How much weight do you give to a numbering system for Kick shots?
- Thread starter 336Robin
- Start date
Knowing systems is a huge benefit and knowing when and how to appropriately apply them is crucial to end result.
Not all systems require direct counting (though they can be proven mathematically).
Ive had fair success with maximums, being aware of the outcome of 'all' speed/spin imparted on the ball.
For the record, you rarely need all. Adjust accordingly.
I'll tell ya one maximum that has gotten me out of a good few jams...cb on short rail and Max English to opposite corner, short rail first. I ~know where that cb hits when it comes back to the side it started from.
Not all systems require direct counting (though they can be proven mathematically).
Ive had fair success with maximums, being aware of the outcome of 'all' speed/spin imparted on the ball.
For the record, you rarely need all. Adjust accordingly.
I'll tell ya one maximum that has gotten me out of a good few jams...cb on short rail and Max English to opposite corner, short rail first. I ~know where that cb hits when it comes back to the side it started from.
That's interesting. I'm going to try that. Thanks.
They all leave out the base number.
Tables applied to.
Tables applied to.
This is my favorite system for one rail kicks, no counting. It really improved my ability to precisely kick.
I've seen this one before. I like it!
I do a math version by finding the 2 to 1 line and subtracting on tenth of diamond with a medium stroke
which is pretty close to these results. The trick will be the ability to hit balls out in the table with it.
I may have missed it, but did he say where, relative to the nose of the cushion, his tip is placed when he pivots to the midpoint?
Oikawa
Well-known member
For me, the best ideology for almost all 1-2 rail kicks is to use a mirror point as a baseline, then adjust from there by feel/experience/whatever you want to call it.
No numbers, no calculations, just a systematic approach for locating the point where you'd have to hit the CB if the rail collision worked like a mirror (angle in = angle out) and there were no curves in the CB path.
From this baseline, you then consciously, or subconsciously (typically a combination of both) adjust for the various effects at play. Tip position, speed, angle of impact, table conditions, cue elevation, etc. Typically you either manipulate these variables to create an angle that otherwise isn't possible, e.g. using sidespin/swerve, or (more commonly) pick the set of variables that results in the most consistent execution for the desired hit (e.g. soft rolling or medium-speed with top, no side and no elevation)
As for how to locate this mirror point, there's lots of methods that you can find online, but I personally find this method to be most consistent for 1-rail kicks: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/two-new-kicking-systems.567121/post-7894945
For 2-rail kicks, I use the midpoint-parallel-shift system:
billiards.colostate.edu
No numbers, no calculations, just a systematic approach for locating the point where you'd have to hit the CB if the rail collision worked like a mirror (angle in = angle out) and there were no curves in the CB path.
From this baseline, you then consciously, or subconsciously (typically a combination of both) adjust for the various effects at play. Tip position, speed, angle of impact, table conditions, cue elevation, etc. Typically you either manipulate these variables to create an angle that otherwise isn't possible, e.g. using sidespin/swerve, or (more commonly) pick the set of variables that results in the most consistent execution for the desired hit (e.g. soft rolling or medium-speed with top, no side and no elevation)
As for how to locate this mirror point, there's lots of methods that you can find online, but I personally find this method to be most consistent for 1-rail kicks: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/two-new-kicking-systems.567121/post-7894945
For 2-rail kicks, I use the midpoint-parallel-shift system:
Midpoint-Parallel-Shift Two-Rail Kick Shot Aiming System - Dr. Dave Pool Info
Answers to frequently-asked questions about the two-rail midpoint-parallel-shift kick shot aiming system.
billiards.colostate.edu
Last edited:
I think the tip of the cushion is your contact point (that’s how I use it at least).
My error comes in accurately spotting the midpoint on kicks with large gaps between ob and cb.
It took me a long time to realize my contact points on a rail is actually the ball's radius (measure) off the rail.
Is whay you're referring to here related to that?
I don't think I have the time to wait for further epiphanies or eurekas.
I use a 0 to 80 numbering system (instead of 1-8) deployed by Tor Lowry in his excellent instructional videos. Every week or two to refresh, I line up all 15 balls from one end of the table to the other and use the 2-1 tracks to pocket them all.
I also do this drill on every new table to dial in.
Generally I am hitting a tip above center at pocket speed. Any, and I do mean any, inadvertent spin will throw the shot off. So I shorten my bridge.
After a while, you get a feel for the angles instinctively.
Adjustments are needed naturally. Once you get past the middle pockets, you might need a hair of running English. And I do mean just a hair.
Slower shots will lengthen or widen out, of course, and faster ones will end up short.
Lil Chris' vid is very good, too. I use that technique in some situations.
I also do this drill on every new table to dial in.
Generally I am hitting a tip above center at pocket speed. Any, and I do mean any, inadvertent spin will throw the shot off. So I shorten my bridge.
After a while, you get a feel for the angles instinctively.
Adjustments are needed naturally. Once you get past the middle pockets, you might need a hair of running English. And I do mean just a hair.
Slower shots will lengthen or widen out, of course, and faster ones will end up short.
Lil Chris' vid is very good, too. I use that technique in some situations.
For many, a huge source of error is trying to do the parallel shift from the midpoint line to the cue ball line.
This system is the equivalent of a mirror system with the reflecting plane where you put your tip. (The physical reflection occurs at the rail groove, of course.) Since it is a reflection system, there is an equivalent target ball that works for all cue ball origins. If you want to practice this system and in particular check on your alignment errors, putting up the target ball can tell you whether you have made errors before you shoot.
(How the target ball works: To get to a particular point -- the left side of the side pocket, for example, as in the video -- different starting points for the cue ball will have different landing points on the first rail. However all of those shot lines from the different cue ball positions to where it hits on the rail will to go exactly towards the same point out in space about four feet from the table. If you put a ball at that location, you will be able to see instantly whether your measuring and shifting was correct.)
That's called the rail groove and it is at the reflection plane for some banking/kicking systems. Other systems use a different reflection plane.
That’s a good idea bob, thanks. My practical failures with the mirror system have been accurately placing the mirror ball in my mind when it’s a non trivial distance from the rail (a few inches off there makes a difference too).
George the Greek
Well-known member
I personally never learned any system and can kick decent from 1-5 rails when needed and hit most banks fairly well. I spend time hitting the CB around using various parts of the rails with inside/outside spin and adjusting as needed. After playing for 50 years I trained enough cueballs lol
He illustrates the tip of the cue being at the point the rail meets the bed of the table. (or about 2/3rds to the location of the diamond from the nose of the rail.)
Billiards As It Should Be Played by Hoppe is an excellent source for kicking and banking systems.
I give zero weight to numbered kicking systems. I just see the angles with my eyes.
Well, yes, but you know what an angle is -- some people don't, really -- and you spend how many hours a week on mechanical design systems?
As for the unnumbered systems, I'd take the reflected target over the one in the video above. The "opposite 3" is another good one.
That’s fine for experienced players. For beginners and intermediate players, it’s best they learn diamond systems and kicking and banking systems. Knowing these things helps players understand the role of speed and spin and teaches them the angles. Over time these things will become intuitive.
i still see some of the best players in the world, like Gorst and SVB, occasionally doublecheck their shot placement on kicks by visibly referring to mirror or other systems.