How important is the hop on Shane's break?

[(((Satori)))]

Here Shane puts on a breaking clinic. Notice how the cueball reacts. Notice how the top 3 balls react. Awesome stuff.
https://youtu.be/e3YSOu_ew4M

 

[Colin Colenso]

Here Shane puts on a breaking clinic. Notice how the cueball reacts. Notice how the top 3 balls react. Awesome stuff.
https://youtu.be/e3YSOu_ew4M

He produces what seems to be 25+mph breaks effortlessly, mainly utilizing a long arm lever, but with great timing of muscle contractions, which is largely a result of hitting many many power break shots.

This allows him to make an accurate hit on the CB and the 1 ball consistently with almost maximum safe power.

I'd say it gives him a 10+% advantage over his rivals in 10 ball.

AtLarge might be able to enlighten us with some of SVB's recent 10 Ball Wet Break stats and how they compare to some other top players.

Colin

 

[Patrick Johnson]

No. It is pretty common strategy to want the cueball to come back beyond the side pockets so if the cueball goes to a side rail it id past the danger of scratching... or if the cueball gets kicked from a ball coming UP from the rack its not going to get kicked UP into a side pocket. It usually does not go past the side pocket on one hop though. Ideally you want to stay away from the side and park the cueball in the center... a little beyond the side pockets.

The CB rebounds with or without a hop... are you saying hopping the CB helps it rebound farther?

pj
chgo

 

[(((Satori)))]

Im not too concerned with the hop after impact.

I am more concerned with how the oneball shoots toward the corner, seemingly with more speed on Shanes breaks. I was just wondering if coming into the rack airborne assisted this action.

I can find the right angle and hit them square to send the 1 ball slowly up table toward the corner but experimenting with hopping into the rack I have noticed a difference in sending the 1 faster and toward the corner and making the second ball but im not sure if it is actually the hopping that causes this or some other random factor I am not aware of. Of course you cant hop too much or you will fly the table but to me it seems if I visualize a slightly airborne path impacting with a descending blow I get Shane similar results.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I am more concerned with how the oneball shoots toward the corner, seemingly with more speed on Shanes breaks. I was just wondering if coming into the rack airborne assisted this action.

I'm still not very concerned with the marginal dangers of getting kicked around, but I suppose there could be some effect from avoiding the friction of sliding on the cloth.

pj
chgo

 

[(((Satori)))]

I'm still not very concerned with the marginal dangers of getting kicked around, but I suppose there could be some effect from avoiding the friction of sliding on the cloth.

pj
chgo

I was thinking perhaps the slight descending impact allowed the object balls to come out differently.

 

[Poolmanis]

If I remember right I already posted hop gets free route to 1-ball to near corner pocket.
I also said my break went another level after I focus to outcome of cue ball because it tells you how you hit them.
Hard thing to do is keeping the accuracy consistent.
Last week I had best day yet on pool when talking about 10-ball break. Last 11 racks against my friend were 100% times at leat one ball made. 1-ball was always near corner and I made 7 run outs, blew 2 and had to push twice. My opponent were little disappointed because he had only 2 hours playing time and he was basically sitting all time..

 

[(((Satori)))]

If I remember right I already posted hop gets free route to 1-ball to near corner pocket.
I also said my break went another level after I focus to outcome of cue ball because it tells you how you hit them.
Hard thing to do is keeping the accuracy consistent.
Last week I had best day yet on pool when talking about 10-ball break. Last 11 racks against my friend were 100% times at leat one ball made. 1-ball was always near corner and I made 7 run outs, blew 2 and had to push twice. My opponent were little disappointed because he had only 2 hours playing time and he was basically sitting all time..

That is what I was thinking and asking about when I started the thread.

I wonder if there is something to the impact angle theory or if I am simply unnoticably hitting at a different speed when I experiment with this new method.

 

[gxman]

The most amazing display of Shane's break was against Nick the Greek in that race to 50 match. He was getting the same layout and the same balls falling in the same pockets over and over.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Here Shane puts on a breaking clinic. Notice how the cueball reacts. Notice how the top 3 balls react. Awesome stuff.
https://youtu.be/e3YSOu_ew4M

The most amazing display of Shane's break was against Nick the Greek in that race to 50 match. He was getting the same layout and the same balls falling in the same pockets over and over.

You men the above video? I agree, he was very on that day.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I was thinking perhaps the slight descending impact allowed the object balls to come out differently.

This question needs to be asked, but the descending angle is probably around 1 degree from the horizontal I estimate, so hard to see how this would influence the angles the balls take or the speed they move away at.

The next question would be how far above center of the 1 ball the CB strikes, and again, it's a couple of mm and any more loses the white, and it's hard to see any reason how this could assist.

Also, we could look at ascending impacts, after the bounce, which would jump a little higher for the same above center impact.

