How much is knowledge worth?

brandoncook26

brandoncook26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Say you could know everything that Efren knows about pool, but your shooting ability doesn't change from what it is now. How much would that knowledge improve your game? Would it depend on your level of shooting? Say for instance, if Scott Frost gets it, how much more is it worth than if I get it.

Curious to see what people think. How much does ability play in and how much does knowledge factor in?

I know the importance of knowledge changes also depending on the game. Interesting to think of those possibilities as well.
 
Knowledge is everything in pool.

Every game is won partly on knowledge and the other part on execution. In some games its less evident than in others, but even in simple games like 9 ball, recognizing patterns is an important part in continued success.

One pocket itself is an experienced based game, however the finely tuned exectution is severly important at a high level.

The importance in knowledge comes with the statement that shot exectutions have a built in degree of failure. If you can always play position to areas on the table that give you a higher percentage of success and you move the cueball to areas that would give your opponent a lower chance to score should you miss, everything is "easier".

Games of one pocket are rarely "won" in the same sense that other games are. In one pocket, the knowledge you posess enables you to manage the table in such a fashion that you can maneuver the balls into a favorable position and constantly keep your opponent shooting low pecentage shots. Even the best shotmakers will eventually get into trouble and will end up having to shoot a low percentage shot to try and get out. In one pocket you can almost make your opponent shoot this low pecentage shot where in other games, your opponent can just duck most times.

Efren is a master at leaving you no options. He doesn't have to make the most miraculous shot in the world to win, merely keep sticking you into difficult situations and wait for failure.
 
IMO it is the blend.

A blend of knowledge properly applied and skill properly executed.
Two robots with same skill and knowledge should produce same results.

In the real world of people:
If your skills break down under pressure so you cannot deliver the stroke straight and hit the cue ball with the proper acceleration in the right spot your knowlege loses its advantage or
If you lose the ability to think and solve the problem and therefore do not pick the best solution and end upshooting lower percentages patters your ability to execute will not overcome the percentages.
In any event, in my case my amatuer brain breaks down before my physical skills under pressure do. So for me the ability to think under pressure breaks down before my ability to execute under pressure.
Anyway a thought to an intersesting question.
For what it is worth.
 
Accuracy first

The more accurate you are...the smarter you can play...
..and therefore the more knowledge you can acquire.

Einstein needs the 4 up...
Hawking needs 'drive any ball to a rail'
 
brandoncook26 said:
Say you could know everything that Efren knows about pool, but your shooting ability doesn't change from what it is now. How much would that knowledge improve your game? Would it depend on your level of shooting? Say for instance, if Scott Frost gets it, how much more is it worth than if I get it.

Curious to see what people think. How much does ability play in and how much does knowledge factor in?

I know the importance of knowledge changes also depending on the game. Interesting to think of those possibilities as well.
Click to expand...

Good point Brandon. I think the value of the knowledge increases exponentially with the ability of execution.
I like that statement so much I might put it in my signature line!
 
For me, not as much as some other player. Lot's of Efren's moves are based on his talent. Since I wouldn't have his talent I wouldn't be able to execute his choices. My choice for a player would have to be someone with a more conventional approach where his KNOWLEDGE would help ME. I would choose a straight pool player. 14.1 players think smarter and simpler. The simpler it is, the better for MY shooting ability.
 
brandoncook26 said:
Say you could know everything that Efren knows about pool, but your shooting ability doesn't change from what it is now. How much would that knowledge improve your game? Would it depend on your level of shooting? Say for instance, if Scott Frost gets it, how much more is it worth than if I get it.

Curious to see what people think. How much does ability play in and how much does knowledge factor in?

I know the importance of knowledge changes also depending on the game. Interesting to think of those possibilities as well.
Click to expand...

There used to be a B/C tournament series in town: B's go to 4 C's goto 3. Once you won the thing twice you were an A and couldn't play anymore.

--unless you chose to play opposite handed.

So one "A" player chose to enter a few opposite handed. Though his ballmaking was about commensurate with that of an average C player, he played as a B and won the tournament again. This was 8-ball.
The value of
--knowing patterns,
--of recognizing natural cueball paths that end along the line of and on the right side of the next ball,
--of recognizing two-way shots,
--of when and how to lay down,
--of how and when to fix problems,
--of how and when to create problems,
etc was evidently critical.

