How to get big money into pool?

[Teacherman]

Bitter.....doesn't describe it.

Owning a business in an industry that can't find is ass from a hole in the ground, has no leadership, has a professional group that is me me me, has a trade organization that claims it's the governing body, having amateur players support this, and then a base of clueless customers who learned the game in bars......................

Anger is a better word.

There is no question that an audience is needed to support the TV ratings. But, that audience, that you claim to be at 230,000 should be tens of millions by now. They've been in business since 1979. All they do is continually replace the players they've run off.

I live and operate a business in their back yard. The APA was at one time big here. It is now almost nonexistent. Small start up leagues have simply dominated it. The money the APA offers doesn't matter when the system is so far flawed that it is dishonest. And it will fail around the country as soon as other small leagues develop in those areas or when a national pool room league is formed.

The best system is one that is in house where the league operator can actually watch players play. Still not perfect, but an operator who plays a little pool can watch a player at the table and by his stance, stroke, shot selection, patterns, safety play etc etc etc can make a judgement real quick on a player. He can set a ball park from which that player can settle into his category.

To think 230,000 players carry a handicap beside their name, and few if any of them have been watched by someone who knows pool, and their handicap is determined by their match scores, and many do not try to win those matches, and you support the system proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are many suckers on this earth.

But...............what comes in the front door continually leaks out the back door because the system in place can not and will not work.

 

[DaveK]

10 years ago you couldn't find pool on TV.

Snooker has been televised in the UK for a lot longer than 10 years. The top snooker players make excellent money for winning and they get good endorsements. I know the thread is about 'pool', but the snooker folks have a single, strong organization, something that is missing from pool in NA where we seem to have many weaker organizations. The fragmentation in the industry causes many problems IMO. This is top level competition forums I'm speaking about, not general pool organizations.

Dave

 

[the kirkwood ki]

Apa?

Oh... and just to respond... That's part of the success of the APA is it's appeal to the beginner and to the advanced. Largest pool league in the world with over 230,000 players. That along with other pool venues helps develop a market, whereby pool can be appreciated on TV.

Take away those masses, and you lose pool from the TV.

$15,000 is big money? 230,000 players and all that is paid is $15,000? A BS
"ranking" system? Give me a break. The league stuff is ok for amatuers, but I don't want to see amatuers playing for $15,000. I want to see the best of the best playing for 1.5 mil or better like other sports. Let the APA continue to be the little league of pool that it is.

 

[pete lafond]

Bitter.....doesn't describe it.

Owning a business in an industry that can't find is ass from a hole in the ground, has no leadership,

I've made this statement about 3 months ago. This is one incident were I agree with you. There is no governing body establishing leadership, period. I once thought that the BCA was it. I learned to be wrong.

 

[FLICKit]

Bitter.....doesn't describe it.

Owning a business in an industry that can't find is ass from a hole in the ground, has no leadership, has a professional group that is me me me, has a trade organization that claims it's the governing body, having amateur players support this, and then a base of clueless customers who learned the game in bars......................

Anger is a better word.

There is no question that an audience is needed to support the TV ratings. But, that audience, that you claim to be at 230,000 should be tens of millions by now. They've been in business since 1979. All they do is continually replace the players they've run off.

I live and operate a business in their back yard. The APA was at one time big here. It is now almost nonexistent. Small start up leagues have simply dominated it. The money the APA offers doesn't matter when the system is so far flawed that it is dishonest. And it will fail around the country as soon as other small leagues develop in those areas or when a national pool room league is formed.

The best system is one that is in house where the league operator can actually watch players play. Still not perfect, but an operator who plays a little pool can watch a player at the table and by his stance, stroke, shot selection, patterns, safety play etc etc etc can make a judgement real quick on a player. He can set a ball park from which that player can settle into his category.

To think 230,000 players carry a handicap beside their name, and few if any of them have been watched by someone who knows pool, and their handicap is determined by their match scores, and many do not try to win those matches, and you support the system proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are many suckers on this earth.

But...............what comes in the front door continually leaks out the back door because the system in place can not and will not work.

LOL.... You know not what you are talking about.

Since you're so fond of watching, then you should know that APA players are watched as well, at the higher level tournaments.... that's one of the anti-sand bagging methods that are employed. Along with that there is actual recorded data and statistics that is used as well to help determine a player's ability.

As you said, your system isn't perfect, either.

I'm not knocking local leagues. There are some pluses and minuses to them as well.

Just live and let be.

Unless of course, it has to be your way or no way....

The people will decide for themselves.