Again, I see no reason why this would affect the spread of OBs significantly.

Some cloths bounce higher than others, this effects the speed requirement for a descending impact.

But I suspect, it's essentially about hitting the pack straight enough on, and with about the right amount of follow and enough speed such that SVB gets a good spread, hence a wet break 80%ish and keeps the CB pretty central most of the time. Being consistent in those factors is the key, and it may not require any complex secret regarding hop, though the hop is often a footprint evidentiary of the preceding factors.

Colin

 

[dr_dave]

This question needs to be asked, but the descending angle is probably around 1 degree from the horizontal I estimate, so hard to see how this would influence the angles the balls take or the speed they move away at.

The next question would be how far above center of the 1 ball the CB strikes, and again, it's a couple of mm and any more loses the white, and it's hard to see any reason how this could assist.

Also, we could look at ascending impacts, after the bounce, which would jump a little higher for the same above center impact.

Again, I see no reason why this would affect the spread of OBs significantly.

Some cloths bounce higher than others, this effects the speed requirement for a descending impact.

But I suspect, it's essentially about hitting the pack straight enough on, and with about the right amount of follow and enough speed such that SVB gets a good spread, hence a wet break 80%ish and keeps the CB pretty central most of the time. Being consistent in those factors is the key, and it may not require any complex secret regarding hop, though the hop is often a footprint evidentiary of the preceding factors.

Colin

Well stated, Colin! I agree 100%, per my quotes below.

The best break results come from following the advice on the break technique and equipment advice resource page; and concerning CB hop, the CB hop and squat resource page covers things fairly completely.

Regards,
Dave

That's a good point, but I don't think it makes much difference at typical CB trajectory angles coming in. The downside of hitting the 1-ball at a downward angle is that it causes the 1-ball to bounce down into the slate, which will cause a loss of energy and cause the 1-ball to hop some (more lost energy). However, I think all of this is a moot point since the CB usually bounces before reaching the 1-ball, in which case the CB might be more likely to have an upward angle if it hits the 1-ball above the equator. With an upward angle, the higher the CB hits the 1 ball, the higher it will bounce, and the less energy it will deliver to the rack of balls. In this case, the best scenario is to the have the CB land as close as possible to the 1-ball, with as few bounces as possible (ideally, just the 1 bounce off the tip).

BTW, the CB will still hop if it hits the 1-ball just as it contacts the table (because it still has an upward or downward speed component, assuming it hops on the way to the 1 ball, as it the case with a fast-speed break).

Regards,
Dave

With a powerful break (fast CB speed), the CB doesn't need to hit the 1 ball very much above center to get CB to hop, so the "trajectory" is always very flat (unless one elevates the cue more than one should). I can't imagine that a very slight change in CB trajectory could make that much difference in how the 1 ball and 2nd-row balls move (although, I haven't tested this carefully). I think the motion of these balls is affected mostly by the direction the CB comes into the rack (which can easily be changed) and the squareness of the hit.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Colin Colenso]

Well stated, Colin! I agree 100%, per my quotes below.

The best break results come from following the advice on the break technique and equipment advice resource page; and concerning CB hop, the CB hop and squat resource page covers things fairly completely.

Regards,
Dave

A nice collection of ideas of on your page Dave. I can't recall checking that page before, but recall some of the conversations you quoted.

SVB is reminiscent of Evgeny in his style. I wish I had their smoothness and accuracy without the body movement.

At the time of practicing the power break a lot, which after a while I began to get a little RSI, I got some grasp of a break shot that was powerful, a little longer and pretty accurate.

There are some good studies on neuromuscular adaptive training that could add to an advanced knowledge of developing SVB's or Evgeny's or Pagulayan's stroke, but none will truly get it unless they hit a few thousand or more shots and have pretty good fundamentals in place at the beginning of those sessions.

Power with ease is a wonderful sight to see, and to feel when one gets some competency with it.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Neil]

Here Shane puts on a breaking clinic. Notice how the cueball reacts. Notice how the top 3 balls react. Awesome stuff.
https://youtu.be/e3YSOu_ew4M

A few things I took away from that video:

1. Shane does not hit the one dead head on. But strives for a hit to the left of center ob by about 1 mm. This is shown by the cb going to the left after the hit.

2. While striving for a dead center horizontal hit on the cb, he occasionally hits a hair, about a mm, to the left of center. This combined with the slightly off center hit on the one ball is what causes the sideways spin when the cb rebounds back onto the cloth. And, causes the scratches in the side.

3. The one tracks towards the far left corner. The ball behind the one on the break side tracks to the side pocket while the opposite ball tracks towards the opposite side but only comes close to going. The ball next to the back corner ball on the break side tends to go one rail to the far corner. The back two wing balls tend to go four rails with the ball opposite the break side tracking a little longer and sometimes going into the breaker side pocket after two rails.

