How important is the cue ball?

Every single tournament I play in uses a measle ball. Every single gambling match I've been in or watched they were using the measle ball. It's been like this for many years now. Only tournament I go to that doesn't use the measle ball is the us open 8/10ball in Vegas which uses the cyclops ball. And yes me and many other pros are lost trying to control that goofy cue ball.


Sorry for digging up an older thread, but I have to add my long winded $0.02

**WALL OF TEXT WARNING**

Take this for what it's worth...it could be total BS, but this is what I believe based off of my experience interacting with these balls over the years....and, from what I remember on the old Usenet (before www forums and before AZB forum) from rec.sport.billiards which I personally feel had validated what I experienced....

I remember there was a thread about it, and someone had some info from someone at Aramith finally shedding light on the topic. Aramith for a long time would just tell folks they're all the same. But that can't be, if the were the same, why are they being marked differently?


The Centennials were made by Aramith, and were identical to the Super Pros. ( in those days there was some question among players as to who made Brunswick's balls) At the time, the Super Pros had the Red Triangle cue ball. Centennials had the blue circle. These were identical. They are also identical to the object balls. Later on, the Red Triangle was changed to an Aramith logo cue ball. But it was all the same.

This is all before the measles ball.

Centennials are marked blue circle only to differentiate them for branding purposes. It's to appear different, despite not being different.

Blue Circle = Red Triangle = Aramith Logo = Measles


Now, as to the Red Circle ball (assuming a genuine one)...


The Red Circle cue ball is the same diameter, same weight. However, it was made of a different resin. It was made out of the same resin as the Aramith Carom balls. It was also "finished" a bit differently.

First, on the resin. Density is the same, so weight is the same. The resin is different because it had different properties. I don't remember the engineering terms for it, but it is every so slightly more "bouncy" ...the term isn't elasticity...but something like that.

This is why the Red Circle seems to move more or react off of object balls differently (more actively) than the blue circle or redtriangle/aramithlogo/measles ball.


Most players are oblivious to this, as they never achieve a high level or just aren't sensitive to these fine differences. I've met a lot of pretty decent players who wouldn't notice much difference between a Le Pro and Triangle tip back in the day, but there was a difference you can certainly feel. So people are different in their perceptive abilities.

Anyway, back to the cueballs. Supposedly, the resin is different on the Carom balls because they are larger and heavier than pool balls. So to achieve the kind of response and interaction between the balls they're looking for - they use a slightly different resin.

The Red Circle is also finished differently. It does not have the same thick "clear" outer layer if you can call it that. It's more white to the surface if that makes sense. The polish and surface is different too.

Notice how the measles, blue circle, red triangle all are chalk magnets in humid conditions more than the red circle. For some reason, the red circles tend to cling the chalk marks less. The other balls cling chalk the same way object balls do if you hit an object ball with your cue. Throughout the years, even on the web - many players have observed the red circle stays cleaner. Fake ones are the opposite. Those get chalk stains on them, especially the really poor fakes.


Aside from that, the main factor is how they play. The red circle just plain plays different. It isn't because of diameter or weight. A lot of people say the other balls "push through" or hit the object balls more solidly. Yes, in a sense compared to the red circle which seems to deflect off OB more. The red circle is more bouncy. Again, very, very slightly but it is noticeable. Pro lever players know there's a difference.

There are a few reasons there is mass confusion on the topic --

1. Red Circles are by far the most counterfeited ball out there. So results can vary greatly. $15 for an Aramith, or $3 for a Chinese knock-off? Lotta rooms get whatever saves them money. Most players are bangers anyway and these balls are destined to hit the floor a lot and get chipped.

2. Red Circles are the most popular pool hall ball by far - thus, these balls in most pool rooms are severely worn down. Which means they are actually smaller than the other balls, and actually lighter as a result of wear through abrasion. So they draw easier, and follow worse.

You can test this by putting them side by side with other balls against a rail. OR try racking the cueball in the middle in place of the 9, 10 or 8 ball. It will have lot of wiggle room around in there.

3. There's the insidious "speed" cue balls that I've heard some call them. Or draw cue balls. These balls have a red circle on them, but they are intentionally lighter while being the same size. Some of these are just a touch too white. They aren't that sorta off-white creme that normal balls are. They are a shade whiter. It isn't as white as the vinyl fake balls you might see with a toy set. Not ultra white. Just a touch brighter than Aramiths.

Why do these exist? These balls exist because some room owners like to use them as they make the game "easier" and more fun for novice players.

It's the same reason big sloppy sewer pockets exist. They eat balls. Balls going in holes makes casual players feel better. It's more fun to make balls than to constantly miss. Frustration is not fun. Success is fun. Fun people drink more and spend more and come back more. Table manufacturers do not save a single cent making a 5" pocket instead of a 4.5"...

