, I even added a link to my site for Randy for awhile, trying to be a nice guy when he basicaly insulted me from the start.

Im open to the idea to learn, I wish I knew everything there is to know about pool, if this is the case you yourself have strange methods to try to get someone to learn... :confused:

The reality is I dont know obviously what you and randy think you know, and if you want me to conceed and learn what you think I dont know, then you need to go about it in a differnt way, I will not be intimidated, and I thrive on competition, so your just playing my game.

I think nothing badly of the BCA or its instructors, without the BCA the billiards comunity would suffer, If given the chance I would do all I could to support the BCA, that I assure you, but you cant intimidate me, I grew up hard, and my values are set in stone. HOWEVER, I am a student of the game as well, and I am open to learning new things.. Leave my pride out of it, and I can get along with you.. thats a promise.

SPINDOKTOR








Scott Lee said:
So...this finally all comes down to who's got bigger balls? LOL You're the one who previously indicated here, in writing, that you wanted to take a lesson from me. Nobody has indicated that you need to be BCA Certified to be taken seriously. Some of us (including Randyg and myself) have indicated that your methods are different from ours, and that you might benefit from knowing what we do. Notice I said different, not particularly WRONG. Randy mentioned pool school...I mentioned a private lesson. A good instructor is willing to look at all options in teaching, and choose those that work best for the student. That is obviously not what you're interested in. Best of luck in your "teaching".:rolleyes: Oh...and I come through VA at least 2-3 times a year!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...
 
Andrew Manning said:
I disagree.

You're going to be jacked up sometimes.
You're going to have balls in the way of where you'd like to place your bridge sometimes.
You're going to be shooting the CB from frozen to the rail sometimes.
You're going to have one leg up on the table sometimes.

Most of the time you're in these situations, they do make the shot more difficult, but many times it's still the shot you have to take, because it's the best way to win from whatever situation you're in.
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Andrew, you make a very good point. There are times when it's best to break the rules, and there are many rules that at times should be broken. When we do break the rules, here should be a good reason for doing so.

I would argue that it's still possible to have a good stance under the conditions you listed. Laying on the table, for example, can be a very comfortable and stable stance that allows for accurate movement of the cue. A mechanical bridge can work well when shooting over balls, and it shouldn't cause one to not have a good stance. Another example would be when the cue ball in frozen to the rail. I don't know of a reason why a shooter can't make a good stance when shooting off the rail. Keep in mind that the stance may change under these circumstances, but there isn't a reason it can't remain a good one.

I not trying to be argumentative. A shooter can choose to do what they want, but changes from their normal style should be done with a purpose that increases their chances of success.
 
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