How Long Does It Take To Adjust To A New Shaft?

[ChrisinNC]

No offense, but it doesn't seem to me like you have the right philosophy about the game if you believe that spin is a major major factor in playing good pool. Center ball and varying degrees of draw and follow are all that is required for 90% of runouts if your stroke has been properly developed.

Overuse of spin is often the difference between running a rack, and running 5 racks. There is a reason why is isn't that hard for middle of the road snooker players to develop into pool champions, but the opposite doesn't appear to be true. Snooker players use very little spin and learn to manage angles and have extremely pure strokes.

Short Bus Russ

I guess the bottom line is I'm not good enough at positioning my cue ball at just the necessary angle to be able to get shape on my next ball without requiring the use of L or R spin no more than 10% of the time, which you claim I should be able to do. I can more likely accept that premise for 14.1, but I have a hard time imagining you can play high level 9-ball only spinning the cue ball on only 10% of your shots.

 

[Cezar Morales]

I guess the bottom line is I'm not good enough at positioning my cue ball at just the necessary angle to be able to get shape on my next ball without requiring the use of L or R spin 90% of the time. I can more likely accept that premise for 14.1, but I have a hard time imagining you can play high level 9-ball only spinning the cue ball on 10% of your shots.

Tony Drago uses the high centre n low center axis on the cue ball on a majority of his shots and only uses side spin when he needs to and he use a minimal while getting a lot of action with his pure stroke.
The taiwanese emphasizes alot on the center axis and when english is needed , usually half a tip is sufficient on modern equipments.

Just sharing

 

[ShortBusRuss]

I guess the bottom line is I'm not good enough at positioning my cue ball at just the necessary angle to be able to get shape on my next ball without requiring the use of L or R spin 90% of the time. I can more likely accept that premise for 14.1, but I have a hard time imagining you can play high level 9-ball only spinning the cue ball on 10% of your shots.

I think you might be surprised to learn that your struggles with getting the correct angle are DUE to your use of english, and not remedied by it.

Speed control is much more precise when not using sidespin. Using sidespin introduces two specific negative effects into position play (amongst others..):

1. The AMOUNT of sidespin is dependent on speed of stroke and tip position/angle at impact, and is necessarily variable, for these reasons. Variable amounts of sidespin will result in longer/shorter travel distances when contacting rails.. This is not conducive to achieving exact position results.

2. Using english on cut shots causes varying amounts of deflection, which can cause the object ball to be overcut/undercut into the pocket. While you still may make the ball, you may run longer/shorter as a result of the english causing an inaccurate hit on the object ball.

Can one play well using lots of english? Sure!! Rodney Morris is a great example. But Rodney has won a single U.S. Open to Shane's 5, and Rodney's U.S. Open win was in an era of slower cloth, where spin was not as punishing.

Earl, from the same time period, was a much more dominant player than Rodney, and stayed closer to center ball, using his stroke to move the ball around the table.

In summary, I would have been a MUCH better player at 23 if I had caught on to moving to center ball quicker. I used SO MUCH inside english, it was ridiculous. Nowadays, I beat much better players than I did when I was younger, while being much less confident, due to lack of practice..

 

[HawaiianEye]

No offense, but it doesn't seem to me like you have the right philosophy about the game if you believe that spin is a major major factor in playing good pool. Center ball and varying degrees of draw and follow are all that is required for 90% of runouts if your stroke has been properly developed.

Overuse of spin is often the difference between running a rack, and running 5 racks. There is a reason why is isn't that hard for middle of the road snooker players to develop into pool champions, but the opposite doesn't appear to be true. Snooker players use very little spin and learn to manage angles and have extremely pure strokes.

Short Bus Russ

I agree 100%.

The majority of people I see that play well make most of their mistakes with the "over use" of spin on the cue ball.

If they managed their angles better and had more consistent speed control they would play a lot better.

If you try to calculate angle, spin, speed, deflection, swerve, etc., etc., etc., on every shot it over taxes your brain.

I play inside on almost every shot if I can and I use a consistent speed on most of my shots. I hit them "firm" even if they are short shots and the object ball is close to the hole. I don't like babying balls on one shot and then hitting "hard" on the next. Those are variances that are hard to control when you are constantly changing "variations" on every shot.

If you have the proper angle and speed, you don't need English on most shots. English should be used to get you back into line where you don't need it again.

 

[crazysnake]

...shafts that agree with you... You should have a very clearly defined expectation of what you want to happen when you execute a shot. Any adjustments that you need to make should be minimal. It shouldn't take more than 1 or 2 sessions at the table to play comfortably and confidently with your new shaft.