4. Best breaks where when he hit the cb square with no english, and the one ball a hair to the left.(only about 1 mm to the left)

5. The myth that the cb hop prevents ob collisions is just that, a myth. As Colin stated earlier. The cb doesn't even get high enough for another ball to go under it.

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

5. The myth that the cb hop prevents ob collisions is just that, a myth. As Colin stated earlier. The cb doesn't even get high enough for another ball to go under it.

Probably a myth, but anytime the cueball leaves the table at all part of another ball can go under part of the cueball. This is why I can jump part of a ball using my full cue, but can't jump over one directly in my path very often.

 

[Poolmanis]

T
Some cloths bounce higher than others, this effects the speed requirement for a descending impact.


Colin

Actually it is thickness of slate and how solid table is what affects how much "bounce" is at table. We had place where was most of Finnish big tournaments and sometimes even Eurotour back in days 2000 about. They had cold crown 3 or 4 with double thick slates and you could jump over balls with full cue with ease. You really did not even need jump cue there. Also Snooker tables "Jump" better because of that.

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

Actually it is thickness of slate and how solid table is what affects how much "bounce" is at table. We had place where was most of Finnish big tournaments and sometimes even Eurotour back in days 2000 about. They had cold crown 3 or 4 with double thick slates and you could jump over balls with full cue with ease. You really did not even need jump cue there. Also Snooker tables "Jump" better because of that.

Actually it's both.

Damn I hate people who think that just because it is definitely one thing it can't also be something else. So many factors come into these things that to dismiss one offhand is to show ignorance.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

A few things I took away from that video:

1. Shane does not hit the one dead head on. But strives for a hit to the left of center ob by about 1 mm. This is shown by the cb going to the left after the hit.

2. While striving for a dead center horizontal hit on the cb, he occasionally hits a hair, about a mm, to the left of center. This combined with the slightly off center hit on the one ball is what causes the sideways spin when the cb rebounds back onto the cloth. And, causes the scratches in the side.

3. The one tracks towards the far left corner. The ball behind the one on the break side tracks to the side pocket while the opposite ball tracks towards the opposite side but only comes close to going. The ball next to the back corner ball on the break side tends to go one rail to the far corner. The back two wing balls tend to go four rails with the ball opposite the break side tracking a little longer and sometimes going into the breaker side pocket after two rails.

4. Best breaks where when he hit the cb square with no english, and the one ball a hair to the left.(only about 1 mm to the left)

5. The myth that the cb hop prevents ob collisions is just that, a myth. As Colin stated earlier. The cb doesn't even get high enough for another ball to go under it.

You're confusing a square hit and a dead on hit. When breaking you're never lined up head on. Always off to the left or right. That's called hitting the head ball square. From whoever you break, you want to head ball to be hit square. That makes the cue ball bounce back towards where you break from, and the head ball to travel up table to the corner pocket. Not the 1mm insanity you described.

 

[Neil]

You're confusing a square hit and a dead on hit. When breaking you're never lined up head on. Always off to the left or right. That's called hitting the head ball square. From whoever you break, you want to head ball to be hit square. That makes the cue ball bounce back towards where you break from, and the head ball to travel up table to the corner pocket. Not the 1mm insanity you described.

Not confusing anything at all. Shane was breaking from the right side, and the cb going to the left side on most breaks. That doesn't happen on a dead square hit.

You call it insanity, but it is simple physics. Did you even watch the video to look for those things, or just felt the need to comment with no actual facts available?

 

[(((Satori)))]

This question needs to be asked, but the descending angle is probably around 1 degree from the horizontal I estimate, so hard to see how this would influence the angles the balls take or the speed they move away at.

The next question would be how far above center of the 1 ball the CB strikes, and again, it's a couple of mm and any more loses the white, and it's hard to see any reason how this could assist.

Also, we could look at ascending impacts, after the bounce, which would jump a little higher for the same above center impact.

Again, I see no reason why this would affect the spread of OBs significantly.

Some cloths bounce higher than others, this effects the speed requirement for a descending impact.

But I suspect, it's essentially about hitting the pack straight enough on, and with about the right amount of follow and enough speed such that SVB gets a good spread, hence a wet break 80%ish and keeps the CB pretty central most of the time. Being consistent in those factors is the key, and it may not require any complex secret regarding hop, though the hop is often a footprint evidentiary of the preceding factors.

Colin

Well stated, Colin! I agree 100%, per my quotes below.

The best break results come from following the advice on the break technique and equipment advice resource page; and concerning CB hop, the CB hop and squat resource page covers things fairly completely.

Regards,
Dave

Thanks for both of your responses. You are probably right, I was just considering the possibility.