 

[bruin70]

Snooker has been televised in the UK for a lot longer than 10 years. The top snooker players make excellent money for winning and they get good endorsements. I know the thread is about 'pool', but the snooker folks have a single, strong organization, something that is missing from pool in NA where we seem to have many weaker organizations. The fragmentation in the industry causes many problems IMO. This is top level competition forums I'm speaking about, not general pool organizations.

Dave

the mindset of a european(british) who watches snooker, bbc, and four hour movies, is quite different from that of an american audience that can't sit still to watch a barely two hour movie, and leaves a ballgame to avoid traffic.

 

[DaveK]

Bitter.....doesn't describe it.

Owning a business in an industry that can't find is ass from a hole in the ground, has no leadership, has a professional group that is me me me, has a trade organization that claims it's the governing body, having amateur players support this, and then a base of clueless customers who learned the game in bars......................

Anger is a better word.

There is no question that an audience is needed to support the TV ratings. But, that audience, that you claim to be at 230,000 should be tens of millions by now. They've been in business since 1979. All they do is continually replace the players they've run off.

I live and operate a business in their back yard. The APA was at one time big here. It is now almost nonexistent. Small start up leagues have simply dominated it. The money the APA offers doesn't matter when the system is so far flawed that it is dishonest. And it will fail around the country as soon as other small leagues develop in those areas or when a national pool room league is formed.

The best system is one that is in house where the league operator can actually watch players play. Still not perfect, but an operator who plays a little pool can watch a player at the table and by his stance, stroke, shot selection, patterns, safety play etc etc etc can make a judgement real quick on a player. He can set a ball park from which that player can settle into his category.

To think 230,000 players carry a handicap beside their name, and few if any of them have been watched by someone who knows pool, and their handicap is determined by their match scores, and many do not try to win those matches, and you support the system proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are many suckers on this earth.

But...............what comes in the front door continually leaks out the back door because the system in place can not and will not work.

Well said Teach, I agree whole-heartedly !

Dave, who plays in a non-handicapped but tiered singles league, where players are placed by the hall manager who is one of our best players ... I gave up on the handicapped team leagues

 

[Teacherman]

The only thing that will save pool is an idiot.

A guy with so much money and great interest in pool that he sets up a tour with big money. Takes his lumps as it develops and hopefully it turns into something big. Which, I must say, the odds aren't good.

It has to be so good and so big that the players have to play. So good and big and well run that they want to play. So good that they have to qualify to play. So big and good that he can say no to any player, group, sponsor when necessary.

The idiot has to be the king for a while, as he should be, it's his money.

As long as everyone needs everyone, nothing will happen because they all fear someone getting more than them.

 

[FLICKit]

The only thing that will save pool is an idiot.

The idiot has to be the king for a while, as he should be, it's his money.

As long as everyone needs everyone, nothing will happen because they all fear someone getting more than them.

Sounds like you are the savior we need.

 

[Teacherman]

...APA players are watched as well, at the higher level tournaments.... .

AFTER, they've unfairly knocked several teams and players out of the tournament. And these unfairly eliminated teams now decide to not play again. And the new marketing efforts only slightly out run the losses....sometimes they are less than the losses.

And we sit. And we talk. And we hope. And we speculate.

It's plain as day folks. I live it every day. Why you can't see it is beyond me.

It can be better.

Grow an audience. Promote a tour. That's all it takes........and we're so frickin helpless we can't do either.

Get me 10 pool rooms in each of the 50 states cooperating in in house league play with a national tournament and I'll bust the APA, BCA, VNEA, etc etc. I'll have a national league system second to none and I'll be the idiot to start the tour.

When the leaders of our sport show enough leadership to take it away from Budweiser and every smoke filled corner bar with a short shooting stick so you can deal with the lack of space, then we have a chance.

Until then, play for peanuts.

 

[the kirkwood ki]

Amen

Bitter.....doesn't describe it.

Owning a business in an industry that can't find is ass from a hole in the ground, has no leadership, has a professional group that is me me me, has a trade organization that claims it's the governing body, having amateur players support this, and then a base of clueless customers who learned the game in bars......................

Anger is a better word.

There is no question that an audience is needed to support the TV ratings. But, that audience, that you claim to be at 230,000 should be tens of millions by now. They've been in business since 1979. All they do is continually replace the players they've run off.

I live and operate a business in their back yard. The APA was at one time big here. It is now almost nonexistent. Small start up leagues have simply dominated it. The money the APA offers doesn't matter when the system is so far flawed that it is dishonest. And it will fail around the country as soon as other small leagues develop in those areas or when a national pool room league is formed.