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[Scott Lee]

My experience is similar to Tin Man's. It's never taken me more than a day to get "used to" any shaft/tip/joint...and that covers almost 50 years of playing. In my mind, the difference is your own personal mastery of your stroke. I teach my students how to "own" their strokes. When you own your stroke, you can adjust to anything (equipment, table conditions, etc) much more quickly than someone who just doesn't have that same amount of confidence in their stroke.

When you own your stroke, you never have to "warm up". When you own your stroke, you can set your cue down for an hour, a day, a week, a month, even a year or more...and in 10 minutes be playing at the same speed as when you set your cue down! When you own your stroke, consistent speed control is very easy to achieve, because your swing is always the same...more speed, less speed...but always the same stroke. These are the hallmarks of SPF teaching...to allow the student to develop their own process (with the instructor's assistance), and learn diagnostic tools, so they can analyze an error immediately, and correct it the next time at the table.

It took me 30 shots to get used to the first Revo 12.9. That was at the SBE. It was 30 days from when I first tried the Revo to when I had my own. In those 30 days I played with the LD shafts I had played with for years (Tiger ProX & McDermott G-Core). There was no adjustment period to the Revo...for me. I played exclusively with that shaft for a year, until the 12.4 Revo came out. Then I switched to that shaft...again with zero need for any adjustment. I've been playing with the 12.4 since then. I've even done experiments in the past few months, where I experimented with shooting while alternating shots between straight maple, maple LD, and carbon fiber...where I was able to adjust with each shot for whatever cue I had in my hand.

I know I'm not alone with the quick adjustment to the Revo. Two of my fellow instructors, Lance Cowles and Randy Goettlicher each have been able to immediately adjust to playing with the Revo shafts...and prefer them to the wood shafts they were playing with.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Ghosst, I understand the point you are making. Each person IS different and I can understand that my experience may not be the same as everyone else's.

That said, I view adjusting to a new shaft as a skill, and the attitudes and expectations we hold surrounding this might impact that experience. I believe anyone taking more than a few days to adjust doesn't have the optimal attitude and is putting themselves through needless pain. In other words if someone dives in and tells themselves it will only take a few hours they might adjust much, much more quickly than if they assume it will take months or years. In that light I shared my experience hoping that other people knowing what is possible would avoid making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[crazysnake]

My experience is similar to Tin Man's. It's never taken me more than a day to get "used to" any shaft/tip/joint...and that covers almost 50 years of playing. In my mind, the difference is your own personal mastery of your stroke. I teach my students how to "own" their strokes. When you own your stroke, you can adjust to anything (equipment, table conditions, etc) much more quickly than someone who just doesn't have that same amount of confidence in their stroke.

When you own your stroke, you never have to "warm up". When you own your stroke, you can set your cue down for an hour, a day, a week, a month, even a year or more...and in 10 minutes be playing at the same speed as when you set your cue down! When you own your stroke, consistent speed control is very easy to achieve, because your swing is always the same...more speed, less speed...but always the same stroke. These are the hallmarks of SPF teaching...to allow the student to develop their own process (with the instructor's assistance), and learn diagnostic tools, so they can analyze an error immediately, and correct it the next time at the table.

It took me 30 shots to get used to the first Revo 12.9. That was at the SBE. It was 30 days from when I first tried the Revo to when I had my own. In those 30 days I played with the LD shafts I had played with for years (Tiger ProX & McDermott G-Core). There was no adjustment period to the Revo...for me. I played exclusively with that shaft for a year, until the 12.4 Revo came out. Then I switched to that shaft...again with zero need for any adjustment. I've been playing with the 12.4 since then. I've even done experiments in the past few months, where I experimented with shooting while alternating shots between straight maple, maple LD, and carbon fiber...where I was able to adjust with each shot for whatever cue I had in my hand.

I know I'm not alone with the quick adjustment to the Revo. Two of my fellow instructors, Lance Cowles and Randy Goettlicher each have been able to immediately adjust to playing with the Revo shafts...and prefer them to the wood shafts they were playing with.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott nailed it.

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[HawaiianEye]

When you own your stroke, you never have to "warm up". When you own your stroke, you can set your cue down for an hour, a day, a week, a month, even a year or more...and in 10 minutes be playing at the same speed as when you set your cue down!
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I'll be sure to tell this to SVB when I see him.

He's won something like three tournaments in a row now and he doesn't need to "warm up" or practice anymore...he is wasting his time.

He should be able to win three or four more tournaments in a row because he will be "playing at the same speed he was when he put his cue down after the first three wins".