Your casual player who doesn't even own their own cue doesn't have fun trying to make balls on a pro-cut Diamond. 5.25" sewers with shallow angle rails gobble up balls and people feel like super stars and impress their lady friends while slamming beers. They can do all their tom cruise antics too while playing werewolves of london on the juke.

Among newbies, awesome draw = pool excellence. Drawing a ball 2 feet without a miscue is fist pump business right there.

It's the same in the bowling world. There's different pins, of different weights and materials. Bowling alleys use lighter pins of a material that react explosively relative to how they are hit compared to pins used in Professional matches. This way, a total newbie who slow rolls a ball gets action on the pins like an intermediate player might. This leads to artificially higher scores.
 
Sorry for digging up an older thread, but I have to add my long winded $0.02

**WALL OF TEXT WARNING**

Take this for what it's worth...it could be total BS, but this is what I believe based off of my experience interacting with these balls over the years....and, from what I remember on the old Usenet (before www forums and before AZB forum) from rec.sport.billiards which I personally feel had validated what I experienced....

I remember there was a thread about it, and someone had some info from someone at Aramith finally shedding light on the topic. Aramith for a long time would just tell folks they're all the same. But that can't be, if the were the same, why are they being marked differently?


The Centennials were made by Aramith, and were identical to the Super Pros. ( in those days there was some question among players as to who made Brunswick's balls) At the time, the Super Pros had the Red Triangle cue ball. Centennials had the blue circle. These were identical. They are also identical to the object balls. Later on, the Red Triangle was changed to an Aramith logo cue ball. But it was all the same.

This is all before the measles ball.

Centennials are marked blue circle only to differentiate them for branding purposes. It's to appear different, despite not being different.

Blue Circle = Red Triangle = Aramith Logo = Measles


Now, as to the Red Circle ball (assuming a genuine one)...


The Red Circle cue ball is the same diameter, same weight. However, it was made of a different resin. It was made out of the same resin as the Aramith Carom balls. It was also "finished" a bit differently.

First, on the resin. Density is the same, so weight is the same. The resin is different because it had different properties. I don't remember the engineering terms for it, but it is every so slightly more "bouncy" ...the term isn't elasticity...but something like that.

This is why the Red Circle seems to move more or react off of object balls differently (more actively) than the blue circle or redtriangle/aramithlogo/measles ball.


Most players are oblivious to this, as they never achieve a high level or just aren't sensitive to these fine differences. I've met a lot of pretty decent players who wouldn't notice much difference between a Le Pro and Triangle tip back in the day, but there was a difference you can certainly feel. So people are different in their perceptive abilities.

Anyway, back to the cueballs. Supposedly, the resin is different on the Carom balls because they are larger and heavier than pool balls. So to achieve the kind of response and interaction between the balls they're looking for - they use a slightly different resin.

The Red Circle is also finished differently. It does not have the same thick "clear" outer layer if you can call it that. It's more white to the surface if that makes sense. The polish and surface is different too.

Notice how the measles, blue circle, red triangle all are chalk magnets in humid conditions more than the red circle. For some reason, the red circles tend to cling the chalk marks less. The other balls cling chalk the same way object balls do if you hit an object ball with your cue. Throughout the years, even on the web - many players have observed the red circle stays cleaner. Fake ones are the opposite. Those get chalk stains on them, especially the really poor fakes.


Aside from that, the main factor is how they play. The red circle just plain plays different. It isn't because of diameter or weight. A lot of people say the other balls "push through" or hit the object balls more solidly. Yes, in a sense compared to the red circle which seems to deflect off OB more. The red circle is more bouncy. Again, very, very slightly but it is noticeable. Pro lever players know there's a difference.

There are a few reasons there is mass confusion on the topic --

1. Red Circles are by far the most counterfeited ball out there. So results can vary greatly. $15 for an Aramith, or $3 for a Chinese knock-off? Lotta rooms get whatever saves them money. Most players are bangers anyway and these balls are destined to hit the floor a lot and get chipped.

2. Red Circles are the most popular pool hall ball by far - thus, these balls in most pool rooms are severely worn down. Which means they are actually smaller than the other balls, and actually lighter as a result of wear through abrasion. So they draw easier, and follow worse.

You can test this by putting them side by side with other balls against a rail. OR try racking the cueball in the middle in place of the 9, 10 or 8 ball. It will have lot of wiggle room around in there.

