how much should go into the prize fund

thewhiffer

thewhiffer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I recently participated in a multi divisional tournament. The players were charged an entry fee, plus a registration fee, plus green fees. The prize pool came to about 80% of the amount collected for entry fees. This seemed to be less than I would have thought was reasonable when you consider that of each dollar paid by the player the break down was as follows;

entry fee collected $0.60
registration fee $0.14
green fees $0.26

Into the prize fund from each dollar paid $0.48

Now I realize that table fees should be extra and there should be a registration fee so the question really boils down to....Is a prize fund of 80% of the amount collected in entry fees reasonable when a registration fee and green fee is charged in addition to the entry fee?
 
If you like to play, then you should pay. Sounds fair to me.

What you are saying...out of a $10 entry fee, $8 goes towards the prize money. This is fine.

When I play it is for the fun and just to try and break even.:D
 
thewhiffer said:
I recently participated in a multi divisional tournament. The players were charged an entry fee, plus a registration fee, plus green fees. The prize pool came to about 80% of the amount collected for entry fees. This seemed to be less than I would have thought was reasonable when you consider that of each dollar paid by the player the break down was as follows;

entry fee collected $0.60
registration fee $0.14
green fees $0.26

Into the prize fund from each dollar paid $0.48

Now I realize that table fees should be extra and there should be a registration fee so the question really boils down to....Is a prize fund of 80% of the amount collected in entry fees reasonable when a registration fee and green fee is charged in addition to the entry fee?
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You're math is off or you did not explain things the right way. You said 80% was in the prize fund, then you have 48%. The entry fee is %60 of what you paid alone in your list. Why is there only .48 per dollar in the prize fund when .60 was collected after the fees were taken out?

If it's really 48% of what you payed to enter was in the prize fund, that is very low. The "entry fee" should be the total you pay, then the other fees are taken from that. Entry fee = %100 then the greens fee and registration (which I am assuming would be collected by the tournament director for his/her time), whatever is left goes to the prize fund.
 
hang-the-9 said:
You're math is off or you did not explain things the right way. You said 80% was in the prize fund, then you have 48%. The entry fee is %60 of what you paid alone in your list. Why is there only .48 per dollar in the prize fund when .60 was collected after the fees were taken out?

If it's really 48% of what you payed to enter was in the prize fund, that is very low. The "entry fee" should be the total you pay, then the other fees are taken from that. Entry fee = %100 then the greens fee and registration (which I am assuming would be collected by the tournament director for his/her time), whatever is left goes to the prize fund.
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I agree, the OP's math is a bit off.

As far as the split is concerned I wouldn't mind. If you watch these forms much at all you will notice the slow death of our countries pool halls. I don't mind giving back when I can. Even if most of that money in your break down isn't going directly into the hall owners hands he sees a indirect benefit from it.

To each their own but personally I would be ok with it.
 
the breakdowns don't mean much

The way the people putting on events break down what you are paying doesn't mean much. Entry fees and added money are often taking from you with one hand and giving with the other for example.

The grim truth is that most tournaments, especially small and medium sized, cost the venue more than they make. How much did they lose in lost table time and the evening party crowd? The tournament bunch drinks a tiny fraction of what the recreation crowd does.

We can decide to play in a tournament or not based on what the costs and benefits to ourselves are, it is perfectly reasonable for the people putting on events to look at costs and benefits too. At the end of the day pool players have almost nothing to offer as a group and the business owner is the one in control anyway. Probably best to remember that there is little incentive to put on most tournaments. Kinda boils down to beggars can't be choosers. We need the owners a lot worse than they need the serious players as a general rule in today's market.

I wish the story was different but this is the way I see it.

Hu
 
poolguy4u said:
If you like to play, then you should pay. Sounds fair to me.

What you are saying...out of a $10 entry fee, $8 goes towards the prize money. This is fine.

When I play it is for the fun and just to try and break even.:D
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Thanks for the input. You are correct that 80% of the entry went into the prize fund but in addition there was a registration fee that would bring the total payback to 65% of receipts. I never took notice at other tournaments before but because of the separate fees it caught my attention. I am a firm believer that those who put on tournaments should receive a benefit and do not begrudge that for an instant. I just feel that the break down should be transparent up front.

I, like yourself, play to have an enjoyable time and if I get some back that's great but not necessary in terms of how I enjoy the tournament.

I have attended tournaments where I won the singles, my team won the team event and with travel and accommodations expenses I broke even (excluding drinks) but still love the trophies.
 
hang-the-9 said:
You're math is off or you did not explain things the right way. You said 80% was in the prize fund, then you have 48%. The entry fee is %60 of what you paid alone in your list. Why is there only .48 per dollar in the prize fund when .60 was collected after the fees were taken out?