Thanks for the tip.

 

[PoolBum]

I was fortunate in that when I switched to a Predator shaft years ago I adjusted immediately. I thought the adjustment was easy, really, because the only real adjustment seemed to be not having to compensate as much for deflection when using inside English. That was it.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

I'll be sure to tell this to SVB when I see him.

He's won something like three tournaments in a row now and he doesn't need to "warm up" or practice anymore...he is wasting his time.

He should be able to win three or four more tournaments in a row because he will be "playing at the same speed he was when he put his cue down after the first three wins".

Thanks for the tip.

Yeah, well.. Lol.. i was making a conscious effort to be less argumentative, but I did want to make the observation that Scott's statement totally ignores completely different levels of muscle memory between players.

I, for example, see a pronounced falling off in my game if I stop playing for a month, and I know my stroke very well.. "Knowing your stroke" will in no way make a difference if your muscles "lose the groove" after only a week or two of not playing.

Some players are born with superior muscle memory. This is a genetic factor that shortcuts their learning curve immensely in the beginning, and lets them play at a high level despite long breaks from the game..

I also have to work a LOT harder at learning a guitar piece and my fingers forget the sequences much more quickly than those with better muscle memory.

 

[Bca8ball]

I've been through too many shaft changes in the past year - don't ask me why. From a Predator Vantage to a Predator Revo to a Mezz EXPro and now most recently to a Mezz WX900. Always searching for that magical cue/shaft that at least mentally will allow me to maximize my potential.

For those of you fairly skilled players that have been through various shaft changes, assuming 3 practice sessions a week for 2-3 hours per session, how many weeks would it realistically take until you really start feeling comfortable with the new shaft? To clarify, I don't mean comfortable with the shaft in a practice session, which obviously is totally different than feeling completely comfortable with the new shaft in a tournament match or serious gambling session - which is what I'm referring to?

I know everyone is different, but I'm guessing at least 3-4 weeks at the very minimum, and possibly 2-3 months to be completely comfortable. Thanks for your feedback.

Ok bare with me here...
in my honest opinion... The difference between practice, and the tournaments/money games you mentioned is the mental part of the game, not the equipment.

There is no set time for getting use to a change on a cue, shaft, both; you will know when you know. Your practice drills should be quantitative to track improvement.
However, you can't get there with constant change; that is a lesson I still re-learn sometimes!
You can perform at a amazing level using a cue off the wall as you learn the cue but add several cues into the mix and you are pulling your hair out.

Find something that feels good. Decide if you are a LD person or not; your choice, your business; however, going back and forth is death your game as well as your confidence in your game.
The kicker is... I am not only talking about the group of LD shafts vs non-LD...

EVERY shaft has deflection, some a lower and higher than others...
Decide the shaft that feel best and stop switching; every manufacture and even the different styles/designs within that manufacture have a different level of deflection.
Every change requires your brain to re-learn the compensation.
You can always attempt to remember where to aim on specific shots but until its natural it will come and go (like under pressure).
Of course, we always remember after we miss...

That said (and in contradiction) some setups will feel better than others and yes it is a feel thing based on weight balance/center point, preference, etc.

For example, I play with a 19oz and have for many years.
I picked up a fairly rare custom cue for my small collection; it felt great, hit great, but within the first few strokes I was commenting about how much lighter this cue was verses mine.
I was thinking maybe 18oz, can't be any more than 18. I wanted to try it at same weight as my shooter so we broke out the scale and to my surprise the damn thing is 19.75...
WTH; it's 3/4oz more than mine. The cue was so well balanced it seriously felt lighter...
Needless to say, it is now my playing cue. Within a couple of weeks I have surpassed the confidence from of my previous cue and the fire is burning and I can't play enough table time.

I am rambling but my point is to stop looking for a time table and isolate your equipment. With the amount of time you mentioned putting in, you should see incremental improvement.

I am still having a hard time understanding your reference towards equipment when it comes to practice vs important games...I understand there is an obvious difference but respectfully, it has nothing to do with the equipment and that mindset needs to go away.

 

[crazysnake]

I find that it is more difficult to adjust table to table, different cue balls, and ball sets, and the ambient hot to cold conditions in a room. Having to adjust to one or more of these during a match or tournament is far more challenging I think.
I'll say again that having a clearly defined expectation of the result you want when you execute a shot is a key to being able to make any adjustment, as well as being able to judge wether the shaft is "agreeable" to you.