3. There's the insidious "speed" cue balls that I've heard some call them. Or draw cue balls. These balls have a red circle on them, but they are intentionally lighter while being the same size. Some of these are just a touch too white. They aren't that sorta off-white creme that normal balls are. They are a shade whiter. It isn't as white as the vinyl fake balls you might see with a toy set. Not ultra white. Just a touch brighter than Aramiths.

Why do these exist? These balls exist because some room owners like to use them as they make the game "easier" and more fun for novice players.

It's the same reason big sloppy sewer pockets exist. They eat balls. Balls going in holes makes casual players feel better. It's more fun to make balls than to constantly miss. Frustration is not fun. Success is fun. Fun people drink more and spend more and come back more. Table manufacturers do not save a single cent making a 5" pocket instead of a 4.5"...

Your casual player who doesn't even own their own cue doesn't have fun trying to make balls on a pro-cut Diamond. 5.25" sewers with shallow angle rails gobble up balls and people feel like super stars and impress their lady friends while slamming beers. They can do all their tom cruise antics too while playing werewolves of london on the juke.

Among newbies, awesome draw = pool excellence. Drawing a ball 2 feet without a miscue is fist pump business right there.

It's the same in the bowling world. There's different pins, of different weights and materials. Bowling alleys use lighter pins of a material that react explosively relative to how they are hit compared to pins used in Professional matches. This way, a total newbie who slow rolls a ball gets action on the pins like an intermediate player might. This leads to artificially higher scores.
Interesting post. If the blue circle, Aramith Logo, and Measles ball are all exactly the same, then why do the pros all seem to prefer the measles ball?

Also, in my experience of 22 years running a poolroom and having used all three of these balls as well as the red circle, and religiously cleaning and polishing all our sets of balls once weekly, the blue circle is easily the one of the four that is the hardest to keep nice and clean looking, and the chalk marks don't seem to completely come out even when I polish them. By contrast, the Aramith Logo cue ball is the one that is the easiest to keep clean.
 
:thumbup:
They're all the same as far as I'm concerned.

Worrying about it is going to hurt your game much more than any minute inconsistency in the balls.
If its white and round i'm good. You usually adjust pretty quick.
 
I own 6 cue balls but have played with several others that were different then mine, but will confine this post to the ones I own. I am also retired and play pool just about every day, and have a small scale and a digital micrometer. I agree with the poster that said there should be more uniform specs for balls, tables, ect. but don't see that happening anytime soon because everybody in my experience always seems to be looking for anything that will give them an edge, be it the table, the balls, and so on.

I play with Super Aramith balls almost always and have 2 friends that have the measles cb's. I also have a measles cb but their measles cb's are a lighter/whiter color then mine. Mine seems to get more blue stains on it then their measles balls do. They all seem to play about the same, but definitely different then my red logo, and red circle cb's.

I also have a friend that recently bought a red circle cb. My red circle cb is much older then his, and again a lighter color. His red circle cb is the same color and weight, 5.92oz, as my red logo cue ball. My red circle cue ball weighs 5.67oz. All these balls play different except the 3 measles balls which I think play the same even though mine is more the color of my friends red circle and my red logo cb.

Just out of curiosity I took my scale to the pool room I like and weighed 2 or 3 of their red circle cb's, and they were all in the 5.4 to 5.5oz range. I recently went to the Derby and they were using the Cyclops cb with the big red dot. So again being curious I got one from Seyberts and really like it. It plays like my 5.67oz red circle but weighs 5.99oz, the same as my green logo bar box cb that they use on Valley tables.

Lastly I read somewhere that Saluc bought out Aramith so that's why some of the same cb's may look and weigh and play different, and that the measles cb has a caroom finish on it was news to me and interesting to know.

I agree that the good players adjust to the conditions, but it would be nice if things were a little bit more uniform.
 
Interesting post. If the blue circle, Aramith Logo, and Measles ball are all exactly the same, then why do the pros all seem to prefer the measles ball?


That is a good question. I have a theory, because it is also how I feel about it myself and also the comments I've heard made by several pros.

My theory is that because the measles ball was brand new, made only by Aramith and wasn't counterfeited early on - and was identical to the object balls, it was a big success.

$25-$30. Sealed in the packaging by Aramith through a reputable dealer and you get 100% guarantee you're using a quality, real CB.

It was this desire to be able to confidently acquire a genuine, quality ball that gave it the reputation of being the best ball.

Walking into several billiard supply shops, I've seen CB's sold loose, in buckets...doesn't inspire confidence as to origin or quality.



Also, in my experience of 22 years running a poolroom and having used all three of these balls as well as the red circle, and religiously cleaning and polishing all our sets of balls once weekly, the blue circle is easily the one of the four that is the hardest to keep nice and clean looking, and the chalk marks don't seem to completely come out even when I polish them. By contrast, the Aramith Logo cue ball is the one that is the easiest to keep clean.


