How many of you guys think that you have good fundamentails?

My fundamentals are just awful. I don't have time to correct them, as I really only shoot twice a week for a couple of hours at most. These days I'm shooting about as well as I ever have, but I don't see myself ever improving dramatically unless I can get a table at home. (No room in my current house.)
That being said, I'm probably in the top 5 players in my pool league, so I'm playing well enough to enjoy myself. :)
 
Dave...I would agree with you, up to a point. Let's look at the numbers. It's generally accepted here in the U.S.A. that there are appx. 4,000,000 "regular" poolplayers (defined as someone who plays at least a couple of times per month). Take 1% of that number, and you get 40,000. Let's call them the "serious" enthusiasts, whether they play league (probably the better players, regardless of what league), play tournaments, gamble, or any mix of the three. I would consider many of us here in this catagory (probably playing at least weekly, if not daily...and searching out information on how to better ourselves). Out of that 40,000 perhaps 2%-3% are what we could define as "open speed" players (again, defined as someone with the skill to play pretty much even up with anyone except the top 'elite' level players). It doesn't matter if they are known or unknown...they can flat out play! For those players, the huge majority came up through the ranks, learned what they know any way they could, from whoever they could, whenever they could. They have, by-in-large, spent many YEARS accumulating this knowledge, and developing their own sense of style and stroke. For THEM, they can do whatever they do, by rote, simply from tons of trial and error. Correct 'fundamentals' (from the perspective of instructors like myself) don't enter into the equation for these players, as they figured things out on their own, based on their own perceptions (players like Earl, Keith, and many, many others). Now, let's add another group of about 5% that are either skeptical, think their "process" is fine, hard-headed, or just play good, but not at 'open speed' (so that's another 2000). That said, there is still a gigantic group out there (4,000,000 - 3200 = 3,996,800) of serious players, for which solid fundamentals can be a great boon in improving their personal games. Those are the folks that most of the instructors I know are reaching out to...and it doesn't even include the casual players, who are estimated at something like FORTY MILLION, just in this country. Nobody is trying to "force-feed" 'correct fundamentals' down anybody's throat. Most folks actually search us out, one way or another, when they have gotten tired of struggling to improve themselves, or exhausted other methods. JMO

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

What really ARE fundamentals? I think fundamentals are blown out of proportion.

Look at guys like Earl with jacked-up bridges and cocked back-hands. Guys like Keith McCready with wicked side-arm action. Guys like Mike Sigel who jump up on every shot or fire their arm through the shot. Guys like Hopkins who don't even have a backstroke or pause for that matter. Or, people like Grady whose tips are set over 5" away from the CB. Bustamante with loopy strokes and 20000" bridge-lengths.

I think the auto-answer that people like to point out is the: "These guys are freaks of nature and shouldn't be copied... they're gifted phenoms."

Yeah, that's true...but.... almost EVERY top elite player I've watched has some aspect of their fundamentals that are not "standard" or would be considered "poor" for that matter.

I think what's most important is to be consistent. If you stroke as crooked as a boomerang but you do it exactly the same each time - you can run out. Obviously, perfect fundamentals make for great consistency with less effort. But, crap fundamentals can make for great consistency as well if you're that type of player.
 
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Here is my tip for instructors: If your student can fire in straight in long shots all day long the dont START the lesson with stance, grip, follow through, pause, finish, fundamentals. We hate that and we don't come back. Starting with something fun and useful like strategy or banks or something will make for a much better first impression. I agree with Scott that the vast majority of lesson takers need help with fundamentals. Even them though I wouldn't start with fundamentals where you are grabbing us all over and making us feel awkward mentally and physically.

Rant over.
 
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What really ARE fundamentals? I think fundamentals are blown out of proportion.