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[Scott Lee]

HawiianEye...That's actually funny. Shane is someone who is the epitome of a player who completely owns his stroke. You obviously do not understand the points I was trying to make ...and that's fine. The process is real, and has been documented with thousands of players. Owning your stroke doesn't mean you never miss...SVB misses, just not as much as us here. Shane's stroke allows him to move the CB around the table accurately and effortlessly. Owning your stroke means you'll always be "able" to play well...whether you do or not depends on a lot of variables, attitude being formost. Owning your stroke means creating more opportunities to fall into 'deadstroke', and stay there longer. What I said is that Shane doesn't HAVE to warm up...he just chooses to. He would play well either way.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I'll be sure to tell this to SVB when I see him.

He's won something like three tournaments in a row now and he doesn't need to "warm up" or practice anymore...he is wasting his time.

He should be able to win three or four more tournaments in a row because he will be "playing at the same speed he was when he put his cue down after the first three wins".

Thanks for the tip.

 

[Scott Lee]

First of all, Russ, I don't believe in those severely "different levels of muscle memory". IMO anyone can consciously train themselves (with some help) to create, implement, and ingrain a highly accurate and repeatable set up and delivery system. Some adopt some sort of aiming method(s)...others play strictly by feel. You have to train something consciously before it can move into an unconscious, or rote function.

Second, I said OWN your stroke...not know your stroke. There's a huge difference. You, sir, obviously do not own your stroke...or you wouldn't make the comments you made about being inconsistent if you lay off. Think about learning to ride a 2 wheel bicycle. We learn at a very young age, and within a short time (couple months to a year) we have mastered the bicycle, now being able to ride fast, ride up and down hills, jump curbs ...maybe even riding with no hands!

Now put the bicycle away for 5 years, 20 years, even 50+ years, and get it out again. You would have no problem getting on and pedaling away, without falling over. That's because of long term memory...not 'muscle memory'...although some of the movements riding a bicycle may seem that way. Your pool process can operate at the same totally 'unconscious' level.
What's different between players is their ability to focus, and ability to execute on demand, under pressure, in one try!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Yeah, well.. Lol.. i was making a conscious effort to be less argumentative, but I did want to make the observation that Scott's statement totally ignores completely different levels of muscle memory between players.

I, for example, see a pronounced falling off in my game if I stop playing for a month, and I know my stroke very well.. "Knowing your stroke" will in no way make a difference if your muscles "lose the groove" after only a week or two of not playing.

Some players are born with superior muscle memory. This is a genetic factor that shortcuts their learning curve immensely in the beginning, and lets them play at a high level despite long breaks from the game..

I also have to work a LOT harder at learning a guitar piece and my fingers forget the sequences much more quickly than those with better muscle memory.

 

[garczar]

Why, is your list a little different?

Little story: back in early 80's i was using a MeucciOriginal that i bought from BuddyHall. I liked it and used it a couple of years. Friend told me i needed a JOSS so i ordered a 4pt. from Danny. Steel joint, ivory ferules. TOTAL polar-opposite of the Meucci. Adjustment time? About 2 days. Did it squirt more? Yep and i just adjusted without thinking. Just my $.02 here but a lot of players waaaaaay overthink the equipment deal. It ain't rocket science.

 

[Taxi]

It's similar to asking what the best "xxxx" is; answers will vary depending on the person asked.

I tried out a Revo and aside from feeling dead it wasn't too much of a difference over my OB. A little stiffer, and less deflection, but it wasn't too terribly far off. Then again, that's me.

If it took John 2 years, then that was his experience.

I just switched from a Schon I've had for 10 years to a Predator cue with a Revo 12.9 and a soft Victory tip, and it took me about 2 days to have it feel comfortable. And when I got another 12.9 with a extra soft Kamui, the adjustment was almost instantaneous. I still can't believe how much English that Revo imparts, and how much softer it lets me stroke.

 

[ChrisinNC]

There's been a number of excellent replies on this thread, and I appreciate it. I've come to the realization I need to make a decision and stick to one shaft, practice more, and attempt to play better position in leaving the correct angles, so I don't have to spin the cue ball as much.

 

[garczar]

There's been a number of excellent replies on this thread, and I appreciate it. I've come to the realization I need to make a decision and stick to one shaft, practice more, and attempt to play better position in leaving the correct angles, so I don't have to spin the cue ball as much.

Totally agree. Spin CAN be a useful tool but its kinda like drinkin' from a firehose, REALLY easy to get too much.

 

[pt109]

Totally agree. Spin CAN be a useful tool but its kinda like drinkin' from a firehose, REALLY easy to get too much.

I’m quoting this ‘cause it’s so quotable.

 

[crazysnake]

Bingo!

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