How to change the ferrule

[Cue Crazy]

The biggest problem is shafts that are not round.The best you can do is average out the error. Either buy using a collet or adjustable chuck. But the problem is dealing with an out of round shaft. They can be easily .1 mm or more in a lobed shape. Some of the best cues are still, .03 mm out of round. This could be the natural movement of the wood or the way it was finished and sanded.The next decision is how much work are you going to do to put it right ?. Just correct for an inch or so , or do you end up refinishing the whole shaft ?.
I give the customer my opinion and a price and let them choose. No point refinishing a whole shaft and still have an unhappy customer, or just doing a little when they wanted the whole shaft refinished.Some choose to have the ferrule round and cut just to the wood, with the ferrule being the same as the average diameter. There are places where it is over and under.
Neil

I see this everyday, and you are correct, most shafts are out of round to some degree. Some alot more then others though, and you can work your tail off trying to center things, and still the best you can do is try to meet in the middle by only removing the least amount of material. You also have to consider the center line of the shaft, and not throwing that out of wack any worse then they may already be.

I see this to be even more extreme in well used shafts, and I suspect the worse of It comes from hand sanding, although that is not the only source I'm sure. It could also be caused by a ferrule install that was done previously, if the shaft wasn't centered well during the installation, and the ferrule was hand sanded flush on one side. I guess there are alot of things that could cause It.

 

[MVPCues]

It had always been second nature to me to adjust the shaft and or collet in the spindle until It's perfectly true... I never even considered the imperfection aspect of it, only because there is always seems to be a variance and you just have to tweak it until it's perect !!!

I wouldn't even consider working on anything with my lathe including shafts and cues unless it spun perfect before addressing it....



Sincerely, Eddie Wheat

I was doing some work on a shaft having trouble getting the end of the ferrule to turn true. It finally dawned on me to take my calipers and check the roundness of the ferrule. The diameter at the end of the ferrule as I rotated the shaft varied about .005-.006. So if you don't consider working on anything unless it spins perfect, would you use something other than your lathe? not do the work and give it back? or have some sort of magic to make that spin perfectly in your lathe?

Kelly

 

[WheatCues]

I was doing some work on a shaft having trouble getting the end of the ferrule to turn true. It finally dawned on me to take my calipers and check the roundness of the ferrule. The diameter at the end of the ferrule as I rotated the shaft varied about .005-.006. So if you don't consider working on anything unless it spins perfect, would you use something other than your lathe? not do the work and give it back? or have some sort of magic to make that spin perfectly in your lathe?

Kelly

Once again... you make the appropriate adjustments until it IS true !!!

Collets are not 100% perfect becasue you have a vertical relief cut, so you keep tweaking it until it is perfect and which entails utilizing shims if neccessary !!!

The "magic" is years and years of experience and the inate abilty to instantly compensate for any surprises or imperfections that would otherwise be deemed as unacceptable tolerances !!!!

I am sure your statement is heartfelt and honest but you came off as a little condescending to me....




Sincerely, Eddie Wheat

 

[MVPCues]

Once again... you make the appropriate adjustments until it IS true !!!

Collets are not 100% perfect becasue you have a vertical relief cut, so you keep tweaking it until it is perfect and which entails utilizing shims if neccessary !!!

The "magic" is years and years of experience and the inate abilty to instantly compensate for any surprises or imperfections that would otherwise be deemed as unacceptable tolerances !!!!

I am sure your statement is heartfelt and honest but you came off as a little condescending to me....




Sincerely, Eddie Wheat

My apologies. Any posts I make in the morning may easily be interpreted as condesending due to staying up all night writing java code.

Kelly <wishing he has inate abilities to instantly do things to perfection...doing things right always seems to require time for him>

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

Once again... you make the appropriate adjustments until it IS true !!!

Collets are not 100% perfect becasue you have a vertical relief cut, so you keep tweaking it until it is perfect and which entails utilizing shims if neccessary !!!

The "magic" is years and years of experience and the inate abilty to instantly compensate for any surprises or imperfections that would otherwise be deemed as unacceptable tolerances !!!!

I am sure your statement is heartfelt and honest but you came off as a little condescending to me....

Sincerely, Eddie Wheat

I can't believe you insist, that all that is needed is your "MAGIC" of years of experience, to solve any problem. If you take a shaft & hand sand only one side of the ferrule & shaft, then you will have a dial indicator that will NEVER show a "PERFECT" zero reading. You can shim until that magic mirror on your wall, says that you are the greatest of them all, but it is not going to read zero. I don't think that you have read the posts correctly. By the way, make no mistake, this IS A CONDISENDING REBUKE of your perfectness...JER

 

[WheatCues]

Here We Go Again !!!

