How to get big money into pool?
- Thread starter the kirkwood ki
- Start date
Teacherman said:
Our local ESPN sports channel just had the Iowa High School Bowling championships on this week. Very nice and it made me think that this would be a good direction for pool, but you're right, a bar league doesn't do good for this aspect of our wonderful game.
But, for the last 5 years, our area of about 1/2 million people did NOT have even one pool hall, just bars. So where did I play all the time?....bars, where else? At least I could play somewhere. However, thanks to Rory Hendrickson, we now have a great place and half of it is designed for the under 21 crowd. I'm hopeful that the youngsters will play often, perhaps even in organized competition.
Jeff Livingston
chefjeff said:
The issue with pool being connected to bars, is that in most establishments it's the liquor and food that makes the money. The pool tables make very little, but they keep people's attention long enough until they do finally eat or drink for the real money. One solution, is to disconnect bars & smoking from pool halls.
In our area there are pool halls that have opened up, that have no liquor licences. They don't even have a kitchen. The lack of alcohol is made up by the number of under 21 players that frequent the place. They charge $8/hour on the tables, with a few specials. They make it pretty fine, and are even expanding and opening other branches....
FLICKit said:
I edited my previous post after a minor computer crash.....
The last thing I'd want is an association of referees similar to high school sports. They may rank below BCA refs.
You've heard the saying......Best referees in the world are in the NBA....and they aren't very good. Go down the ladder from D league, DI, DII, DIII, juco, to high school............guess what........they aren't very good.
But, I can take the top 10 players out of my room, have them referee a vegas BCA or APA tournament and odds are very high that not one mistake would be made.
They have many (100's) and they are helpless.
If you are going to pay someone to referee you have to pay a quality player. Taking a test on the rules of 8 ball is the last qualification for a referee. Good hits/bad hits and other intricacies of the game are the need. Not recitation of rules.
Anyone can look up the rule in a book. Only very serious pool enthusiasts can make the right calls.
chefjeff said:
You do what you have to do. No rooms. Play in bars.
But, now that you have a place, give him your support. He has invested in the billiard industry............not the bar industry. Using pool to sell a Budweiser will not get us there.
I have a bar. I sell alcohol. I need the business to cover the overhead. But, I don't use pool to sell alcohol. My pool time is my bread and butter. My pool business is 50% pool 50% bar and grille. And for those of you that think that's hardly heavy pool, consider that most pool rooms are likely to be 10-20% pool, 80% bar and grille.
FLICKit said:
I've owned both kinds, with and without alcohol.
A very low ceiling on the without. Way more upside (and problems) on the with. But, with or without, sell pool to the youth. That is a fundamental key to the sports success.
My pool room has either directly or indirectly play a role in the development of 3 National Champions (junior and collegiate) and several other top finishers.
Not to mention all the others who take up the game and don't have that degree of success.
This doesn't happen in bars.
Not to mention all the others who take up the game and don't have that degree of success.
This doesn't happen in bars.
Nice supposition based on 0 facts.... but that's your style, so be it...Teacherman said:
There will be no way to resolve that, until you have a real world test. It would have to be a truly scientific test, absent of bias. Until then, many opinions (mostly yours) will fly, of course.
That's very obvious... Although technically it doesn't have to be a quality player. Many non-quality players are technically skilled enough to be able to referee in any sport. Sometimes experiences is a helpful factor, in situations. But most of refereeing deals with the theories of pool, which don't actually require any real world personal pool experience, as long as you can fully understand the theories. Of course, experience and playing is an obvious tool for helping understand and learn the theories.Teacherman said:
Of course on the same token many serious pool enthusiasts would also make horrible referees.Teacherman said:
Just like in any other sport. Players do not always make for great referees. Likewise players don't always make for the best coaches. Although the experiences it takes to be a player, can also be a powerful step or aid towards being a ref or coach.
Basically saying absolutes beware....
Many flaws on that path....
TomShaw-P&B
Registered
A Simple Answer
I have 25+ years of broadcasting background before coming to print and pool.
Money comes from corporate advertising.
Corporations want mass, upscale, male audiences 18-25.
TV is the only way to get mass audiences.
Pool on TV draws very good audiences - male 45+
End of story (until this nut is cracked).
