How many would like to see pool like a championship fight? CJ Wiley

[Celtic]

Hate to disagree, but 9-ball ISN'T the game for TV. That's been done, and overdone, and has run its course. The novelty of 9-ball has long worn off, and so has the TCOM effect. There've been attempts to resuscitate 9-ball by showcasing action and entertainment qualities (e.g. "Pool Hall Junkies" and "Ballbreakers"), but these failed as well.

^^^This^^^

9-ball had plenty of time to catch the attention of the general public and grow this sport and instead it was THE game that was pushed and promoted through the worst years this sport has ever seen when viewership and public interest in pro pool fell off a cliff.

No game has ever been pushed as much as 9-ball, it was force fed to the public for years and they spat it out and tuned out of pool on TV completely.

Keep trying to push 9-ball as the game for viewers and you will die of old age with this sport in the same state it is today, or worse.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result...

Exactly. How many decades does it take for people to figure this out FFS...

 

[Celtic]

Eightball on the other hand is complicated to explain and understand, especially when pros are playing. The subtle things we do to nudge a ball to run out 4 shots later is difficult to absorb and comment on, and with 6 or 7 potential targets, it's just confusing.

The public disagree. You pros played 9-ball for 4 decades and the general public NEVER accepted the game. A movie was released with Tom Cruise and Paul Newman that won a best actor oscar that pushed 9-ball as an awesome game and the public rejected it.

All the time and money wasted and THE game the public still accept, the game they still play, the game they understand more then any other game out there is 8-ball.

The public spoke, and they have been speaking for a long long time and pool promoters chose to ignore them and try to force feed them 9-ball and tell them that "they will like it". It was a bad move then, it is a bad move now, and it will be a bad move 20 years from now. Quit ignoring what is so very clear and what is right in front of your face, the public LIKE 8-ball and that is the game they will accept if they accept this sport at all at the pro level.

 

[Celtic]

15sec shot clock? No way, you must be kidding... 30sec does it imho.

The shot clock should not be on a "by the shot" basis and should be done this way.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=277081

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'm talking about putting on a TV Show and training the players to act a certain way

CJ,



With regrets & my prayers,

What on earth are you talking about? I'm talking about putting on a TV Show and training the players to act a certain way while they play. You read WAY TOO MUCH into that my friend. But it is nice to get a reaction, just never expected that one. :angel: I am talking about "show business" did you somehow think that meant something underhanded? WOW!!! This "acting" is done BEFORE the show, not necessarily DURING it. I'll explain in my next post more clearly, and you should read these closer before judging anyone. imo

I just don't think being a glorified version of ourselves is the way to put on the best show. I did mention 'The Color of Money' and how Tom Cruise and Paul Newman were "acting", not being a glorified version of themselves. I'm not sure how much plainer I could have made it for ya.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Nine Ball was never rejected by the general public

The public spoke, and they have been speaking for a long long time and pool promoters chose to ignore them and try to force feed them 9-ball and tell them that "they will like it". It was a bad move then, it is a bad move now, and it will be a bad move 20 years from now. Quit ignoring what is so very clear and what is right in front of your face, the public LIKE 8-ball and that is the game they will accept if they accept this sport at all at the pro level.[/QUOTE]

That's not true at all. The average ratings when I was working with ESPN was a 1 Rating and that was ONE MILLION HOUSEHOLDS.

This was the average and that was up against a lot of first level sporting events.

Nine Ball was never rejected by the general public, this is false information. I was directly involved with the TV aspect of the game and produced 4 events myself and worked with ESPN and the WPBA on 4 Tournaments with over 70 Shows. The Battle of the Sexes that I won was in front of 2.8 Million Viewers. This was all documented. I have no idea what happened after 1999, that was the last year I was involved.

 

[CJ Wiley]

BEFORE the matches and how we are building characters BEFORE they play

I'm not a pro, CJ. You're a pro. But, do you think Stevie Moore is going to play a "character" that's not himself, all the while concentrating on playing top flight pool against a natural character in Alex Pagulayan?

I'm just scared that it's going to be akin to pro wrestling, which yes, is highly successful and profitable......but it's not a sport of controlling fine motor muscles like professional pocket billiards.

In the end, I think we all still want to see great pool. Just natural characters built around that.

Looking forward to hearing more about your ideas, however. I'm not one to dismiss any idea out of hand. We all want this sport to be successful.

It's funny about human nature. Everyone complains about the sport not going anywhere, but when things are brought up that may effectively change the flawed paradigm some people freak out about it.