The best system is one that is in house where the league operator can actually watch players play. Still not perfect, but an operator who plays a little pool can watch a player at the table and by his stance, stroke, shot selection, patterns, safety play etc etc etc can make a judgement real quick on a player. He can set a ball park from which that player can settle into his category.

To think 230,000 players carry a handicap beside their name, and few if any of them have been watched by someone who knows pool, and their handicap is determined by their match scores, and many do not try to win those matches, and you support the system proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are many suckers on this earth.

But...............what comes in the front door continually leaks out the back door because the system in place can not and will not work.

Amen to that. Danny D once said years ago that, "The problem with pool is you have a public that knows nothing and the media knows nothing." That was years ago and he was right then and is right now. Most people wouldn't know what good pool, I mean really good pool, is if it bit them on the ass. I have watched many, many, league players (most young punks trying to impress and equally pool clueless girlfriend) strut around and think they can play a little (most of them handicapped beyond belief) have their asses handed to them on a platter when faced up against your average shortstop.
It's all good though, I sure don't want them to go away, but I don't think of them as players, I think of them as suckers.

 

[DaveK]

The only thing that will save pool is an idiot.

A guy with so much money and great interest in pool that he sets up a tour with big money. Takes his lumps as it develops and hopefully it turns into something big. Which, I must say, the odds aren't good.

It has to be so good and so big that the players have to play. So good and big and well run that they want to play. So good that they have to qualify to play. So big and good that he can say no to any player, group, sponsor when necessary.

The idiot has to be the king for a while, as he should be, it's his money.

As long as everyone needs everyone, nothing will happen because they all fear someone getting more than them.

Not that I think the owners can be classified as 'idiots', but this was the way to success for Snooker and Formula One racing, both of which are big money franchises. Given the choice, I'd rather make the money that top F1 drivers make over the money that top snooker players make, but I'd prefer the risks of snooker at the same time Unfortunately nobody has offered me that choice

Dave

 

[FLICKit]

It's plain as day folks. I live it every day. Why you can't see it is beyond me.

It can be better.

Grow an audience. Promote a tour. That's all it takes........and we're so frickin helpless we can't do either.

Get me 10 pool rooms in each of the 50 states cooperating in in house league play with a national tournament and I'll bust the APA, BCA, VNEA, etc etc. I'll have a national league system second to none and I'll be the idiot to start the tour.

See... I knew you'd be the savior that you were referring to.

 

[FLICKit]

Amen to that. Danny D once said years ago that, "The problem with pool is you have a public that knows nothing and the media knows nothing." That was years ago and he was right then and is right now. Most people wouldn't know what good pool, I mean really good pool, is if it bit them on the ass. I have watched many, many, league players (most young punks trying to impress and equally pool clueless girlfriend) strut around and think they can play a little (most of them handicapped beyond belief) have their asses handed to them on a platter when faced up against your average shortstop.
It's all good though, I sure don't want them to go away, but I don't think of them as players, I think of them as suckers.

See... You guys are all talk. There are amatuer and advanced levels in the APA. You want to lump the amateurs that help comprise their membership and ignore the advanced ones which also help comprise their 230,000 members. There are advanced tournaments where there are no handicaps involved. Feel free to back up your claims of superiority by winning a no handicapped bracket.

Somehow I figure you will chicken out... Not able to put your money where your mouth is.... so never mind...

You go your way, and everyone else will go their way.

 

[FLICKit]

Teacherman you have so much BS, you're not even worth talking to anymore.

Have fun...

 

[FLICKit]

And we sit. And we talk. And we hope. And we speculate.

It's plain as day folks. I live it every day. Why you can't see it is beyond me.

It can be better.

Grow an audience. Promote a tour. That's all it takes........and we're so frickin helpless we can't do either.

Get me 10 pool rooms in each of the 50 states cooperating in in house league play with a national tournament and I'll bust the APA, BCA, VNEA, etc etc. I'll have a national league system second to none and I'll be the idiot to start the tour.

When the leaders of our sport show enough leadership to take it away from Budweiser and every smoke filled corner bar with a short shooting stick so you can deal with the lack of space, then we have a chance.

Until then, play for peanuts.

Poolplayers unite and install the Teacherman in-house league format throughout the nation, whereby there will be no cheating or sandbagging because Teacherman will present at every in-house league around the world to watch and rate the poolplayer's ability. This will not be a biased system, because teacherman doesn't have a biased bone in his body. If someone complains about any flaws in the Teacherman system, then they will be eliminated from the pool world, because Teacherman is never wrong that's not even an option.

Hmmm.... Even if we could get this grand Teacherman system to work, what do we do in another 50 or so years, when Teacherman is 6 feet under. Teacherman league format can't work without teacherman watching and rating everyone's ability. Can you still assess skill level if you're cryogenically frozen? Maybe just wink the left eye for beginners, and wink the right eye for advanced.

Thank god that the village idiot has come to save the pool community! Hoorah for Teacherman!!! Hip hip Hooray!

 

[sjm]

Perhaps it's time for a little business theory.

Pro pool is best understood as a product that hasn't sold very well. When a product having at least some merit doesn't sell, it is usually attributable to both of these two factors: a) the product itself needs to be improved or developed, and b) the product needs to be promoted better.

A business school student isn't likely to forget that product development and promotion are both fundamental aspects of marketing. The WPBA has shown a keen sense of this over the years, as well, and that's part of why they have enjoyed continual growth for over twenty five years. It seems, however, that male pro pool players have forgotten that product development is necessary.

Men pros and their advocates would have us believe that the blame for the fact that mens pro pool hasn't sold well lies entirely with those who try to promote it. The implication of holding this view is that the pro pool product is highly sellable exactly as is, and the disheartening popularity of this view evidences the lack of accountability that far too many men pro pool players have and feel for the current state of the mens pro game.

Mens pro pool needs product development but the men, through their behavior, show they don't think it matters. Far too many times, they fail to show up to pro matches, quit in the middle of matches, abuse fans, abuse equipment, abuse referees, dress unpresentably, use profanities, and show far too little self-esteem. Other times, you almost have to wonder whether the men are just trying to look disreputable. At the World Summit of Pool in 2003, one man was the tournament director, the referee, and also ran a sports book operation for the matches, accepting bets from players and fans alike. Conflict of interest, anyone?

I love mens pro pool, have invested quite a bit of money in it. I am proud of it and have no regrets. Still, I believe that until men pool players show they will commit themselves to improving the product called mens pro pool, the big bucks will never come to meet them.

Yes, the pro pool product has to be sold better, but the product could use some serious improvement, too. I note with dejection that the men have done little to improve the pro pool product over the years and seem, as a group to show little commitment to changing this.

 

[bruin70]

Perhaps it's time for a little business theory.

Pro pool is best understood as a product that hasn't sold very well. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a) the product itself needs to be improved or developed, and b) the product needs to be promoted better.
.

a)this encompasses too many things.
product image: pool has a bad rep, over a century old, and not likely to change anytime soon.

product: not here in the states. the USA is a big sport country, and even hockey isn't big enough. americans don't have the mindset to sit and watch two men walk around a 9' table. the game has its own inherent defficiencies.

product and celebrity: the success of the women is built on the fact that they're women..............and most of it is jeanette. ie, the only other two known women players are "that blonde" and "the tall gal with glasses". if the women are doing it right(and they are,,,,, better than the men), then pool is STILL on very shakey ground, because ultimately, jeanette is the only one benefitting from pool.

b) there's no "b" unless there's an "a"

"Pro pool is best understood as a product that hasn't sold very well."..........

location location location. there's no demographic to whom you can sell pool(we're talking the general public). before you sell your product, know your customer("the apprentice" ) and let's differentiate between the "pro pool" watching demographic and the "bar/pool league" demographic, as they are to mutually exclusive groups(for now, anyway).

 

[sjm]

a)this encompasses too many things.
product image: pool has a bad rep, over a century old, and not likely to change anytime soon.

product: not here in the states. the USA is a big sport country, and even hockey isn't big enough. americans don't have the mindset to sit and watch two men walk around a 9' table. the game has its own inherent defficiencies.

product and celebrity: the success of the women is built on the fact that they're women..............and most of it is jeanette. ie, the only other two known women players are "that blonde" and "the tall gal with glasses". if the women are doing it right(and they are,,,,, better than the men), then pool is STILL on very shakey ground, because ultimately, jeanette is the only one benefitting from pool.

b) there's no "b" unless there's an "a"

"Pro pool is best understood as a product that hasn't sold very well."..........

location location location. there's no demographic to whom you can sell pool(we're talking the general public). before you sell your product, know your customer("the apprentice" ) and let's differentiate between the "pro pool" watching demographic and the "bar/pool league" demographic, as they are to mutually exclusive groups(for now, anyway).

A well judged reply, Bruin. thanks for your insights.

 

[Teacherman]

...and let's differentiate between the "pro pool" watching demographic and the "bar/pool league" demographic, as they are to mutually exclusive groups(for now, anyway).

Explain this. If the league players are not part of your audience, who is the audience.