I agree on the blue circle being the dirtiest on average.
 
That is a good question. I have a theory, because it is also how I feel about it myself and also the comments I've heard made by several pros.

My theory is that because the measles ball was brand new, made only by Aramith and wasn't counterfeited early on - and was identical to the object balls, it was a big success.

$25-$30. Sealed in the packaging by Aramith through a reputable dealer and you get 100% guarantee you're using a quality, real CB.

It was this desire to be able to confidently acquire a genuine, quality ball that gave it the reputation of being the best ball.

Walking into several billiard supply shops, I've seen CB's sold loose, in buckets...doesn't inspire confidence as to origin or quality.






I agree on the blue circle being the dirtiest on average.
That makes a lot of sense. Every pro cup cue ball I've purchased from different suppliers always come in the single package, unlike any other cueball I've purchased. However, of course there are knockoff pro cup cue balls that sell for a fraction of the real thing, and even come in different color spots.
 
... Lastly I read somewhere that Saluc bought out Aramith so that's why some of the same cb's may look and weigh and play different, and that the measles cb has a caroom finish on it was news to me and interesting to know. ...

Aramith is just the name that the company (Saluc) uses for their phenolic resin billiard/pool and bowling balls. Saluc also manufactures other things that do not carry the Aramith name.

I imagine the corporate purchase you are thinking of was that Iwan Simonis, the billiard cloth manufacturer, acquired Saluc several years ago.
 
For what it's worth,

Weights of Red Circle and Measle balls. Both are genuine, Red Circle from Neilson's Billiards Ebay, Measle ball from an Aramith set. Both practically new, very little play on either.

Both weigh 168 grams. Perhaps others get different results. But, perhaps some should rethink assumptions.

All the best,
WW
I think that they are manufactured differently and the process of the measle ball results in more even weight distribution. While the red circle has all the weight in the center of the ball .

Just a theory regarding why they play differently despite weighted the same.

Kd

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
Sorry for revival of this old thread. I played Derby and hate the cyclops cue ball. The clear edge is the problem for me. Anyways, the players at Derby can swap out the cue ball and use the measle or red circle as long as they both agree.

So, which ball is best for use with the cyclop balls? They never said what type resin is used for those balls and I don't want to get a measle ball and use it when the red circle is a better match for the cyclops balls. And vice versa!

Kd

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
The glossy finish or coating (whatever its called) might have something to do with it since the balls weigh the same. It seems the red circle plays slicker. To me it seems the cyclop ball plays like its on ice, just slides around more than the others..
It might be worth noting that watching pretty much every Pool Action tv and other streamers major gambling matches with great players over the last four or five years, the players get to choose what balls and conditions and almost always prefer to play with a measle ball. That says alot about the playability of them to me
On another note there are alot more counterfeit red circle and measle balls floating around out there than you might think, so that might explain why some of the balls don't seem to play "true".
 
Last edited:
The cue ball and object balls should be the same weight & diameter
and 2 1\4 “ and 168 grams is what I look for which is the Centennial
Series and also a Aramith Measles cue ball as well.....all match alike.
 
I prefer Aramith balls since they have a reputation and have been the standard used for years before some of these other manufacturers have come in to try to take a piece of the pie. Which IMO is good for the pool playing community since competition breads better quality.

I just bought a brand new set of super pro Aramith balls for my newly acquired table. They came with the measle ball.

I had considered buying a set of the Cyclops, but after a lot of research, I decided not to because of the things I have read and keep hearing about these balls made by the Chinese Rubber factory.

Even though I like the measle ball, I do most of my playing with the Aramith red circle because, as mentioned, it stays cleaner than the measle ball. I also have a Aramith red logo, but between the three, I prefer the red circle.

Just for the fact the red circle stays cleaner is the reason I use it first. A clean ball will roll truer than one that is spotted with chalk and is harder to clean. IMO
 
Last edited:
The glossy finish or coating (whatever its called) might have something to do with it since the balls weigh the same. It seems the red circle plays slicker. To me it seems the cyclop ball plays like its on ice, just slides around more than the others..
It might be worth noting that watching pretty much every Pool Action tv and other streamers major gambling matches with great players over the last four or five years, the players get to choose what balls and conditions and almost always prefer to play with a measle ball. That says alot about the playability of them to me
On another note there are alot more counterfeit red circle and measle balls floating around out there than you might think, so that might explain why some of the balls don't seem to play "true".

Actually money talks when it comes to sponsorship of most of the major tournaments.

You will see a fair portion of Cyclops balls used because they put up the money for their advertising. Their advertising and the pro players shown using them sells their balls.
 
Back
Top