I'm not saying you, but thinking about doing pro wrestling may be ok to think in terms of BUT.......this has more to do with BEFORE the matches and how we are building characters BEFORE they play. This is when it's done, not DURING the match for pete's sake.

Just think in terms of Boxing when they are doing the pre fight shows and the fans are learning about the Boxer and how they train, and what they do when they aren't training. Then people have an idea about the Boxer before he ever gets in the ring.

They don't try to groom the character while he boxes, just like we wouldn't try to groom the character of a pool player WHILE he's playing. This is where the biggest mistake of all is happening in pool. Pool players don't even get interviewed before or after a match so if they are to show any personality they MUST do it while playing and this DOES NOT WORK.

I'm talking about doing something that's tried and tested. And it's obviously NOT doing the same ole thing over and over that's proven not to be effective. AMEN

 

[CJ Wiley]

What matters is the Emotional Attachment between the viewers and the players.

Hello L&L - I love one pocket but it puts me to sleep to watch it. Really, it takes me about 10-15 hours to get through a one hour one pocket match.

When was the last time you saw chess on TV? I think for me it was about 32 years ago when I was 10

I say that the commentators would have to work triple hard to explain the "action" and make it exciting if that's even possible.

What I would love to see on TV is high stakes BY THE GAME action. Put six top players and a four mouthy shortstops in a room with $100,000 and no one gets out until one guy has all the money. They can play any single game they want, handicap it how they want but they have to keep challenging each other to do something until one guy gets all the money.

Make it a $10,000 buy in like poker.

Call it High Stakes Pool and let the cameras roll!

Dennis Hatch, Alex Pagulayan, Tony Drago, Darrren Appleton, Scooter Goodman, Jeanette Lee, Earl Strickland, Bustamante, etc.... get some players with heart and emotion in there and let them rumble.

Edited to add: Borrow some of poker's betting strategies and make it where the players get to propose a bet/game and the other player has to counter by matching the bet or proposing some other bet but with bigger stakes. At some point say three "barks" in the players have to either call (play) or forfeit the Ante/Pot.

So for example in this round of betting the players MUST play for a minimum of $1000 per game. Johnny says to everyone I will play one 9 ball - I break for $1000. Whoever accepts the bet has to step up and play or bet more. I imagine something fairly simple can be worked out to where it insures that either someone will play or forfeit the ante. Ok I got it, each player antes, then when the antes are in the player who is on the button so to speak bets first, he says what he will play for and the next person either calls or raises by offering to bet more on the same game or proposing a new game but for MORE money. Has to be more money, only time a call can be made is for the same amount.

So when this is done either someone will play a game for the stakes in the middle or everyone will fold except the last person to bet and he takes the pot.

High Stakes Pool! Get it on baby.

These ideas are good because they are different. The one thing is, believe it or not, from our market research it doesn't matter how much the players are playing for. What matters is the Emotional Attachment between the viewers and the players.

This is "where the rubber meets the road" and most people say they don't care if they're playing for millions if they don't know anything about them BEFORE they play their match. I'm just the messanger, so don't confuse me with the message. :groucho:

 

[ENGLISH!]

On the contrary, the "good vs evil" scenario is proven to work and that is "show business". I just don't think we should let the players "be themselves". The players want to be actors and told what part to play. I know I would like that and it would be a big relief to just play my part and play pool.

I don't think people go see the 'Color of Money' to watch Paul Newman and Tom Cruise "be themselves". I think people want entertainment and we should give them exactly that, in as large a doses as the professional directors advise.

CJ,

Please see the highlighted sentences above. That sounds just like pro wrestling & roller derby to me. Those are show business & NOT real. Much of the public are dupped by them.

Is that the type of show business you're talking about?

If so, I don't know how you can walk that fine line & not fall off. It's either honesty or deception. It can't be both.

With hope,

 

[CJ Wiley]

They were playing a part, but when it was time to play/box/shoot they were serious

CJ,

Please see the highlighted sentences above. That sounds just like pro wrestling & roller derby to me. Those are show business & NOT real. Much of the public are dupped by them.

Is that the type of show business you're talking about?

If so, I don't know how you can walk that fine line & not fall off. It's either honesty or deception. It can't be both.

With hope,

I'm talking about doing this BEFORE the match...during the match the players have to play. I'm not sure if you're drinking or just in a bad mood, but please don't jump to such negative opinions. This is done in boxing in every pre show there is on HBO, ESPN, and FOX SPORTS, not to mention every other sport there is......no one mentioned doing a circus act, I'm talking about serious character building done by professionals. You don't really believe Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, or Ali, Jimmy Connors, etc. were acting like themselves do you? They were playing a part, but when it was time to play/box/shoot they were all business.....serious business.

 

[West Point 1987]

It's all about presentation...Bonus Ball had/has a chance here; I'd have added a loud, obnoxious, drunken crowd like the Matchroom darts matches in the UK, complete with card girls, beer, music and pandamonium. Think Mosconi Cup on steroids. You could do it with 9 ball, scotch doubles 8 ball or virtually anything. I agree with those who advocate 8 ball as the game of choice...despite our pure motives on which game is better for pro action, 8 ball is the game the average novice or non-player knows. There just aren't enough of us to make up a viewing audience that can sustain something like this, so we have to find a marketable game.

No acting needed. The characters don't need to be invented; they're already here. We just have to package it and set it into motion. I still think a reality show ala UFC team competitions (2 teams of amateurs/aspiring pros living together, with each team coached by a Hall of Famer) or just following Earl Strickland around for a year would be the biggest money maker. That stuff writes itself!

 

[CJ Wiley]

If it was to naturally happen it already would have. IMHO

It's all about presentation...Bonus Ball had/has a chance here; I'd have added a loud, obnoxious, drunken crowd like the Matchroom darts matches in the UK, complete with card girls, beer, music and pandamonium. Think Mosconi Cup on steroids. You could do it with 9 ball, scotch doubles 8 ball or virtually anything. I agree with those who advocate 8 ball as the game of choice...despite our pure motives on which game is better for pro action, 8 ball is the game the average novice or non-player knows. There just aren't enough of us to make up a viewing audience that can sustain something like this, so we have to find a marketable game.

No acting needed. The characters don't need to be invented; they're already here. We just have to package it and set it into motion. I still think a reality show ala UFC team competitions (2 teams of amateurs/aspiring pros living together, with each team coached by a Hall of Famer) or just following Earl Strickland around for a year would be the biggest money maker. That stuff writes itself!

I wish that was true, but it's proven that actors need to be directed, staff needs to be managed and professional athletes need guidance and direction through management as well. If it was to naturally happen it already would have. IMHO

I'm talking purely from a business perspective, having overseen thousands of staff, managers, GM's, CPAs, etc. From my experience people just don't manage themselves very well and shouldn't be expected to. Again, this is different than what's normally done, but doesn't anyone think that may be what's needed? Organization and Management?

Or is this just something that applies to every other business except pool? 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[fathomblue]

I think I'm starting to see what you're proposing, CJ. I could get pretty optimistic about it.

Sometimes it's just hard to convey ideas across a message board. No hard feelings, I hope.

Do you have something in the pipeline in regards to your approach?

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'm talking about doing this BEFORE the match...during the match the players have to play. I'm not sure if you're drinking or just in a bad mood, but please don't jump to such negative opinions. This is done in boxing in every pre show there is on HBO, ESPN, and FOX SPORTS, not to mention every other sport there is......no one mentioned doing a circus act, I'm talking about serious character building done by professionals. You don't really believe Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, or Ali, Jimmy Connors, etc. were acting like themselves do you? They were playing a part, but when it was time to play/box/shoot they were all business.....serious business.

CJ,

Not drinking & not in a bad mood. Maybe scared for the game though. What you're talking about above is public persona vs private behavior. Everyone does that. I don't think anyone 'told' those people what 'part to play' like wrestling, with 'good vs evil'. Walter Hagen chose his own public persona to portrait. Joe Frazer never forgave Ali. Earl Strickland entertains while he is performing. Willie Mosconi really did not like Fats for the image of pool Fats was portraiting. Willie Mosconi is on record as saying he never 'hustled' anyone.

Wrestling? Yes money, with no real respect. If you're caught play acting, ALL credibilty is lost. If you can play a bad guy before a match then you can play a loser during a match.

I'm a 46 year player that loves the game & just look what your words about 'acting' & 'good & evil' envoked in me. What do you think suspicion would envoke in one that already has a poor opinion of pool.

Just think before you leap.

 

[punter]

You don't really believe Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, or Ali, Jimmy Connors, etc. were acting like themselves do you? They were playing a part, but when it was time to play/box/shoot they were all business.....serious business.