If it's really 48% of what you payed to enter was in the prize fund, that is very low. The "entry fee" should be the total you pay, then the other fees are taken from that. Entry fee = %100 then the greens fee and registration (which I am assuming would be collected by the tournament director for his/her time), whatever is left goes to the prize fund.
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Sorry for the confusion. 80% of the entry fee went into the prize fund. However, with the other charges for registration and green fees, it turns out that 48% of the total cost to the players were returned as prizes.
 
thewhiffer said:
Sorry for the confusion. 80% of the entry fee went into the prize fund. However, with the other charges for registration and green fees, it turns out that 48% of the total cost to the players were returned as prizes.
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The charges are taken out before the "prize fund". The prize fund is the money that is given out as winnings, so you are saying that 48% is going into the prize fund.

If there are all those "fees" where is the missing 20% going to? Sounds like a college tuition listing, 1k for "tuition" 1k for "registration fee, 1k for "athletic fee", 1k for "using air on campus fee"...

Less than half going to pay back the players is horrible.

80% is OK, 10% to the room, 10% to the guy running the tournament, rest to the players. Not someone skimming 20% off the top then adding on other fees.

You could have a registration fee when it's a larger tournament with several stops, you pay a registration fee for the year. Not per tournament, on top of whatever is taken out like how yours was setup.
 
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I am curious about where the other 20% of the "entry fee" went.

Total Intake: $1.00

Registration: $0.14
Greens fees: $0.26
Prize fund: $0.48
?????: $0.12

Does that make sense?
 
thewhiffer said:
Sorry for the confusion. 80% of the entry fee went into the prize fund. However, with the other charges for registration and green fees, it turns out that 48% of the total cost to the players were returned as prizes.
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I think your math is leading you to an incorrect conclusion. I'm not saying that your answer is wrong, but that your question is wrong.

You were charged:
X for an entry fee
Y for a registration fee
Z for a greens fee

Assuming that is correct, Y and Z should be taken out of any further calculations. By their very name, they were earmarked for specific things and I wouldn't expect them to be part of the prize money. So while mathematically you're correct that 48% of the total money you put in went into the prize fund, two parts of that (Y and Z) should not have been included in the calculation.

The real question is what happened to the other 20% of the entry fee?
 
I think a little more clarification is needed. So, let's say here are the numbers and I'm multiplying his original info by 100.

Per person, entry fee is $60, $14 registration & $26 green fee = $100/person. In a field of 96 that would be $9600 total in money. 96x$60 entry = $5760. 80% of $5760=$4608.

In this tournament what were the prize amounts and how many places did they pay out. Is this how you came up with the total of $4608 (80% of the entry fee)?

Of course this means the house got 96*$26=$2496. Registration = 96*$14=$1344.

This would mean the ones that ran the tournament charged $1344 (registration)+ 20%x$5760 ($1152) = $2496.

Is this the math you're questioning?
 
Ideally, there should be three separate fees to playing at tournaments;
- Tournament fee - goes totally towards the prize fund (i.e., $10.00 person)
- Greens fee - to the pool hall for use of the tables (i.e., $4 or $5)
- Registration fee - goes to the Tournament Director ($1 - $2)

Declaring the fees up front makes it clear to players where their money goes.

As a person with extensive small business experience, it irritates me to see pool halls offering free table use for tournaments.
 
slouch said:
I think a little more clarification is needed. So, let's say here are the numbers and I'm multiplying his original info by 100.

Per person, entry fee is $60, $14 registration & $26 green fee = $100/person. In a field of 96 that would be $9600 total in money. 96x$60 entry = $5760. 80% of $5760=$4608.

In this tournament what were the prize amounts and how many places did they pay out. Is this how you came up with the total of $4608 (80% of the entry fee)?

Of course this means the house got 96*$26=$2496. Registration = 96*$14=$1344.

This would mean the ones that ran the tournament charged $1344 (registration)+ 20%x$5760 ($1152) = $2496.

Is this the math you're questioning?
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There is another mystery 20% missing also because he started with 80% is the prize fund, but then other fees were taken out from the prize fund. The usage of "prize fund" in the post is wrong. From what the poster said, if they collect $1,000 from the players, $480 is available to pay the players after all the fees are taken out, only %48 went to the prize fund, not 80%.

Whoever put on this tournament was basically robbing the players. It would be like the bank saying you owe $1,000 a month for your house, but we're not counting the first $200 for anything and just keeping it, then of the remaining $800 you are paying $200 in interest, $100 in bank fee, $20 in document fee and $480 goes to paying off the loan.
 
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I agree 48% of the total fees is low. I just wanted to verify how he got to this number. In my example the total payout would have been $4608 out of $9600. I just wanted him to provide the actual payouts.
 
I'm just going to simplify this a little. He said that 80% of the "ENTRY FEE($60)" was paid back. I'm sure that he calculated this correctly because it's very easy math.