Tom
I have 25+ years of broadcasting background before coming to print and pool.
Money comes from corporate advertising.
Corporations want mass, upscale, male audiences 18-25.
TV is the only way to get mass audiences.
Pool on TV draws very good audiences - male 45+
End of story (until this nut is cracked).
Tom
TomShaw-P&B said:
Brilliant.....lets put 6 beers in a carton and call it a 6 pack.....brilliant.
How do you suggest we develop a mass male pool audience between 18-25???
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Teacherman said:
Skipping over and avoiding the post with questions to you starting with
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacherman
More the same with BCA and VNEA Both are bar pool leagues which can't work longterm for the growth of the sport.
Can't work why? Simply because they are bar pool???
... with many other questions regarding weaknesses in your position
Avoiding the questions alltogether... brilliant.
FLICKit said:
Either you don't read well or you don't comprehend what you read. For then nth time, the real growth will start when the juniors are playing pool competitively.
And for the last 26 years, pool's grass roots attempt at growth has been centered in the bars. I wouldn't exactly call it successful when after 26 years you have one tenth of one percent of the population plaing pool competitively.
You will never get the pillars of the community interested in the sport if their venue is Joe's Corner Bar and Grille with 2 bar boxes in the smoke filled hoosier bar.
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Back to Mr. Shaws suggestion, that the 18-25 year old demographic is what the advertisers want, that is exactly my customer.
Who's customer......the pool room's customer......not the bars customer.....the pool room's customer.
I've mentioned before that the life blood of the pool room is 18-married. Which is almost identical to 18-25. That group of people is out almost every night of the week. Either in college or working but they go out almost every night for at least a few hours. The pool room is the perfect place for them.
Although the minors in this group can not drink, the room offers several types of entertainment including pool, music, sports and yes, their number 1 goal, a home for their heat seeking missles.
Of course, the majors in this group get to partake in the entire package.
The pool room is the perfect place to grow the demographic that the advertisers are looking for.
Who's customer......the pool room's customer......not the bars customer.....the pool room's customer.
I've mentioned before that the life blood of the pool room is 18-married. Which is almost identical to 18-25. That group of people is out almost every night of the week. Either in college or working but they go out almost every night for at least a few hours. The pool room is the perfect place for them.
Although the minors in this group can not drink, the room offers several types of entertainment including pool, music, sports and yes, their number 1 goal, a home for their heat seeking missles.
Of course, the majors in this group get to partake in the entire package.
The pool room is the perfect place to grow the demographic that the advertisers are looking for.
turquoisecrazy
Banned
Teacherman said:Back to Mr. Shaws suggestion, that the 18-25 year old demographic is what the advertisers want, that is exactly my customer.
Who's customer......the pool room's customer......not the bars customer.....the pool room's customer.
I've mentioned before that the life blood of the pool room is 18-married. Which is almost identical to 18-25. That group of people is out almost every night of the week. Either in college or working but they go out almost every night for at least a few hours. The pool room is the perfect place for them.
Although the minors in this group can not drink, the room offers several types of entertainment including pool, music, sports and yes, their number 1 goal, a home for their heat seeking missles.
Of course, the majors in this group get to partake in the entire package.
The pool room is the perfect place to grow the demographic that the advertisers are looking for.
This is so true.
Interesting viewpoints! One thing about demographics, though, that should be considered is the 45-and-over crowd generally has more money at their disposal to SPEND than the younger generation, 18 through 25. The bottom line with prospective corporate sponsors is how much money they will receive as a return on their investment.
Most pool players -- not all, but most -- do not reach a level of consistency in their game until they reach their mid twenties. There are exceptions to this fact, but I'm talking about the majority here.
A demographic study would be a good one to conduct as it pertains to pocket billiards. A corporate sponsor needs to know WHO is going to be spending the big bucks.
I think it comes down to name-brand recognition. To date, pool has NONE, with the exception of Jeanette Lee. You ask any of non-pool public about a famous pool player, and the response will be the Black Widow. Most have never heard of Earl Strickland or Corey Deuel, as two examples. The ladies' governing body of professional pool has made GREAT strides is accomplishing name-brand recognition. Their members are HAPPY as a whole, thanks to the fair and equitable practices, to include a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.