I really do think these guys were 'acting' like themselves. That's what sold them. Did you see Jimmy Connors in one of his last U.S. Opens in NY where he made the semis, he had EVERYONE pumped, and that was no act. It was Jimmy being Jimmy. Tiger and Jordan, not much acting there either, their desire to be the best and their talent and results is what sold them. Ali, well, he was a rare breed, much like Minnesota Fats, in the promotion business. Ali was not only great at his sport, he was a master salesman. And similarly, don't think that just because Fats claimed he was the guy in the Hustler that that was all it took to propel him to be the most recognizable name in pool. Fats had serious talent to not only tell a good story, but he had tremendous charisma that drew people to him and made him a household name.


I sincerely wish you the best in bettering the popularity and the profitability of the game of pool. I just think the characters are already there in pool, and the game is a great game. You are right that the presentation of the players and the game is key. Good luck in your endeavors to improve the game.

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's always better when there's competition in business, sports and life in general

CJ,

Not drinking & not in a bad mood. Maybe scared for the game though. What you're talking about above is public persona vs private behavior. Everyone does that. I don't think anyone 'told' those people what 'part to play' like wrestling, with 'good vs evil'. Walter Hagen chose his own public persona to portrait. Joe Frazer never forgave Ali. Earl Strickland entertains while he is performing. Willie Mosconi really did not like Fats for the image of pool Fats was portraiting. Willie Mosconi is on record as saying he never 'hustled' anyone.

Wrestling? Yes money, with no real respect. If you're caught play acting, ALL credibilty is lost. If you can play a bad guy before a match then you can play a loser during a match.

I'm a 46 year player that loves the game & just look what your words about 'acting' & 'good & evil' envoked in me. What do you think suspicion would envoke in one that already has a poor opinion of pool.

Just think before you leap.

You lost me.....I have no idea where you're going with this. Have you never seen a pre show on boxing, football, tennis, golf, hockey, or golf? This is where you get to know the characters of the participants. You can't do this while you play.

How can you play top level pool and act like anything other than someone playing high level pool? This is what's been attempted in vain in the past, but it's just as stupid now as it was then. Character building is done BEFORE the event, not during, this is never done in regular sports.

I'm trying to create competition so we can all do better. We are doing it regardless, but it's always better when there's competition in business, sports and anywhere you need to raise the level of performance.

 

[CJ Wiley]

they had help in grooming their characters along the way

I really do think these guys were 'acting' like themselves. That's what sold them. Did you see Jimmy Connors in one of his last U.S. Opens in NY where he made the semis, he had EVERYONE pumped, and that was no act. It was Jimmy being Jimmy. Tiger and Jordan, not much acting there either, their desire to be the best and their talent and results is what sold them. Ali, well, he was a rare breed, much like Minnesota Fats, in the promotion business. Ali was not only great at his sport, he was a master salesman. And similarly, don't think that just because Fats claimed he was the guy in the Hustler that that was all it took to propel him to be the most recognizable name in pool. Fats had serious talent to not only tell a good story, but he had tremendous charisma that drew people to him and made him a household name.


I sincerely wish you the best in bettering the popularity and the profitability of the game of pool. I just think the characters are already there in pool, and the game is a great game. You are right that the presentation of the players and the game is key. Good luck in your endeavors to improve the game.

I hate to be the one to tell you but they were all acting. And they had help in grooming their characters along the way. Fats changed his whole persona to match the character in the movie 'The Hustler'.

He was New York Fats before that and acted quite differently before he became Minnesota Fats. Jimmy Connors was very different in his personal life as well. I'm not arguing because you are making valid points, but developing characters is not something many people are talented at. It's hard to be a master pool player and a master character builder at the same time and it's difficult to see yourself as others see you too. I'm just stating the reality of the situation. Pro athletes want to compete and win, not try to act in a certain way to accentuate the entertainment value. This is better left to other types of professionals. IMHO

 

[CJ Wiley]

Not everyone's going to think the "magic bullet" is going to be correct

I think I'm starting to see what you're proposing, CJ. I could get pretty optimistic about it.

Sometimes it's just hard to convey ideas across a message board. No hard feelings, I hope.

Do you have something in the pipeline in regards to your approach?

I do have something in "the pipeline" and it's actually encouraging to get some emotional responses. You know how long it's been sense I've seen any real emotion other than pessimism in the "pool people". If pool's going to make a change then things have to change.

Not everyone's going to think the "magic bullet" is going to be correct of it would have already been done. I would have never guessed what the right formula would be, but the people around me have done the research. The truth is no one that plays or watches pool could figure it out becuase we can't see the forrest for the trees.

I had to seek out the information from a "think tank" of over a thousand people that would NEVER watch pool UNLESS.......the "magic bullet" was fired....there's still a lot of work to be done, but I'm encouraged that it CAN BE DONE.

It makes me sad to see the pro players struggling so much to make a living. There's a solution, but it must be done "outside the box". 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Celtic]

Nine Ball was never rejected by the general public, this is false information. I was directly involved with the TV aspect of the game and produced 4 events myself and worked with ESPN and the WPBA on 4 Tournaments with over 70 Shows.

Who cares?

I am involved in a life where I go to the pubs and play pool, a life where I have many family members who when they say they "want to play some pool" mean they "want to play some 8-ball" and rest assured they have NO CLUE what the rules of 9-ball are and they have no inclination to play the game.

Most of the "general public" have no clue and they don't care about 9-ball. Pool on TV as a novelty that some people might watch for a short period of time is not going to build the sport. Most people who watched 9-ball got bored of watching and they quit and that is why pool on TV has plummeted in both popularity and actual exposure.

What might your 1 rating have been if you had been marketing the game that the public actually play and understand instead of a game where a VERY SMALL percentage of the 300 million people in the USA know anything whatsoever about despite it having been pushed since the early 70's?

You can go ahead and push 9-ball if you wish man, it is your time, your money, your life. Go nuts, other people are pushing bonus ball and you can be just like them, trying to push pool into a direction that is simply not going to work. I am simply a realist and after 20+ years of seeing where this sport is heading and what it has lost I am honestly a little bored with watching people trying to do the same thing again expecting that "this time" it is really going to work...

Often times people say that pool is one of the most popular recreational activities with a huge number of people playing it. That comment should be modified, 8-ball is one of the most popular recreational activities with a huge number of people playing it, it is not 9-ball, it is not straight pool, it is not one-pocket. That huge number of people who play pool that the sport and professional side of things needs to cater to play 8-ball, that IS pool to them. The VAST majority of the people out there who play pool at least casually play 8-ball exclusively and THOSE are the people the professional game needs to market to and attempt to get at least SOME of them interested in watching pro pool. None of that vast majority give a crap about 9-ball, they never have and they never will.

God forbid you tried to market the game that 99% of the people who play pool as recreation actually play and understand, that would be freaking crazy! It is such a joke that 8-ball has never gotten 1/100th of the push that people gave 9-ball.

 

[TheThaiger]

Who cares?

I am involved in a life where I go to the pubs and play pool, a life where I have many family members who when they say they "want to play some pool" mean they "want to play some 8-ball" and rest assured they have NO CLUE what the rules of 9-ball are and they have no inclination to play the game.

Most of the "general public" have no clue and they don't care about 9-ball. Pool on TV as a novelty that some people might watch for a short period of time is not going to build the sport. Most people who watched 9-ball got bored of watching and they quit and that is why pool on TV has plummeted in both popularity and actual exposure.

What might your 1 rating have been if you had been marketing the game that the public actually play and understand instead of a game where a VERY SMALL percentage of the 300 million people in the USA know anything whatsoever about despite it having been pushed since the early 70's?

You can go ahead and push 9-ball if you wish man, it is your time, your money, your life. Go nuts, other people are pushing bonus ball and you can be just like them, trying to push pool into a direction that is simply not going to work. I am simply a realist and after 20+ years of seeing where this sport is heading and what it has lost I am honestly a little bored with watching people trying to do the same thing again expecting that "this time" it is really going to work...

Often times people say that pool is one of the most popular recreational activities with a huge number of people playing it. That comment should be modified, 8-ball is one of the most popular recreational activities with a huge number of people playing it, it is not 9-ball, it is not straight pool, it is not one-pocket. That huge number of people who play pool that the sport and professional side of things needs to cater to play 8-ball, that IS pool to them. The VAST majority of the people out there who play pool at least casually play 8-ball exclusively and THOSE are the people the professional game needs to market to and attempt to get at least SOME of them interested in watching pro pool. None of that vast majority give a crap about 9-ball, they never have and they never will.

God forbid you tried to market the game that 99% of the people who play pool as recreation actually play and understand, that would be freaking crazy! It is such a joke that 8-ball has never gotten 1/100th of the push that people gave 9-ball.

8 ball is too easy for pros.
9 ball is too difficult for bangers.

8.5 ball?

 

[TheThaiger]

It makes me sad to see the pro players struggling so much to make a living.

Presumably you're thinking about having a stable of players, much like Hearn's Matchroom snooker revolution in the 80s.

Will they be salaried?