I can't believe you insist, that all that is needed is your "MAGIC" of years of experience, to solve any problem. If you take a shaft & hand sand only one side of the ferrule & shaft, then you will have a dial indicator that will NEVER show a "PERFECT" zero reading. You can shim until that magic mirror on your wall, says that you are the greatest of them all, but it is not going to read zero. I don't think that you have read the posts correctly. By the way, make no mistake, this IS A CONDISENDING REBUKE of your perfectness...JER

With all due respect Jerry, our "primary" foundation is wood we are working with here. NOT METAL, so the set of tolerances are completely different to begin with... and also why would you just sand one side of the shaft by hand ???? that seems a little bit weird to state just to make a point becasue it's not even a practical analogy in this issue as well as your "magic" reference due to the initial use of the word regarding another post !

Some of you are making a huge deal over replacing a simple ferrule... there isn't anything special or magical about it... cue repairs are like building cues, there's nothing hidden or secretive, why do you insist on making a big issue over it ???

I have worked on hundreds of shafts that chucked up perfect the first try... mabey I'm just lucky or perhaps it's becasue I have a lathe "Porper model-B" and collets that were designed specifically for cue repairs and never gave a second thought to not ever being able to zero a center with ALL repairs, even when I have to resort to a shim.... which is hardly ever !

And/or mabey it IS becasue I have over 18yrs experience doing complete and extensive repairs and DO know what I'm talking about here !!!

Wood in it's own accord is NOT perfect by nature, so we have to make it that way in order to use it in this application, which is usually done correctly at the time of manufacturing the cue/shaft... when it comes to the ferrule transition to the wood, there will always be a slight variance when installing the ferrule obviously.... that's why You have to use sandpaper to finish up the job so that everything is perfectly smooth and sealed, and also wetsanding is ideal for swelling up any imperfections the wood may have...

For you or anyone to have to bring out a pair of calipers to verify the few inches at the end of the shaft is spinning straight to replace a ferrule must have really bad eyes or you don't trust your judgement or mabey it's a little of both... It's simple ferrule replacement for crying out loud not rocket science !!!!

Once again, mabey I'm just lucky becasue I started doing this when I was 18yrs old. and turned it into a profession and always had the luxury of great vision and the feel of "center"

I did not offer my advice again, to get into a pissing contest over a simple ferrule replacement !

The person asked a genuine question on how to replace a ferrule, and I was the first reply to this thread that actually answered his question without a sarcastic retort or irrrelevent answer, and then you want to jump all over me because I simplified a ferrule replacement...

WE are lowly cuesmiths and cuemakers in a field that is not exactly regarded as an upper class sport to begin with, and the image that I display is very basic and upfront... I trim the fat off of the whole concept of repairs and building cues and tell it like it is... I hide nothing and only offer customers what I KNOW I CAN DO ! at a reasonable price !

I can see where some of you want the distinguishment and celebrity image and elitist respect with your cuemaking and repairs, and that is fine for you.... but I really don't care about "status" you have to charge too much for it, and alot of the pool players and enthusists can't afford it, so I will always be a thorn in some of my fellow cuemaker's side.....

I'm not trying to be an economy cuesmith/cuemaker either... I just can't justify all this mystical behind the scenes secretive crap of what we do here !

I did not post in this thread to open a discussion or debate about my abilities.. I simply offered an answer the thread starter wanted, SO PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS ABOUT ME.... I don't need the spotlight or attention, I'm a little too busy building reasonably priced cues for quite a few AZ 'rs at the present time and I'm sure they all wonder when I actually get work done, becasue I'm usually on here having to over-explain myself on a subject that I thought we were all on the same page to begin with !



Sincerely, Eddie Wheat "cuesmith/cuemaker wannabe !"

 

[JoeyInCali]

Nothing like a peeing contest between makers.

 

[scottycoyote]

how many cuemakers does it take to change a ferrule?


only 1, but the ferrule really has to want to change

 

[JoeyInCali]

how many cuemakers does it take to change a ferrule?


only 1, but the ferrule really has to want to change

10.
One to do it and 9 who'd claim they can do it better.

 

[WheatCues]

10.
One to do it and 9 who'd claim they can do it better.

ABSOLUTELY !!!

YOU COULDN'T BE MORE RIGHT WITH THAT STATEMENT !!!

"in my opinion of course... I woudn't want anyone else thinking I was speaking for them too"



- Eddie

 

[Cue Crazy]

LOL, after reading this, that old song "I believe in magic" popped in My head and I can't get It out.


Seriously though, Eddie, I get where Your coming from with that I think. Some things are just easier done to us then to explain how We do them in perfect detail. Somethings do just become second nature. I can understand that as much as anyone, because there are many things I do like that, including some parts of ferrule and shaft work, but I'm Having a hard time believing that a collet saves the day everytime. Maybe If more then half of the radius of the shaft is still round, but from My experiences, that's only about 15 to 20% of the time. If the collet is a longer one then that may increase the percentage, but not By much IMO.