The existing lot of pool players is diminishing. Some male world champion players are unable to keep up with the rest of the pack that enjoys the benefits of a FLAWED ranking system. Without a product, namely the players themselves, pool as a sport will continue to suffer.
When I attend pool functions around the country, those which include LEAGUE and amateur players seem to be the successful ones. Having the top world champions isn't a draw. The majority of audiences at pro events consist of players themselves, family and friends, but do not seem bring in too much in the way of income for the promoter/organizers. Go to the Derby City Classic, Glass City Open, and Super Billiards Expo, and you will see the masses of the pool-playing public, to include pool enthusiasts and fans. Pro events are not a money-maker (IMO), not yet at least.
JAM
Most pool players -- not all, but most -- do not reach a level of consistency in their game until they reach their mid twenties. There are exceptions to this fact, but I'm talking about the majority here.
A demographic study would be a good one to conduct as it pertains to pocket billiards. A corporate sponsor needs to know WHO is going to be spending the big bucks.
I think it comes down to name-brand recognition. To date, pool has NONE, with the exception of Jeanette Lee. You ask any of non-pool public about a famous pool player, and the response will be the Black Widow. Most have never heard of Earl Strickland or Corey Deuel, as two examples. The ladies' governing body of professional pool has made GREAT strides is accomplishing name-brand recognition. Their members are HAPPY as a whole, thanks to the fair and equitable practices, to include a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.
The existing lot of pool players is diminishing. Some male world champion players are unable to keep up with the rest of the pack that enjoys the benefits of a FLAWED ranking system. Without a product, namely the players themselves, pool as a sport will continue to suffer.
When I attend pool functions around the country, those which include LEAGUE and amateur players seem to be the successful ones. Having the top world champions isn't a draw. The majority of audiences at pro events consist of players themselves, family and friends, but do not seem bring in too much in the way of income for the promoter/organizers. Go to the Derby City Classic, Glass City Open, and Super Billiards Expo, and you will see the masses of the pool-playing public, to include pool enthusiasts and fans. Pro events are not a money-maker (IMO), not yet at least.
JAM
I agree that we do need one organization that encapsulates all leagues, or otherwise a governing body. Not the BCA, Not the VNE Not the APA,.. These would be considered independent leagues that could be under the direction of this new organization. This new organization would belong to the players and businesses and will not dictate to the in-house league, only the rules of play.
Handicaps are at the discretion of the independent business operating the in-house league.
This new organization that governs billiards could hold tournaments that are handicap free. This avoids sandbagging. The BCA has a big draw and does not handicap their tournament.
A statement earlier in this forum indicated that the league players are the thrust to managing and organizing professional billiards. Through this organization is how they would do it, though a difficult task at best.
I do not care that the BCA has changed hands. They failed and no one has time for them to get it right. How many years have they tried? It's a very good league just as other leagues are too.
Handicaps are at the discretion of the independent business operating the in-house league.
This new organization that governs billiards could hold tournaments that are handicap free. This avoids sandbagging. The BCA has a big draw and does not handicap their tournament.
A statement earlier in this forum indicated that the league players are the thrust to managing and organizing professional billiards. Through this organization is how they would do it, though a difficult task at best.
I do not care that the BCA has changed hands. They failed and no one has time for them to get it right. How many years have they tried? It's a very good league just as other leagues are too.
Mine (above) is a wish that would require a large organization or business people with cash to make it happen. Billiards and their leagues has done nothing more than create pockets of party animals (not entirely wrong). I posted ealier about Earl S. at a golf coarse and in his 4-some they asked what he did for a living. He said, he's a professional pool player. The next statement they made was "So your a pool shark". Degrading huh?
As long as pool players are organized under bars, which they should continue leagues there, what image can we expect? If more families participated in pool were kids could play as well, I believe we would begin creating a generation change that would cause an improved vision of pool. Right now, find a baby sitter for the kids while mom and dad go to the bar to play pool. Nothing entirely wrong here, we just need more family participation. Pool has been through a lot of crap over the years, smokey pool rooms, gambling,.. How do bars distract pool's image from the past. They don't.
As long as pool players are organized under bars, which they should continue leagues there, what image can we expect? If more families participated in pool were kids could play as well, I believe we would begin creating a generation change that would cause an improved vision of pool. Right now, find a baby sitter for the kids while mom and dad go to the bar to play pool. Nothing entirely wrong here, we just need more family participation. Pool has been through a lot of crap over the years, smokey pool rooms, gambling,.. How do bars distract pool's image from the past. They don't.