Look at guys like Earl with jacked-up bridges and cocked back-hands. Guys like Keith McCready with wicked side-arm action. Guys like Mike Sigel who jump up on every shot or fire their arm through the shot. Guys like Hopkins who don't even have a backstroke or pause for that matter. Or, people like Grady whose tips are set over 5" away from the CB. Bustamante with loopy strokes and 20000" bridge-lengths.

I think the auto-answer that people like to point out is the: "These guys are freaks of nature and shouldn't be copied... they're gifted phenoms."

Yeah, that's true...but.... almost EVERY top elite player I've watched has some aspect of their fundamentals that are not "standard" or would be considered "poor" for that matter.

I think what's most important is to be consistent. If you stroke as crooked as a boomerang but you do it exactly the same each time - you can run out. Obviously, perfect fundamentals make for great consistency with less effort. But, crap fundamentals can make for great consistency as well if you're that type of player.


I couldn't agree more. When I started playing I was told I did EVERYTHING wrong and that I would never improve unless I took lessons from a good instructor. My stroke was up and down, I moved my head and body while shooting a shot and my elbow dropped A LOT. You know what I did about it? Absolutely nothing. I still do all those "bad" things. Within 3 years my high run went from 23 to 121. If you know what the snooker player Alex Higgins looks like when shooting you'll get an idea of how my fundamentals are. Bottom line: fundamentals are way overated!
 
"Fundamentals are overrated".......Unless your a world class player already...why wouldn't correcting or improving your fundamentals not equate into more consistent ball striking? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems that perfecting flawed fundamentals usually involves a secondary flaw to counteract the first flaw.....interesting thread.
 
I couldn't agree more. When I started playing I was told I did EVERYTHING wrong and that I would never improve unless I took lessons from a good instructor. My stroke was up and down, I moved my head and body while shooting a shot and my elbow dropped A LOT. You know what I did about it? Absolutely nothing. I still do all those "bad" things. Within 3 years my high run went from 23 to 121. If you know what the snooker player Alex Higgins looks like when shooting you'll get an idea of how my fundamentals are. Bottom line: fundamentals are way overated!

There won't be "the perfect fundamentails" for everyone because everyone has different bodies/shapes/weight......
BUT, if you don't find "good fundamentails" to YOUSELF (at least you know you have something wrong on your foundation), you won't easy to get improvment on your game.
 
It's funny to put it this way, but I think it's possible to have bad fundamentals and still make perfect straight in stop shots all day. There are guys who develop those weird sidearm strokes (keith) or pop straight up after the shot (tommy k) but still can make the CB squat after a long straight-in.

Not that anyone should imitate those guys. I guess my point is that just making a certain shot doesn't tell you if you have good fundamentals. It does tell you if you have a consistent stroke though. Probably the best way to tell if you have good fundamentals is to have someone qualified watch you shoot that ball over and over.
 
I think people tend to forget that if you can return the cue to the line of aim before you contact the cue ball, you'll make every shot. Every part of your fundamentals is meant to help facilitate this goal. Orthodox mechanics are meant to make the whole process easier, why would anyone ignore that? It's like trying to open jam jars with your feet.

P.S. Alex Higgins was a great player BUT he was also the most inconsistent player on tour during his time. Ironically the guy that was holding all the cups in the air during the 80's was the poster boy for perfect fundamentals (Steve Davis).
 
Ironically the guy that was holding all the cups in the air during the 80's was the poster boy for perfect fundamentals (Steve Davis).

Jasmin is the poster girl for perfect fundamentals... she is exactly like Steve Davis....IF Steve Davis was a hot chick LOL.


she might have stumbled into a few cups recently.. or so I have heard... but then again she is to young and to well coached to ever beat a REAL pool player LMAO
 
Is there a pro player out there, past or present, who would not be able to make 15 out of 15 long straight-in stop shots?
I think not. If you're a pro, then you're a pro.
 
I work on my fundamentals every time I practice. People who don't actually "practice" must think I'm crazy. They see me pocket about 30 single balls (without a cue ball) and then do another 30 or so straight in stop shots. I learned a couple of stroking exercises from Jerry Briesath way-back-when and I still use them today. They are an excellent warm-up for the rest of my session. I wish I didn't have to do them so often, but I know me...if I don't do the exercises, my stroke will suffer, and consequently, so will my game. I hate to lose because of failed mechanics.

"Today I will do what others will not, so tomorrow I can do what others can not." (Author unknown)
 
I think my fundamentals have lapsed some since I stopped playing for money and competing in tournaments. I am just now getting into working on my "pulling the trigger stroke", I realized I am not pulling the cue back to the ferrule before taking the shot. I have some other things to work on, always seem to work on something and something else slips. ADD, I guess.
Anyway, I'd like to take this opportunity to offer anyone who sends me a pm with an email address George Fels's article "101 Tips to Improve Your Game" from a long out of print issue of Billiards Digest. I did this a while back and got quite a few requests. And yes, I've got permission from Mason King at BD to do so.

Edit: Please make sure to send a pm, some people before visited my user info page and made the request and I didn't see it as I very seldom look at it.
 
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Here is my tip for instructors: If your student can fire in straight in long shots all day long the dont START the lesson with stance, grip, follow through, pause, finish, fundamentals. We hate that and we don't come back. Starting with something fun and useful like strategy or banks or something will make for a much better first impression. I agree with Scott that the vast majority of lesson takers need help with fundamentals. Even them though I wouldn't start with fundamentals where you are grabbing us all over and making us feel awkward mentally and physically.

Rant over.

A good pool game starts with a good foundation. You must master the basics before you can move on. We learned math by first learning to add and subtract. Without having learned that, algebra would have been much more difficult than it was.
We teach fundamentals for a reason...they are the foundation.
That being said, upon completion of a video analysis, if there are no major problems that need to be addressed, then yes, it's time to move ahead.
People come to us because they want to improve. That usually means that what they have been doing isn't working to their satisfaction. And while fundamentals may not be "fun", neither is practice. But it's so important that it can not be ignored in the name of having fun.

Steve

Steve
 
Personally I don't think anyone under an A level has "good" fundamentals, otherwise they wouldn't be missing as much. There's usually either big stroke kinks, alignement or balance problems etc.

I have seen many lower level league players who have good fundamentals, because they took the time to learn them. And while they still haven't advanced to being able to spin the cue ball 3 rails to get shape, or understand how to plan a run-out while breaking up clusters, or the ability to know when and how to play lock up defense, they have the foundation to build upon. So they may not be A players right now, they are developing the things they need to eventually get there?
Steve
 
Hmmm

What really ARE fundamentals? I think fundamentals are blown out of proportion.

Look at guys like Earl with jacked-up bridges and cocked back-hands. Guys like Keith McCready with wicked side-arm action. Guys like Mike Sigel who jump up on every shot or fire their arm through the shot. Guys like Hopkins who don't even have a backstroke or pause for that matter. Or, people like Grady whose tips are set over 5" away from the CB. Bustamante with loopy strokes and 20000" bridge-lengths.

I think the auto-answer that people like to point out is the: "These guys are freaks of nature and shouldn't be copied... they're gifted phenoms."

Yeah, that's true...but.... almost EVERY top elite player I've watched has some aspect of their fundamentals that are not "standard" or would be considered "poor" for that matter.

I think what's most important is to be consistent. If you stroke as crooked as a boomerang but you do it exactly the same each time - you can run out. Obviously, perfect fundamentals make for great consistency with less effort. But, crap fundamentals can make for great consistency as well if you're that type of player.

*

On Another Thread regarding Landon Shuffett winning state championship.

Says the Spider: QUOTE: "Wouldn't surprise me the SLIGHTEST if he ends up being one of the best players ever. His technique is just TOO good." END QUOTE

Just curious if Landon's fundamentals/technique are "blown out of proportion".. Just throwing a little fire on the web !!
 
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