You have nothing to prove to me, so don't mistake My post, I'm simply curious, not trying to rip into You. I have no issues with You My friend, just wondering how you came to that conclusion?

I'm nearing 40 years old, and been doing tip and shaft work since I was around 18-20 years old Myself. If there's a faster way of centering that produces the same results then I'm all ears, and truelly interested.

Here's My thing though, I'm really picky about taking the least amount of material off the shafts as possible, so that It has the same feel the customer is use to. If You have to use anything over 400grit to blend a ferrule, then that would be way too much for My taste, unless It was a really warped junky shaft. In florida with the humidity those are not that rare though, but my point is I really take My time when centering a customers cue for ferrule replacement, so that i remove the least amount possible when blending. I can't really explain everything I do either, but I'm trying to find a middle ground in My centering while maintaining a center line, and from My experiences that takes time, sometimes quicker then others, and sometimes slower. I know of no deadset way to instantly center all shafts. Some people may use independent chucks, but I use shims, and that takes time, and It also doesn't always provide perfect results on an indicator, because that would be impossible IMO with an out of round shaft, unless you sand or cut It round. A newer shaft that hasn't seen alot of play, Maybe, and they are alot easier when they center well on their own, but I only wish all of them were like that. I guess I'm just not as lucky.

Now I cut My ferrule much the way You explained leaving that tiny lip to sand away, but It's easy to undercut the ferrule diameter too much when you do things that way. I have that part down Myself after nearly perfecting a method that works well for me to get the ferrule sized correctly, but if I happen to go a bit too small, I'm not one to sand the wood to match, I cut the ferrule off and start all over again. Luckily I rarely have to do that.

Again, I hope you don't misunderstand My post, I could care less about any acomplishments you may or may not have. Personally I feel the less acomplished people think I am, the more impressed they are when they see My shaft & ferrule work, but I am truelly interested how You have so much luck centering for the best possible outcome, just have too much dought that the cetering is always that easy, and you left too much to mystery. Can't help but wonder how the MagicMan does It. LOL


Greg

 

[olsonsview]

making a silk purse from a sow's ear

If a customer brings me a shaft that needs a ferrule it is often painful to see obvious sanding marks. Hand sanding makes for a less than round shaft. If it has a low spot or two from sanding no collet in the world or four jaw chuck will make it run true without some hand work on my part to bring either the the ferrule or shaft wood into a close tolerance and fit. We need to take our nice new ferrule to an egg shape purposely to match an egg shaped shaft. Ideally we have enough shaft diameter to slightly reduce the OD and bring it back to round before we butcher our new ferrule. But that is only with the customers consent and hopefully his education on what not to do when he wants to clean his shaft in the future. Usually the really bad shafts are from casual players that want to save money by maintaining their own shafts. Many good players come to professionals for their tips and shaft cleanings. But sadly not all players come to us before they commit shafticide.

 

[Cue Crazy]

If a customer brings me a shaft that needs a ferrule it is often painful to see obvious sanding marks. Hand sanding makes for a less than round shaft. If it has a low spot or two from sanding no collet in the world or four jaw chuck will make it run true without some hand work on my part to bring either the the ferrule or shaft wood into a close tolerance and fit. We need to take our nice new ferrule to an egg shape purposely to match an egg shaped shaft. Ideally we have enough shaft diameter to slightly reduce the OD and bring it back to round before we butcher our new ferrule. But that is only with the customers consent and hopefully his education on what not to do when he wants to clean his shaft in the future. Usually the really bad shafts are from casual players that want to save money by maintaining their own shafts. Many good players come to professionals for their tips and shaft cleanings. But sadly not all players come to us before they commit shafticide.

Yes Sir, That's exactly right, I get alot of those, and the time It takes to straighten It out, usually eats any profit up. If they are only slightly out of round then obviously not as bad. On the other side of that, I've had alot of repeat customers after doing that for them, so sometimes in the long run It works out to go the extra mile. Some of them try to save money, but some of them tell me they just didn't have any decent repair guys where they were at before. Alot of people move here from other parts, and I guess not all of them had a repair guy to do their work for them. I believe them too, because some of them are expensive cues, and not all of them are tight wads. I've had some that actually give me a good tip after work was complete. Ofcoarse I get the ones that cry poor mouth too, to try and get me down in price, and alot of times their shafts will be some of the worst off, so I'm sure they have been sanding on them, and It's usually quite obvious.
If there's a way to instantly center shafts like that, then I need to know that trick, because I haven't figured that one out yet either. You basically have 2 choices, match the shaft to the round ferrule, or match the ferrule to the out of round shaft. Like you say It depends on what the customer wants as to how to go about It.

 

[WheatCues]

Answering your question !

LOL, after reading this, that old song "I believe in magic" popped in My head and I can't get It out.