If there were 100 players, the total prize payout should have been $6000.00. The greens fees and registration fees are irrelavent to any calculations because that money never is or will be the players money. From his description the total payout was 80% of 60 * number of players. So in my example with 100 players the total amount paid to winners would have been 80% of 6000, or 4800. If you will notice, that comes out to a 48% of the TOTAL amount that players paid to get into the tournament($10,000.00). That is where he's getting that .48 of every dollar spent went back to the players. In my opinion this is way too low, BUT that isn't really the main issue. The issue is the missing money with no explanation as to where it went.

Breakdown of where the money went for 100 players:

Total $$ = 10,000.00

Prize fund = 4,800.00
Registration = 1,400.00
Green Fees = 2,600.00
?????? = 1,200.00

For a total of 10,000.00

This guys issue is that they were up front about the breakdown of where their money goes in relation to the green's fees and registration fee but made no mention as to why the full 60$ entry fee was not paid back.
 
nahog99 said:
I'm just going to simplify this a little. He said that 80% of the "ENTRY FEE($60)" was paid back. I'm sure that he calculated this correctly because it's very easy math.

If there were 100 players, the total prize payout should have been $6000.00. The greens fees and registration fees are irrelavent to any calculations because that money never is or will be the players money. From his description the total payout was 80% of 60 * number of players. So in my example with 100 players the total amount paid to winners would have been 80% of 6000, or 4800. If you will notice, that comes out to a 48% of the TOTAL amount that players paid to get into the tournament($10,000.00). That is where he's getting that .48 of every dollar spent went back to the players. In my opinion this is way too low, BUT that isn't really the main issue. The issue is the missing money with no explanation as to where it went.

Breakdown of where the money went for 100 players:

Total $$ = 10,000.00

Prize fund = 4,800.00
Registration = 1,400.00
Green Fees = 2,600.00
?????? = 1,200.00

For a total of 10,000.00

This guys issue is that they were up front about the breakdown of where their money goes in relation to the green's fees and registration fee but made no mention as to why the full 60$ entry fee was not paid back.
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The entry fee amount was never mentioned, he said that .60 of each dollar was the entry fee, the rest was some other fees. Aside from that, we're all wondering where the 20% taken off the top went LOL

The greens and registration fees should have been in that 20%, giving 80% back to the players, it's odd that they started at 80% of the entry and then took the fees off. Basically the registration and greens fees were 52% of the total collected, because if whoever set this up took 20% for profit, that needs to be in the "registration fee".

It's too bad this is from Canada (assuming the location of the OP is where the tournament was) so I can't tell my friends to boycott any events by whoever did the tournament hehe.
 
DoubleD said:
Anything less than 500% of all money paid into a tourney being paid out is a rip-off for the players and a sign of a greedy promoter.

dld
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That would be great, but I'll take a compromise, 250%.

I'm sure no-one expects every dollar in a non-sponsored event with no money added to go to the players as winnings, but I doubt anyone will say that less than 50% is OK, especially with 20% just going poof and then adding on fees on top of that.
 
hang-the-9 said:
The entry fee amount was never mentioned, he said that .60 of each dollar was the entry fee, the rest was some other fees. Aside from that, we're all wondering where the 20% taken off the top went LOL

The greens and registration fees should have been in that 20%, giving 80% back to the players, it's odd that they started at 80% of the entry and then took the fees off. Basically the registration and greens fees were 52% of the total collected, because if whoever set this up took 20% for profit, that needs to be in the "registration fee".

It's too bad this is from Canada (assuming the location of the OP is where the tournament was) so I can't tell my friends to boycott any events by whoever did the tournament hehe.
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Here is what he said:

entry fee collected $0.60
registration fee $0.14
green fees $0.26

Math doesn't care if the entry fee was 1 dollar or 5 million dollars. Those are all percentages. Whether it was a $100 tournament(come on OP a little more details would be nice) or not is irrelevant. He said that 80% of the ENTRY FEE was paid out, which if his per dollar breakdown is correct, means that 12% of the total amount paid, or 20% of just the entry fee is going to somewhere which is not mentioned. In my opinion if you have an entry fee, greens fees, and registration fees, the entry fee should be 100% paid back to the players because the tournament director and the house already got their money. If the extra 12% went to the tournament director there either should have been a line saying so, or just have the registration fees be 26% instead of 14%. No one likes it when their own money disappears with no explanation. The chances of whoever ran the tournament keeping a little "extra" for him/herself is not THAT slim.
 
hang-the-9 said:
That would be great, but I'll take a compromise, 250%.

I'm sure no-one expects every dollar in a non-sponsored event with no money added to go to the players as winnings, but I doubt anyone will say that less than 50% is OK, especially with 20% just going poof and then adding on fees on top of that.
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Just a little side note, you ever do the math for how much money the APA makes vs pays back? It's insane. The actual national level of the APA has **** all for overhead. They basically run a website and take care of some logistical work.
 
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