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Teacherman said:Back to Mr. Shaws suggestion, that the 18-25 year old demographic is what the advertisers want, that is exactly my customer.
Who's customer......the pool room's customer......not the bars customer.....the pool room's customer.
I've mentioned before that the life blood of the pool room is 18-married. Which is almost identical to 18-25. That group of people is out almost every night of the week. Either in college or working but they go out almost every night for at least a few hours. The pool room is the perfect place for them.
Although the minors in this group can not drink, the room offers several types of entertainment including pool, music, sports and yes, their number 1 goal, a home for their heat seeking missles.
Of course, the majors in this group get to partake in the entire package.
The pool room is the perfect place to grow the demographic that the advertisers are looking for.
Now that was nicely said...so I bet it was nicely understood, too.
Using honey to catch flies....Brilliant!
JAM said: Most pool players -- not all, but most -- do not reach a level of consistency in their game until they reach their mid twenties. There are exceptions to this fact, but I'm talking about the majority here.
One problem with this, mixed with the 18-married demo., is...I hesitate to say it, but hustling. Nothing like a naive 20-something giving up his lowly week's pay again---and thus eventually the game itself---to a more experienced player. Not always, but I've seen players who love the game, come in for some fun, get "robbed" and then put their tails between their legs and not return. This saddens me.
I'm not saying gambling doesn't improve one's game or is even immoral (see previous threads about 6 weeks ago or so for a lot more on this). I'm just saying that some great players sometimes kill the goose before any eggs ever are laid. And what does this do to the sport as a whole? This is a question that had better be considered, too, imho.
Trying to see the biggest picture possible,
Jeff Livingston
Of course you wouldn't, with your ever consistent pessimistic blinders on, that's all you're gonna see. One tenth of one percent.... once again you use very unscientific information as a basis for your ever pessimistic bashing. That's pure stupidity. You, nor I, have any idea how big the pool community is (including national pool leagues, local pool leagues, in-house pool leagues and tournaments, consistent gambling pool players, pool regulars, irregular pool attendees and the occasional ball bangers). All of that would comprise the data necessary to determine the growth or recession of pool over the years. Unscientifically (at least I know when using real factual numbers), looking at all the categories over the last 10 years even, there would be a clear growth in the pool community. One sign of that, which would be easier to obtain would be the number of businesses/establishments with pool tables. Each and every facet of this pool community would be contributors to its growth and success, and to the direction to take for the future.Teacherman said:
Teacherman said:
In some of your other posts you finally at least made one positive suggestion of building growth in the younger generations. That would be a welcomed addition to the next generation of growth in the pool community.
Your consistent stance has been to try to tear down the already successful contributors to the pool community. That's pure stupidity and short sightedness. If you believe that pool growth should be fostered through a younger generation, then that's one approach of many. You'd be stupid to believe that's the only approach that must be taken, and therefore eliminate all others. Instead, you must do what it takes to foster growth of pool with the younger generations. In order for this to be successful, it'd have to go beyond the tiny little corner of the woods that you reside in. It would have to be a wave that traverses the country/continent/world. This has already begun. There are many avenues out there for youth involvement in pool. Could there be more? Very likely... This would have to be done via building up that pool community rather than tearing down. Your negativism will never succeed.
Very good post. You hold a much more comprehensive viewpoints of the solutions for the future (unlike Teacherman's stupidly simpleton viewpoints fraught with destruction and failure).JAM said:
Allison Fisher would also be well known, but I'd agree with you that Jeanette Lee would be the most recognized. Part of the success of the women's tour has been the organizations and sponsors which have backed and supported the women over the past years. Their visibility on ESPN (primarily) along with their presentability (good natured interaction and of course looks as well). They also have a quality whereby many non-professional men like to compare their own pool game with the allure that they could beat these women straight up. The women's skills and competition has strengthened significantly over the past years, and have therefore reduced the gap between the top men and top women. There's still more room for growth, but never know what the future may hold.JAM said:
This is a concept that Teacherman will not be able to grasp, so expect a bashing response here...JAM said:
