How long is your bridge?

Dhakala asked about bridge length for cues of different pivot points. I thought I'd add a couple of observations.

In Reno I got the chance to spend a little more time on the tables and I was surprised to find that my effective pivot point for using BHE was considerably shorter than it is when I play at home.

The reason is that the atmosphere and hence cloth were much drier in Reno..and probably the cloth wasn't so saturated with chalk dust. This meant there was less swerve. I had underestimated the effect swerve has in turning the CB on my table.

For a firmish stroke, using inside english (same contact point required, which isn't true for outside english), at home I bridge at 14-15" for the BHE to work accurately. For the same shot at Reno, a bridge length of 9-10" was required.

Using BHE accurately for a wide range of shots requires a lot of knowledge and adjustments, but it's very useful if you can build this knowledge and adapt it readily to various playing conditions.

For those who want to know more about BHE and pivot points, here is a video (warning, crappy quality) I made to try to explain the basic concepts:
http://www.cue-tv.com/blog/_archives/2006/8/8/2209739.html

Colin
 
Colin Colenso said:
Certainly a player with a bad stroke is more likely to hit the CB further from his aim with a long bridge than with a short one, but that error is compensated for in a couple of ways.
Click to expand...

What are those ways, Colin?

2. Also, due to the squirt effect, it turns out that most shots with decent cues, played with a bridge length around 14" will travel very close to the original line of aim, even when some unintended sidespin is applied. This tends to reduce the error significantly I find.
Click to expand...

If your cue's pivot point is around 14 inches and the unintended sidespin is unintentionally applied to the correct side of the cue ball.

I suppose one definition of "decent cue" is a cue whose pivot point is at one's preferred bridge length. Add pivot point to "first harmonic node" and bridge length as things that should be at the distance from the tip that corresponds to the length of one's penis, or the length of penises with which one has the most experience.

We're getting closer and closer to the answer, "42"! :cool:
 
Colin Colenso said:
In Reno I got the chance to spend a little more time on the tables and I was surprised to find that my effective pivot point for using BHE was considerably shorter than it is when I play at home.

The reason is that the atmosphere and hence cloth were much drier in Reno..and probably the cloth wasn't so saturated with chalk dust. This meant there was less swerve. I had underestimated the effect swerve has in turning the CB on my table.
Click to expand...

Excellent, Colin! You play in the present moment, not in the past, and accept Oneness with the entire Universe. Very Zen!

There goes the notion of measuring a prospective cue's pivot point. Might as well shop for a pet that stays put.

Using BHE accurately for a wide range of shots requires a lot of knowledge and adjustments, but it's very useful if you can build this knowledge and adapt it readily to various playing conditions.
Click to expand...

The knowledge is acquired straightforwardly. The adaptation is what gives most people problems.

For those who want to know more about BHE and pivot points, here is a video (warning, crappy quality) I made to try to explain the basic concepts:
http://www.cue-tv.com/blog/_archives/2006/8/8/2209739.html
Click to expand...

Not bad for a mobile phone! The audio is good; was it recorded on the phone's mic?

Great demonstrations and explanations of pivot point, BHE, and throw!
 
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Colin Colenso said:
RJ,
I've thought about this a bit and I'm not sure that the shorter bridge length is more reliable for players without a nice smooth straight stroke.

Certainly a player with a bad stroke is more likely to hit the CB further from his aim with a long bridge than with a short one, but that error is compensated for in a couple of ways.

I know when I am forced to bridge short, such as when near a rail, that if I don't stroke very accurately then I can unintentionally change the line of shot significantly.

The two mechanisms are:
1. On a longish bridge, say 14", hitting the CB 1mm to the side, requires a change in the direction of the cue of say X degrees. With a 7" bridge length, the same 1mm offset changes the angle of the cue by 2X degrees.

2. Also, due to the squirt effect, it turns out that most shots with decent cues, played with a bridge length around 14" will travel very close to the original line of aim, even when some unintended sidespin is applied. This tends to reduce the error significantly I find.

Possibly the greatest advantage of a shorter bridge is that it allows more consistant striking for height, such as draw, stun back, stun through etc type shots. But there is also the matter of positional speed judgement, which tends to be easier with a longer stroke.

Just some thoughts / observations.

Colin
Click to expand...


Interesting observations for sure and your input is allways appreciated.

I guess it's different strokes for different folks when it comes to bridge lengths and both bridges have their advantages and disadvantages.

I guess the key is to find out what bridge length is appropriate to the shot situation we encounter.
RJ.
 
Dhakala said:
What are those ways, Colin?
Click to expand...
The ways were the two I listed. That the cue angle changes less for the same offset for a longer bridge, and that the longer bridge is likely closer to the cue's pivot point. This second aspect is by far the most significant.


If your cue's pivot point is around 14 inches and the unintended sidespin is unintentionally applied to the correct side of the cue ball.

I suppose one definition of "decent cue" is a cue whose pivot point is at one's preferred bridge length. Add pivot point to "first harmonic node" and bridge length as things that should be at the distance from the tip that corresponds to the length of one's penis, or the length of penises with which one has the most experience.

We're getting closer and closer to the answer, "42"! :cool:
Click to expand...
Yes, I understand the Hitchhiker's 42 reference:p

I haven't done a bunch of scientific testing of tons of cues, but the cues I have tested I found that the pivot point is quite similar. I would now estimate that length at around 10" for a good stiff shaft of reasonably low squirt on a fast low friction cloth at medium-firm speed. On a grippier cloth, the effective pivot point will creep toward the 15" range as seen in my video. A predator 314 shaft pivot point appears to be only a couple of inches longer from the few chances I've had to experiment with them.

Some really cheap rack cues and some whippy shaft models such as one Meucci I tried has significantly shorter pivot points, perhaps 6" on a fast cloth and 9-10" on a grippier cloth at medium-firm speeds.

I don't think harmonic vibrations have anything to do with it. The pivot point is simply a curious and useful effect of a cue's squirt characteristic, which appears to be determined by tip-end-mass and shaft stiffness primarily.

High squirt cues have shorter pivot points.

Note that it can be beneficial to have a cue with higher squirt (shorter pivot point) for a lot of shots that are played with english at low speeds using BHE aiming. Using normal bridge lengths with these cues require less adjustment than for low squirt cues.

For players with short bridge lengths, and especially if they do not play a lot of power shots with english, they would be better off with a high squirt cue if they want to utilize BHE as an english aiming system.

The very low squirt cues are actually more useful for what is called parallel aiming, which is basically just lining the shot up with the cue aligned to where it will strike the CB.

But it's worth noting that changes in cloth conditions, speed of shot, angle of shot, IE or OE, are still significant variables for the parallel aimers to overcome. They basically need to learn to adjust to all these by feel. Whereas, by using the BHE method, all such variable can be narrowed down by an accumulation of knowledge of the required adjustments.

Colin
 
Dhakala said:
Excellent, Colin! You play in the present moment, not in the past, and accept Oneness with the entire Universe. Very Zen!

There goes the notion of measuring a prospective cue's pivot point. Might as well shop for a pet that stays put.



The knowledge is acquired straightforwardly. The adaptation is what gives most people problems.

For those who want to know more about BHE and pivot points, here is a video (warning, crappy quality) I made to try to explain the basic concepts:
http://www.cue-tv.com/blog/_archives/2006/8/8/2209739.html


Not bad for a mobile phone! The audio is good; was it recorded on the phone's mic?

Great demonstrations and explanations of pivot point, BHE, and throw!
Click to expand...
Thanks mate. Yes, the audio was just from the mobile microphone.

I am planning to get a decent video camera soon and make some better, well planned and edited videos.

Colin
 
recoveryjones said:
Interesting observations for sure and your input is allways appreciated.

I guess it's different strokes for different folks when it comes to bridge lengths and both bridges have their advantages and disadvantages.

I guess the key is to find out what bridge length is appropriate to the shot situation we encounter.
RJ.
Click to expand...
True RJ,
I think the key is to be adaptable, so that if we're forced to play with a short or long bridge, or an elevated shot etc, we have some understanding on how to compensate.

One thing that has become more clear to me watching the pros has been that the level of potting skill is not extremely important. They all pot pretty well good enough, and most guys can learn to pot at this standard after a few years of hard practice and some fine tuning for a tourney.

Positional play is significantly more important than potting at this level, but even more important is breaking and game management (choice of shots).

So if someone prefers playing with a shorter bridge, then I'm sure they can adapt well enough.

An example is Cliff Thorburn who played with an extremely short backswing when at the top of his snooker game. Here is a video of him making a 147 using his 2" poke shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh2NOS9HH-w

Colin
 
Colin Colenso said:
Dhakala asked about bridge length for cues of different pivot points. I thought I'd add a couple of observations.

In Reno I got the chance to spend a little more time on the tables and I was surprised to find that my effective pivot point for using BHE was considerably shorter than it is when I play at home.

The reason is that the atmosphere and hence cloth were much drier in Reno..and probably the cloth wasn't so saturated with chalk dust. This meant there was less swerve. I had underestimated the effect swerve has in turning the CB on my table.

For a firmish stroke, using inside english (same contact point required, which isn't true for outside english), at home I bridge at 14-15" for the BHE to work accurately. For the same shot at Reno, a bridge length of 9-10" was required.

Using BHE accurately for a wide range of shots requires a lot of knowledge and adjustments, but it's very useful if you can build this knowledge and adapt it readily to various playing conditions.

For those who want to know more about BHE and pivot points, here is a video (warning, crappy quality) I made to try to explain the basic concepts:
http://www.cue-tv.com/blog/_archives/2006/8/8/2209739.html

Colin
Click to expand...

Good on you to be able to adapt table to table as that takes experience.The same thing I find applies to kicking from pool hall to pool hall.


Anyways,I read somewhere on a billiard forum to vary your bridge length for backhand english depending on whether you are shooting a hard(power) shot or a slower rolling (finesse) shot.

For a hard power shot the poster reccomended a shorter bridge when applying backhand english.For a slow finnesse shot with backhand english,he reccomended a long bridge.

This kind of goes against the grain of traditional teaching which advocates a long bridge for power and a short bridge for finnesse.

I tried(with a little bridge length tweeking) this prescribed method on the pool table and found it to be right on and true to the teaching, at least for me and the guy who posted this info.

Remember I'm talking about these bridge lengths only as they apply to using backhand english,because normally for sure more power can be obtained with a longer bridge.

I know you like to experiment around with this stuff Colin(and others), so set up a few shots and let me know what you think.Try medium to short length shots as it's well know that BHE can become less reliable the longer the shot is.Shoot them slow and shoot them hard varying your bridge lengths as prescribed as you experiment.

Hey if it works, throw it in your tool box.If it doesn't, throw it in the garbage can.:D Nothing ventured,nothing gained.

RJ

ps.Hey Dhakala.This method has nothing do do whether your male anatomy is relaxed or aroused,so please leave your Zen penis philosophy's out of the discussion.:D :D :D
 
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recoveryjones said:
Here is an article on bridge length by an Advanced certified BCA instructor named Roger Long.
http://www.christianpoolplayers.com/bridgetofar.html

That(above) article seems to make sense to me.
Click to expand...
Here's why I give very little merit to the article you attached. Nowhere does Mr. Long mention people who have a longer bridge but use a short backstroke (example: Pagulayan).

For instance, I use an 8"-10" bridge but for 75% of my shots I only take the cue back 5" or so. Now, if you have a 6" bridge and use all 6" for your backswing, your back arm is doing more behind perpendicular than mine.

What causee the most problems isn't how much shaft is sticking past your bridge, it's how far you take the cue back. If you have a 12" bridge and use a 12" backstroke, your back arm will have lots of room for side to side movement during the forward stroke. If you use a short backstroke, there is less inconsistency during the forward stroke.

There's something else that Mr. Long doesn't consider, a longer bridge offers a longer sighting line. If you get down low on your cue like I do, a longer bridge makes aiming far more accurate, especially while using the closed bridge. Ask Mr. Lonh why snooker players who use 57" cues grip them at the very back by the bumper?. They do this so they get a nice long bridge length, which makes aiming long shots much easier.

As far as contacting the cue ball acurately, I bring my tip right up to the cue ball during my pre-shot routine. I pause with the tip almost touching, but it's what I do next that determines precise contact. With tip at the cue ball, I slide my back grip hand so that it is hanging perpendicular to the floor. This allows me to guarantee that the tip will be contacting the cue ball during the straightest part of my stroke, (the sweet spot if you will).

What Mr. Long should be advising is that people shouldn't have their cue tip 3" away from the cue ball while doing their warm up strokes. When someone does this, the tip position changes during the forward stroke. If you use a pendulum stroke with no elbow drop and cue right up to the cue ball, if your grip hand is perpendicular to the floor, you will be extremely accurate.

Colin Colenso said:
2. Also, due to the squirt effect, it turns out that most shots with decent cues, played with a bridge length around 14" will travel very close to the original line of aim, even when some unintended sidespin is applied. This tends to reduce the error significantly I find.
Click to expand...
Good point Colin. I notice on the Prdator website that they recommend a 14" bridge length in order to receive the most benefit from their technology. Since a lot of pros use Predator shafts, this would explain the migration towards longer bridges. Just a thought.:)
 
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Colin Colenso said:
I don't think harmonic vibrations have anything to do with it. The pivot point is simply a curious and useful effect of a cue's squirt characteristic, which appears to be determined by tip-end-mass and shaft stiffness primarily.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree that tip mass and shaft stiffness are the most significant influencers of squirt and pivot point. But stiffness also influences a shaft's natural frequency and the locations of its harmonic nodes, or points of stillness while the shaft vibrates.

The harmonics of a shaft do not cause it to have particular squirt or pivot point, but derive from the same causes. Thus, harmonics vary in a direct relation to squirt and pivot point. They do have something to do with each other. But what?

Here's an interesting page featuring animations of the harmonics of a medium that is

a. fixed at both ends, like a cue clasped firmly in the butt hand and used with a closed bridge.

b. free to move at both ends, like a cue cradled loosely in the butt hand and used with a closed bridge.

c. fixed at one end, free at the other, like a cue clasped firmly in the butt hand and used with an open bridge.

Is the squirt of a cue different under any of these three circumstances?

Is the deflection of a cue's tip different under any of these circumstances?

I'll have to drink about this. :D
 
recoveryjones said:
For a hard power shot the poster reccomended a shorter bridge when applying backhand english.For a slow finnesse shot with backhand english,he reccomended a long bridge....

ps.Hey Dhakala.This method has nothing do do whether your male anatomy is relaxed or aroused,so please leave your Zen penis philosophy's out of the discussion.:D :D :D
Click to expand...

What do you mean, "nothing to do with it"?! "Hard power" and "slow finesse" define my male anatomy's condition! :p
 
Ronoh said:
Please...

do continue.
Click to expand...

No. The proper use of the lingam is one of Zen Cueism's most closely guarded secrets. Like Tae Kwon Leep (2.8 MB Windows audio file), it is dangerous knowledge for which worthiness must be demonstrated by long and diligent service to the Master.
 
Klopek said:
Here's why I give very little merit to the article you attached. Nowhere does Mr. Long mention people who have a longer bridge but use a short backstroke (example: Pagulayan).

For instance, I use an 8"-10" bridge but for 75% of my shots I only take the cue back 5" or so.
Click to expand...

Mr. K, who has me on his "ignore" list, gives very little merit to anything that does not directly concern his limited experience.

(It's wicked fun to get in his face behind his back! :D )
 
recoveryjones said:
Good on you to be able to adapt table to table as that takes experience.The same thing I find applies to kicking from pool hall to pool hall.


Anyways,I read somewhere on a billiard forum to vary your bridge length for backhand english depending on whether you are shooting a hard(power) shot or a slower rolling (finesse) shot.

For a hard power shot the poster reccomended a shorter bridge when applying backhand english.For a slow finnesse shot with backhand english,he reccomended a long bridge.

This kind of goes against the grain of traditional teaching which advocates a long bridge for power and a short bridge for finnesse.

I tried(with a little bridge length tweeking) this prescribed method on the pool table and found it to be right on and true to the teaching, at least for me and the guy who posted this info.

Remember I'm talking about these bridge lengths only as they apply to using backhand english,because normally for sure more power can be obtained with a longer bridge.

I know you like to experiment around with this stuff Colin(and others), so set up a few shots and let me know what you think.Try medium to short length shots as it's well know that BHE can become less reliable the longer the shot is.Shoot them slow and shoot them hard varying your bridge lengths as prescribed as you experiment.

Hey if it works, throw it in your tool box.If it doesn't, throw it in the garbage can.:D Nothing ventured,nothing gained.

RJ

ps.Hey Dhakala.This method has nothing do do whether your male anatomy is relaxed or aroused,so please leave your Zen penis philosophy's out of the discussion.:D :D :D
Click to expand...
RJ,
That bridge lengthening and shortening discussion probably came from me in some earlier discussions, particularly regarding one adjustment system I have experimented with for BHE aiming.

There are two basic adjustment methods.
1. Always bridge at the appropriate pivot point length for the speed of shot required and adjust for throw effects by changing the aim. eg. Aim to undercut by one pocket width for a shot using OE at medium speed.

2. Aim exactly as you would normally for a rolling topspin shot but make the adjustment for throw by changing the bridge length. So when I am hitting very hard I will shorten the bridge length and on soft shots I may need to lengthen to 20+ inches. Sometimes you just cannot lengthen enough, so have to adjust the aim. This is because throw increases at lower speeds and so does swerve, both exagerating the error.

I have found the aim adjustment to be the most reliable / predictable, but there are often shots where I will use the bridge length adjustment. Sometimes just because it makes bridging easier, but also for some specific shots. eg. Longish (2-3 feet between CB and OB) shots requiring hard draw with english. On this shot, a 10" pivot will give me the correct contact point, but because of the throw, I actually need to hit the CB a little fuller, so I keep my bridge around 14" and this causes the CB to deflect a little to the full side of the ball. If you get to know the speed and distance for judging this shot, it allows you to line up these shots exactly the same as you would when potting the shot with topspin.

Hope that helps to clarify.

Colin
 
Klopek said:
Here's why I give very little merit to the article you attached. Nowhere does Mr. Long mention people who have a longer bridge but use a short backstroke (example: Pagulayan).

For instance, I use an 8"-10" bridge but for 75% of my shots I only take the cue back 5" or so. Now, if you have a 6" bridge and use all 6" for your backswing, your back arm is doing more behind perpendicular than mine.

What causee the most problems isn't how much shaft is sticking past your bridge, it's how far you take the cue back. If you have a 12" bridge and use a 12" backstroke, your back arm will have lots of room for side to side movement during the forward stroke. If you use a short backstroke, there is less inconsistency during the forward stroke.

There's something else that Mr. Long doesn't consider, a longer bridge offers a longer sighting line. If you get down low on your cue like I do, a longer bridge makes aiming far more accurate, especially while using the closed bridge. Ask Mr. Lonh why snooker players who use 57" cues grip them at the very back by the bumper?. They do this so they get a nice long bridge length, which makes aiming long shots much easier.

As far as contacting the cue ball acurately, I bring my tip right up to the cue ball during my pre-shot routine. I pause with the tip almost touching, but it's what I do next that determines precise contact. With tip at the cue ball, I slide my back grip hand so that it is hanging perpendicular to the floor. This allows me to guarantee that the tip will be contacting the cue ball during the straightest part of my stroke, (the sweet spot if you will).

What Mr. Long should be advising is that people shouldn't have their cue tip 3" away from the cue ball while doing their warm up strokes. When someone does this, the tip position changes during the forward stroke. If you use a pendulum stroke with no elbow drop and cue right up to the cue ball, if your grip hand is perpendicular to the floor, you will be extremely accurate.


Good point Colin. I notice on the Prdator website that they recommend a 14" bridge length in order to receive the most benefit from their technology. Since a lot of pros use Predator shafts, this would explain the migration towards longer bridges. Just a thought.:)
Click to expand...
Hi Klopek,
I think you've described this very well. The sighting factor with the long bridge and the fact that a short backswing can allow the player to maintain accuracy on CB striking.

Interestingly, the video I linked to earlier in this thread shows Cliff Thorburn doing just this. He is often using a bridge length of what looks like about 20" to me. Yet he has a very short backswing, and so he can maintain very accurate play and CB positioning. ....God knows how he controls the speed of his shots so well though:eek:

Colin
 
Dhakala said:
Yes, I agree that tip mass and shaft stiffness are the most significant influencers of squirt and pivot point. But stiffness also influences a shaft's natural frequency and the locations of its harmonic nodes, or points of stillness while the shaft vibrates.

The harmonics of a shaft do not cause it to have particular squirt or pivot point, but derive from the same causes. Thus, harmonics vary in a direct relation to squirt and pivot point. They do have something to do with each other. But what?

Here's an interesting page featuring animations of the harmonics of a medium that is

a. fixed at both ends, like a cue clasped firmly in the butt hand and used with a closed bridge.

b. free to move at both ends, like a cue cradled loosely in the butt hand and used with a closed bridge.

c. fixed at one end, free at the other, like a cue clasped firmly in the butt hand and used with an open bridge.

Is the squirt of a cue different under any of these three circumstances?

Is the deflection of a cue's tip different under any of these circumstances?

I'll have to drink about this. :D
Click to expand...
Dhakala,
I'll absolutely agree that harmonics or vibrational properties do vary and at least have some significant effect on the feel (within the hand) of the shot.

It may even play some role in the structural rigidity / stiffness of the shaft which seems to reduce the squirt. Though according to the rotational induced deflection theory, as I call it, it should not. It may be that a stiffer cue, or one that vibrates in some preferable way has less slippage at the point of contact between the tip and the CB.

But it's pretty hard to see what's really going on there. All I know is that some whippy light shafts I've tried squirt like territorial tom cats.:cool:

Colin
 
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