Risk management...
 
mikepage said:
There used to be a B/C tournament series in town: B's go to 4 C's goto 3. Once you won the thing twice you were an A and couldn't play anymore.

--unless you chose to play opposite handed.

So one "A" player chose to enter a few opposite handed. Though his ballmaking was about commensurate with that of an average C player, he played as a B and won the tournament again. This was 8-ball.
The value of
--knowing patterns,
--of recognizing natural cueball paths that end along the line of and on the right side of the next ball,
--of recognizing two-way shots,
--of when and how to lay down,
--of how and when to fix problems,
--of how and when to create problems,
etc was evidently critical.

Risk management...
Click to expand...

Seems kinda obvious. If shotmaking ability is nullified then knowledge becomes the one deciding factor. But imo generally, if you can't make the balls, even the most complete knowledge won't get you anywhere.
 
Wybrook said:
Knowledge is everything in pool.

Every game is won partly on knowledge and the other part on execution.
Click to expand...

There is a slight problem with what you say. If your first statement is true, your second one has to be false, and vice-versa.
 
You know, I wondered about that, and I actually did test this. I took an apa 4, a light one, who had played for 30 years and was stuck in place, you know the one, not a lot of natural talent, far from an athlete, learned slow, and I took him under my wing and taught him nothing about the basics, nothing about how to stand, grip, stroke, nada. All I did was play with him, I spent months, training him, how to think, like I think, to make the same game decisions I do, shot selection, when to run, when to duck, and to eliminate all scratching and his shooting his self in his foot, and I taught him how to play safe like a pro.

The result, he went quickly up to an Apa 6, and a solid one. So knowledge is king, without it, you only go so far, unless you possess that natural talent few of us has.

That means I can take anyone up a full level, with just teaching them how to stop making mistakes and selling out. And most up 2 to 3 levels.

To take him to a 7, I then had to give the rest of it to him and clean up his basics and break.

So just getting a league player, to think like a pro, will raise him to a 6. That is your answer.

Pancho. :grin:
 
Being able to solve problems and figure things out can easily separate a shot-maker from a great player. In my few years playing, I've done well in the underdog role by playing a smarter game. People expect less out of a weaker shooter, so my strategy play often caught people in a bad spot. Many of my banks early on were more for position, since I didn't know very much about CB control and could play the offensive-defensive shot much more often.

In the end, you still need to be able to make the ball(s), so you can't rely on knowledge alone to win a real game.
 
How much is knowledge worth

I had an interesting conversation with an excellent player named Bernie Pettipiece when I was in Arizona.
I had the pleasure of teaching him a double kiss bank he had not seen before and he said that at the level he plays a new shot that not everyone knows is like a 10th of a ball to him .

I remember the first time I learned to make a force follow shot and freeze the cueball on the rail while taking balls out of the opponents pocket at 1 hole .
I had played a guy 7 or 8 times and lost every time to him.
After I learned that shot he played twice and lost and would never play me again.
I have to figure learning that shot at that time meant a ball or more in my game.
The knowledge is practically useless {unless you are teaching} without the ability to perform it. {Although you might see the shot and not leave it to your opponent}
My fondest memories of pool besides playing in grueling matches is when I had the chance to be present when a great player was passing on their knowledge.
I had voiced my opinion in another post that after a long session when you look back, the session really hinged on 4 or 5 missed or made shots.
I want to be the one who knows the shot, don't you? {hopefully we won't miss it}.
 
I think it is a combination of both. You have to have the ability to put the knowledge you acquire in to action on the table. Using BCAPL rules for example, knowledge is power for sure. A lot of matches in tournaments could have gone the other way if the losing player had been more familiar with the rules. I have watched it over and over again players missing golden oppurtunities because the don't have the knowledge of the rules. So, ability and knowledge are both equally important in some situations.
 
To answer the question simply, "The price of a library card". It all depends on the employment of wisdom, stemming from knowledge. Mahalo Carl
 
Hmmm.

PoolBum said:
There is a slight problem with what you say. If your first statement is true, your second one has to be false, and vice-versa.
Click to expand...
You might be correct in that observation. I once told an opponent, "Don't be afraid of what I Do, be afraid of what I Know!"

Can't say if he was intimidated in the least. :rolleyes:
 
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