Seriously though, Eddie, I get where Your coming from with that I think. Some things are just easier done to us then to explain how We do them in perfect detail. Somethings do just become second nature. I can understand that as much as anyone, because there are many things I do like that, including some parts of ferrule and shaft work, but I'm Having a hard time believing that a collet saves the day everytime. Maybe If more then half of the radius of the shaft is still round, but from My experiences, that's only about 15 to 20% of the time. If the collet is a longer one then that may increase the percentage, but not By much IMO.

You have nothing to prove to me, so don't mistake My post, I'm simply curious, not trying to rip into You. I have no issues with You My friend, just wondering how you came to that conclusion?

I'm nearing 40 years old, and been doing tip and shaft work since I was around 18-20 years old Myself. If there's a faster way of centering that produces the same results then I'm all ears, and truelly interested.

Here's My thing though, I'm really picky about taking the least amount of material off the shafts as possible, so that It has the same feel the customer is use to. If You have to use anything over 400grit to blend a ferrule, then that would be way too much for My taste, unless It was a really warped junky shaft. In florida with the humidity those are not that rare though, but my point is I really take My time when centering a customers cue for ferrule replacement, so that i remove the least amount possible when blending. I can't really explain everything I do either, but I'm trying to find a middle ground in My centering while maintaining a center line, and from My experiences that takes time, sometimes quicker then others, and sometimes slower. I know of no deadset way to instantly center all shafts. Some people may use independent chucks, but I use shims, and that takes time, and It also doesn't always provide perfect results on an indicator, because that would be impossible IMO with an out of round shaft, unless you sand or cut It round. A newer shaft that hasn't seen alot of play, Maybe, and they are alot easier when they center well on their own, but I only wish all of them were like that. I guess I'm just not as lucky.

Now I cut My ferrule much the way You explained leaving that tiny lip to sand away, but It's easy to undercut the ferrule diameter too much when you do things that way. I have that part down Myself after nearly perfecting a method that works well for me to get the ferrule sized correctly, but if I happen to go a bit too small, I'm not one to sand the wood to match, I cut the ferrule off and start all over again. Luckily I rarely have to do that.

Again, I hope you don't misunderstand My post, I could care less about any acomplishments you may or may not have. Personally I feel the less acomplished people think I am, the more impressed they are when they see My shaft & ferrule work, but I am truelly interested how You have so much luck centering for the best possible outcome, just have too much dought that the cetering is always that easy, and you left too much to mystery. Can't help but wonder how the MagicMan does It. LOL


Greg

I've pretty much explained to you guys my techniques and tricks... the rest IS experience and I can be very resourceful if needed but sandpaper and wetsanding is the key essentials to blending any imperfections the wood may have when it comes to "me" doing the work !

It is impossible not to remove some wood becasue I have to sandup to finish the process but it's a very minute amount "virtually unmeasurable" so please don't get me wrong here !

One more important aspect I think you should be aware of, out of all fairness here :

There are only 2 of us in this county who repair cues completely and a third who just does ferrules, tips, retapers and rewraps "he has a porper -b as well" so given that... no one really works on their own cues especially sanding the ferrules and shafts becasue we have all educated them on how that detroys the life and radial consistancy of the shafts diameter... so we usually don't have to deal with oval shaped and out of round shafts to begin with becasue everyone knows to bring them to the "professionals" if any alterations is needed !

And since our ferrule jobs start @ 10.00 and retapers start @ 15.00 that's really a hell of alot cheaper than having to by a new shaft becasue you chose to work on your own cue without the proper equipment and knowledge !



Sincerely, Eddie Wheat

 

[OneIron]

It had always been second nature to me to adjust the shaft and or collet in the spindle until It's perfectly true... I never even considered the imperfection aspect of it, only because there is always seems to be a variance and you just have to tweak it until it's perect !!!

I wouldn't even consider working on anything with my lathe including shafts and cues unless it spun perfect before addressing it....



Sincerely, Eddie Wheat

Absolutely! I sometimes spend several minutes chucking and rechucking on my Hightower until I get it spinning perfect. I do this for all work including basic tip installation.

 

[Lexicologist71]

Only 2 or 3 repairmen in the whole country? Could you explain that?

 

[KJ Cues]

Well, first off, he can't answer you because he's not allowed to play here anymore.
To your question, I believe he said COUNTY, not country.

KJ

 

[billy bones]

Lol

ive seen joe blackburn literally melt them off with a torch. scared the sh1t outa me

:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:that's funny as hell. Joe is as good as anyone out there when it comes to cue repair. I've known him a long time. He'll get the job done no matter what it takes. :grin:

 

[Michael Webb]

I have seen a lot of new constructed methods on ferrules lately, Trust me when I say, turn them down, stop melting before you get a big surprise that will cause you to replace the shaft.